Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 515036 times)

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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #540 on: January 18, 2011, 08:48:18 PM »
These things happen. Like the debate on whether the paladin is high tier 5 or low tier 4.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #541 on: January 18, 2011, 09:20:42 PM »
These things happen. Like the debate on whether the paladin is high tier 5 or low tier 4.

The thing that bugs me is that the arguments against the sha'ir usually seem to be based on either misreading the class, not reading the class at all, or "gut feeling" from having heard bad things from someone else who misread the class.

The big example is saying "A wizard can choose to wait to memorize spells later in the day after casting divinations/whatever.  A Sha'ir requires a lot of extra time in order to get the same effect." (And no offense meant here to Nanshork, because that's a common misconception.) The thing is that the whole point with the sha'ir is that he fetches spells faster than a wizard, fast enough that leaving space open to fetch a spell here and there as the need arises is practical. The only time a sha'ir prepares slower is when he's fetching spells that a wizard doesn't even get, but people see that "hours" and somehow it spreads like a cancer into their reading of every other class feature, even people who otherwise go through wording with a fine-toothed comb looking for advantages.

Part of this is unclear writing. Because it uses the term "spells known", people assume that the sha'ir can't reasonably prepare other spells - but a sha'ir who fetches nothing but spells that _aren't_ on his known list will fill up his allotment in about the same time as a wizard takes to prepare. The feature should more reasonably be called "favored spells" or something, because all it does is make those spells fetch faster.

It would be like if someone argued "The paladin is low tier because using Smite Evil makes archdemons fly out of the sky and tear your head off instantly". What's bothersome isn't that the other person doesn't like the class, but that the argument is based on things that simply aren't there.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #542 on: January 18, 2011, 09:28:23 PM »
Well, I don't exactly buy the "dissipates harmlessly" means it doesn't count against your castings/day, which certainly makes the class weaker.

Given that the game assumes you'll end up fighting extraplanar foes, having a big extraplanar "kick me" sign isn't exactly the best class feature.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #543 on: January 18, 2011, 09:34:02 PM »
Well, I don't exactly buy the "dissipates harmlessly" means it doesn't count against your castings/day, which certainly makes the class weaker.

If your DM rules that dissipated spells count against your spells cast, that will obviously hurt the class, especially in low levels. However, I do not believe that is the most obvious or reasonable reading of the sha'ir's abilities as they are written.

Quote
Given that the game assumes you'll end up fighting extraplanar foes, having a big extraplanar "kick me" sign isn't exactly the best class feature.

Neither is having a big old "STEAL MY SPELLBOOK", but wizards survive somehow. The gen is a disadvantage in that it provides a hook if the DM wants to mandate a screwjob, but so is the spellbook or the conventional familiar - and if you don't have any of those three, the DM can still find a way to hit you with a screwjob if he wants to. The DM screwjob is not a part of the class as written, so... yeah. If the DM decides to screw you over for being a sha'ir with added penalties that aren't in the book, the sha'ir is clearly a weaker class under that DM.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #544 on: January 18, 2011, 09:39:26 PM »
A spellbook stays with you.  The only way somebody is going to get it is if they pry it out of your cold, dead, fingers.

Your gen is inherently out of your control in a way a spellbook isn't.

If I wanted to go up against a sha'ir, I know exactly where I'm going to hit him. 
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #545 on: January 18, 2011, 09:43:41 PM »
A spellbook stays with you.  The only way somebody is going to get it is if they pry it out of your cold, dead, fingers.

Your gen is inherently out of your control in a way a spellbook isn't.

If I wanted to go up against a sha'ir, I know exactly where I'm going to hit him. 

And if your DM rules that every time you send him out spell-fetching he is bombarded with assassins, yes, life is going to suck.

Prime32

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #546 on: January 18, 2011, 09:53:24 PM »
Given that the game assumes you'll end up fighting extraplanar foes, having a big extraplanar "kick me" sign isn't exactly the best class feature.
Neither is having a big old "STEAL MY SPELLBOOK"
Barbarians have a sign saying "CUT OFF MY ARMS" then. :p
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #547 on: January 18, 2011, 10:00:29 PM »
Barbarians have a sign saying "CUT OFF MY ARMS" then. :p

And sorcerers have "TAKE ADVANTAGE OF MY HERETOFORE UNDISCOVERED DRACONIC ALLERGY TO PEANUTS", yes.

The point is, the DM can use anyone's class features for a screwjob. At least, anyone with interesting class features - fighters are relatively safe from having their own class features turned against them!

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #548 on: January 18, 2011, 10:24:57 PM »
Hey, let's say you're Superman.  Everybody and their dog knows that your weakness is Lois Lane.

Now let's say that, in addition to his well-known kryptonite vulnerability, Superman will also lose his powers for a day if Lois is dead.


What is Lex Luthor going to do?



I'm willing to agree it's tier 1 if you're allowed to reprepare spells after your timer runs out for them, but I don't think that's supported by the text.  When a spell slot is expended, it's described as the energy being expended or lost; I don't really see that saying the power of your spell harmlessly dissipates is really that different.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #549 on: January 18, 2011, 10:31:33 PM »
I'm willing to agree it's tier 1 if you're allowed to reprepare spells after your timer runs out for them, but I don't think that's supported by the text.  When a spell slot is expended, it's described as the energy being expended or lost; I don't really see that saying the power of your spell harmlessly dissipates is really that different.

"The power to cast the spell harmlessly dissipates" can mean two things. "Power" can mean "the energy required" ("the flashlight is powered by the battery") or it can mean "the ability to do something" ("I possess the power of flight!"). If the ability to cast the spell harmlessly dissipates, nothing has been lost - nothing's been expended, you just need to get the ability up again.

If the energy of the spell harmlessly dissipates, of course, then... um... well, actually, there's no reason to assume that counts as the spell being cast. The text doesn't say it counts as a spell cast, and every time the sha'ir's limitation on casting is expressed it is explicitly spells cast; nothing is said about how many times you can send your gen to fetch a spell.

If you're worried about the fluff ("The spell's energy is lost! How can you cast a spell whose energy is lost?") perhaps the limitation is on your ability to channel the energy, not the gen's ability to fetch it.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #550 on: January 18, 2011, 10:33:15 PM »
When a spell slot is expended, it's described as the energy being expended or lost; I don't really see that saying the power of your spell harmlessly dissipates is really that different.

I have a hypothesis about this actually: The person who wrote the Sha'ir didn't understand Jack Vance's magic system (which DnD cribbed).


Hence the fucked up spellcasting rules behind it.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #551 on: January 18, 2011, 10:35:53 PM »
Quote
Once retrieved, a spell remains in a sha'ir's memory, like a wizard's prepared spell, until cast or until a number of hours pass equal to the sha'ir's character level.
So if it remains in his memory like a wizard's prepared spell, then losing it should prevent you from preparing in that slot again.  Just like a wizard.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #552 on: January 18, 2011, 10:50:02 PM »
Quote
Once retrieved, a spell remains in a sha'ir's memory, like a wizard's prepared spell, until cast or until a number of hours pass equal to the sha'ir's character level.
So if it remains in his memory like a wizard's prepared spell, then losing it should prevent you from preparing in that slot again.  Just like a wizard.

Hm. Out of curiosity, are there any extant effects which do this to wizards without the "as if the spell had been cast" note? I'm sure there are, because proofreading is not WOTC's strong suit, but the most popular one (negative levels) explicitly states that it's as if the spell had been cast.

(For what it's worth, there appears to be an extant clarification from Paizo that not losing your spell/day is the intention, but that's a rather weak argument to make.)

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #553 on: January 18, 2011, 11:14:12 PM »
I think the spellthief is a good example.

It even includes the quote "A spellthief must cast a stolen spell (or use its energy to cast one of his own spells) within 1 hour of stealing it; otherwise, the extra spell energy fades harmlessly away", which seems like a good parallel passage.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #554 on: January 18, 2011, 11:23:40 PM »
I think the spellthief is a good example.

It even includes the quote "A spellthief must cast a stolen spell (or use its energy to cast one of his own spells) within 1 hour of stealing it; otherwise, the extra spell energy fades harmlessly away", which seems like a good parallel passage.

I don't think that passage is exactly a parallel - or, if it is, it's one that favors my reading, since the spell energy fading harmlessly doesn't affect the spellthief's ability to steal and cast more spells.

Anyhow, you can make a case for the spells being count as cast on that grounds, and if the DM takes that reading, then yes, a low-level sha'ir is significantly weakened - I'm not sure whether that makes the sha'ir T2, or "tier 1 at mid-high levels, tier butt at low levels". If the DM takes the reading that it doesn't count as cast (which I also believe is a reasonable reading, and there is reason to believe is the intended reading), the sha'ir is inarguably T1.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #555 on: January 19, 2011, 02:36:25 AM »
Wait, where is the Sha'ir printed?

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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #556 on: January 19, 2011, 02:40:32 AM »
Wait, where is the Sha'ir printed?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #557 on: January 19, 2011, 10:27:10 AM »
I think the spellthief is a good example.

It even includes the quote "A spellthief must cast a stolen spell (or use its energy to cast one of his own spells) within 1 hour of stealing it; otherwise, the extra spell energy fades harmlessly away", which seems like a good parallel passage.

I don't think that passage is exactly a parallel - or, if it is, it's one that favors my reading, since the spell energy fading harmlessly doesn't affect the spellthief's ability to steal and cast more spells.

Anyhow, you can make a case for the spells being count as cast on that grounds, and if the DM takes that reading, then yes, a low-level sha'ir is significantly weakened - I'm not sure whether that makes the sha'ir T2, or "tier 1 at mid-high levels, tier butt at low levels". If the DM takes the reading that it doesn't count as cast (which I also believe is a reasonable reading, and there is reason to believe is the intended reading), the sha'ir is inarguably T1.
I believe the length of this argument belies the claim of the Sha'ir being "inarguably" Tier 1....
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #558 on: January 19, 2011, 10:28:49 AM »
While the class has theoretical Tier 1 potential, I still think the extreme hassle of actually playing one would prevent it from ever reaching its true potential until the higher levels, i.e. until a spell won't dissipate during a normal adventuring day.

For instance, at level 1 a Sha'ir will need to get new spells every hour, or basically constantly have his gen fetchign spells to replenish those that dropped out. (And seriously, saying the dissipated spells count as cast is ridiculous.)
Now a strict GM could ask a player to actually DO that paperwork, and also mention every time the Gen is sent out. And that... would just kill all the fun. And with rising levels, the player would potentially have to do more and more paperwork, what with rolling every fricking interval for the Gen to get the spell.
That's a mechanic that just doesn't work, as written. The only way to play it would be to say, hey, get your spells in the background, I don't give a damn until you get a spell you don't know or a divine spell.

Also, the Diplo check:
Let's say the Sha'ir has 18Cha at level 1, and 4 ranks in Diplo: The DC is 20. The bonus is 8, +1 for level 1, +2 for a known spells, -2 for a level 1 spell = 11. That's just over 50%. And don't tell me I should take a crappy feat (with the possible exception of Nymph's kiss) to improve that chance.

At level 10, the Shair has, say, 24 Cha, and 13 ranks. That's a +20 bonus, +2 for spells known, +10 for Shair levels = 32. So at level 10 you can definitely get a level 5 spell known (-10 to the check).  For an unknown arcane spell, you still get it. For an unknown divine spell you're back to rolling, after having to wait for X hours for the spell. (And a 5th level spell could take 11 hours to get!)

So while that mechanic is marginally better than a Truespeak DC, it still sucks.

The class is interesting, and has high theoretical potential, but only if you actually REMOVE all the hassle involved with it. In which case it's just a Tier 1 wizard with access to some divine spells.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #559 on: January 19, 2011, 02:18:19 PM »
So, I'm reading it over... it only casts on the Sorc/Wiz list plus a few hard to get divine spells (didn't notice anything amazing there).  It's basically a Sorcerer that then has access to the rest of the list, very much like a Sorcerer 5/Master of the Arcane Order 10 might have, really.  That seems pretty straight forward.  You also get a Planar Ally ability for genies, but considering you have Planar Binding anyway I'm not really sure what the point is there.

Also, note that the spells per day are spells cast, not spells retrieved.  I'm pretty sure if you let the spell go without casting it they don't count, per RAW.

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