Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 514989 times)

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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #520 on: January 18, 2011, 04:38:06 PM »
I would say between Tier 3 and 1, based on a quick glance
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #521 on: January 18, 2011, 05:04:37 PM »
What would be the tier on the Death Master(Dragon Compendium)?

Tier 2. I've had the most experience with the class (at least as far as I know; not many will speak up about it). While it is a prepared caster ala Clerics, they lack the spell support and are largely Core. Not much to work with, but they get a solid spell list.


The best trick is the double-lich. Dragonwrought Kobold Dracolich with LA buyback can, upon taking 20th level in Death Master, gain the benefits of the Lich template in addition to the Dracolich template.


In other words, "Yo dawg, I heard you like Liches..."


[spoiler][/spoiler]

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #522 on: January 18, 2011, 05:06:02 PM »
edit: ninja'd
What would be the tier on the Death Master(Dragon Compendium)?
Voila:
ardent (3)
Battledancer (5)
deathmaster (2)
divine mind (5)
dragon shaman (5)
dragonfire adept (4 with but slightly lower than warlocks)
eidolon (5)
eidoloncer (variable like a PrC, but technically a ghost only non ECL1 base class. Without casting to advance 6)
jester (high 4)
incarnate (3)
lurk (Definately tier 5. I wish they could actually do something)
montebank (4)
mystic (Tier 2, one of my favorites despite the fact that it is a favored soul minus the umph)
noble (Tier 5=weak sauce bard without the spells)
savant (low 4)
Sha'ir (2, but ... strange)
shadowcaster (4)
shugenja (3)
sohei (4)
soulborn (5)
spirit shaman (tier 2 because it tries to do too much and doesn't quite succeed)
totemist (4?)
Wilder (low 2, wishes it could be a psion)

Like Jaron said most every seperate variant is in the same tier, including:[spoiler]
bardic sage
battle sorcerer
cloistered cleric
divine bard
domain wizard
druidic avenger
paladin of freedom, slaughter, tyranny and the Drag Mag ones
psionic artificer
savage bard
urban adept
thug
totem barbarian [UA kind]
urban ranger[/spoiler]

JaronK should I just throw up a reference thread? The mods haven't answered my thread resources subforum request and I don't know who moved in the you break it you buy it.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #523 on: January 18, 2011, 05:21:44 PM »
ardent (3)
Sha'ir (2, but ... strange)

Sorry if this has been talked out to death, but on what grounds is the sha'ir not T1? He gets full casting off the entire sorc/wiz list, and every sha'ir has the ability to access the full list to the same degree a wizard does. There are some weirdnesses in his preparation, and he has to re-prep a spell if he goes too long without casting it, but I'm not sure how a class with what amounts to full wizard casting can be non-T1.

InnaBinder

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #524 on: January 18, 2011, 05:53:36 PM »
ardent (3)
Sha'ir (2, but ... strange)

Sorry if this has been talked out to death, but on what grounds is the sha'ir not T1? He gets full casting off the entire sorc/wiz list, and every sha'ir has the ability to access the full list to the same degree a wizard does. There are some weirdnesses in his preparation, and he has to re-prep a spell if he goes too long without casting it, but I'm not sure how a class with what amounts to full wizard casting can be non-T1.
At a guess, I'd say there are too many potential situations where the Sha'ir is caught without the appropriate spells for a situation, relative to the Big Six of Tier 1.  Wizards get Scribe Scroll for free to help with those situations, Sha'ir don't.  Couple that with the short time that a low level Sha'ir has to adventure between the spells falling out of his memory, and it exacerbates the 15 minute workday scenario that many groups abhor.  Sure, at upper levels, they are pretty haus, but getting there is a lot more dicey than it is for the Big Six.  They can't change the world quite as easily as a Tier 1.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #525 on: January 18, 2011, 06:40:34 PM »
ardent (3)
Sha'ir (2, but ... strange)

Sorry if this has been talked out to death, but on what grounds is the sha'ir not T1? He gets full casting off the entire sorc/wiz list, and every sha'ir has the ability to access the full list to the same degree a wizard does. There are some weirdnesses in his preparation, and he has to re-prep a spell if he goes too long without casting it, but I'm not sure how a class with what amounts to full wizard casting can be non-T1.
At a guess, I'd say there are too many potential situations where the Sha'ir is caught without the appropriate spells for a situation, relative to the Big Six of Tier 1.  Wizards get Scribe Scroll for free to help with those situations, Sha'ir don't.  Couple that with the short time that a low level Sha'ir has to adventure between the spells falling out of his memory, and it exacerbates the 15 minute workday scenario that many groups abhor.  Sure, at upper levels, they are pretty haus, but getting there is a lot more dicey than it is for the Big Six.  They can't change the world quite as easily as a Tier 1.

"Caught without the appropriate spells" is the situation where the sha'ir is stronger than a wizard, though - he can fetch any spell in a couple of minutes at most, and rounds for his "known spells". For situations where you need the right spell and don't even have rounds to spare... well, there's combat, which you should fetch some spells for in advance anyway, and what else? Will a wizard always have a scroll scribed for those situations?

The sha'ir only exacerbates the 15-minute workday in that he needs to take a few minutes to re-fetch his spells when the fetched spells expire. (Technically, he doesn't actually need to stop the party - his gen is off doing all the work, so he can be doing whatever else he feels like during his spell fetching.) I suspect the argument against T1 sha'ir is rooted in the mistaken belief that he loses spell slots if he doesn't cast the spell, but reading the class he doesn't: he can cast a limited number of times per day like anyone else, but there's no indication that fetching a spell and letting it expire counts against that limit.

Am I saying the sha'ir is better than or as good as a wizard? No, not really. He gets new spell levels on the sorcerer schedule and he arguably can't have multiples of the same spell fetched at once (although he can fetch another copy once it's cast.) He's still a tier 1 by any reasonable reading, although he's lower on tier 1 than the wizard is.

InnaBinder

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #526 on: January 18, 2011, 06:49:54 PM »
A couple of rounds is often the difference between success and death in D&D 3.5.  Just sayin'.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #527 on: January 18, 2011, 06:59:10 PM »
A couple of rounds is often the difference between success and death in D&D 3.5.  Just sayin'.

Sure, and if you couldn't fetch spells in advance that would be a problem.

The thing is, we're not arguing about fetching spells now vs. having them prepared in advance, because sha'ir and wizards are equally able to have whatever spells they think they'll need prepared. You are saying that the reason sha'ir is T2 instead of T1 is because they get fast-prep instead of Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

Seriously. Read back over what you said.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #528 on: January 18, 2011, 07:01:04 PM »
Gen familiars are also far more of a liability than a spellbook is, since objects are easier to protect than creatures.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #529 on: January 18, 2011, 07:05:57 PM »
Gen familiars are also far more of a liability than a spellbook is, since objects are easier to protect than creatures.

They're easier to protect than familiars with at-will Plane Shift to GTFO at the first sign of trouble? If you're that paranoid, you can keep him in a Familiar Pouch when he's not fetching spells, I guess.

Seriously, guys, you're stretching for reasons to demote it a tier here. You have a class with full wizard casting delayed by a level, more or less. Yes, it has disadvantages compared to wizards. You can call it low T1 but are these seriously arguments against it being T1 at all?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #530 on: January 18, 2011, 07:09:56 PM »
A couple of rounds is often the difference between success and death in D&D 3.5.  Just sayin'.

Sure, and if you couldn't fetch spells in advance that would be a problem.

The thing is, we're not arguing about fetching spells now vs. having them prepared in advance, because sha'ir and wizards are equally able to have whatever spells they think they'll need prepared. You are saying that the reason sha'ir is T2 instead of T1 is because they get fast-prep instead of Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.

Seriously. Read back over what you said.
That's not what I said.  I said that, with Scribe Scroll, a Wizard has a spell that he doesn't typically prepare available to him as a move action (thanks to Handy Haversack et al) or full-round action by default, versus a Sha'ir having that same spell available to him in 1dHandful rounds.  Which scenario is likely to be more useful?

For Clerics and Druids, the useful spells not typically prepared are most often Cures (for Clerics) and Summons (for Druids), in my experience and in reading various PbP forums.  Hey, look!  They can automatically sub out their prepared spells for those respective choices, by default.  The Sha'ir?  Not so much.  They can get them, sure.  The time it takes could well make that Cure spell less apropos than a Raise Dead, though....

See also: TML's commentary about spellbooks relative to gens.
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Nanshork

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #531 on: January 18, 2011, 07:29:28 PM »
To me the Sha'ir is the arcane version of the Spirit Shaman (also tier 2), except the Sha'ir has limited spells known and its gen can fail to retrieve spells.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #532 on: January 18, 2011, 07:33:12 PM »
That's not what I said.  I said that, with Scribe Scroll, a Wizard has a spell that he doesn't typically prepare available to him as a move action (thanks to Handy Haversack et al) or full-round action by default, versus a Sha'ir having that same spell available to him in 1dHandful rounds.  Which scenario is likely to be more useful?

I would dare to suggest that if a single feat core feat, taken at level 1, using no unusual readings of its rules text, is sufficient to make a class Tier 1, that class should be considered Tier 1. After all, clearly if the feat is that much of a difference nobody would ever skip it. Assuming that you're arguing that the Scribe Scroll thing is why sha'ir aren't T1, anyway. And if it's not, why are you making such a big deal of it and what is the reason?

I'm sorry, but these arguments are starting to sound faintly ridiculous. The impression I'm getting is that "well, sha'ir isn't T1 because I have this sort of sense that it's a bad class" but no credible argument against it being T1 comes to mind.

To me the Sha'ir is the arcane version of the Spirit Shaman (also tier 2), except the Sha'ir has limited spells known and its gen can fail to retrieve spells.

Except that the sha'ir's "spells known" don't actually restrict what spells he can fetch. It only makes some of them fetch more quickly.

And failing to retrieve spells is vanishingly unlikely if you actually bother to maintain your diplomacy.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 07:34:48 PM by Benly »

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #533 on: January 18, 2011, 07:46:11 PM »
Another issue with the sha'ir: It takes a minimum of two hours to get any divine spell.  How can you properly prep ahead of time?  A wizard can choose to wait to memorize spells later in the day after casting divinations/whatever.  A Sha'ir requires a lot of extra time in order to get the same effect.

I'm not arguing tiers here, just ways in which it is inferior to a wizard.   :shrug
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #534 on: January 18, 2011, 07:50:06 PM »
Gen familiars are also far more of a liability than a spellbook is, since objects are easier to protect than creatures.

They're easier to protect than familiars with at-will Plane Shift to GTFO at the first sign of trouble? If you're that paranoid, you can keep him in a Familiar Pouch when he's not fetching spells, I guess.

Seriously, guys, you're stretching for reasons to demote it a tier here. You have a class with full wizard casting delayed by a level, more or less. Yes, it has disadvantages compared to wizards. You can call it low T1 but are these seriously arguments against it being T1 at all?
Oh, yeah, that's another thing.  Your class feature is going to be spending a bunch of time on another plane without any backup and could get eaten.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #535 on: January 18, 2011, 07:55:22 PM »
A charisma based caster that needs to keep up diplomacy? Oh noes the horror. While I havn't read the actual Sha'ir the sense I get it that it is like a sorcerer except they can swap out spells at will with pretty much no limit to how many they know. Some wonkyness keeps them weak at low levels, but wizards are not Tier one for their spectacular powers at level one either.

The biggest reason against the Sha'ir seem that it is one level behind the wizard when it comes to casting, hence I have to agree with the argument that Sha'ir are tier one material. As stated only combat spells (and feather fall, and possibly some similar emergency spells) need to be preped beforehand, in other situations you can spend a minute or two to fetch exactly the right spell.

Damn ninja's.
As to divine spells one can send ones familiar of while sleeping, that should do the trick. Having a bad way to prepare more spell choices than the wizard gets is still better than not having the option.

And if your GM will kill your familiar off for using a nessecary class feature then you need to reconsider.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #536 on: January 18, 2011, 07:57:20 PM »
Another issue with the sha'ir: It takes a minimum of two hours to get any divine spell.  How can you properly prep ahead of time?  A wizard can choose to wait to memorize spells later in the day after casting divinations/whatever.  A Sha'ir requires a lot of extra time in order to get the same effect.

I'm not arguing tiers here, just ways in which it is inferior to a wizard.   :shrug

It does take a minimum two hours to get any spell that isn't on the sorc/wiz spell list. How long does it take a wizard to prepare a spell that isn't on the sorc/wiz spell list? (Note that any tricks that add a spell to the class list work just as well for a sha'ir.)

Oh, yeah, that's another thing.  Your class feature is going to be spending a bunch of time on another plane without any backup and could get eaten.

Your DM can rule that the gen gets eaten offscreen. He can also rule that your spellbook gets space bookworms and is irrecoverable. There's no text anywhere indicating that either is likely to happen short of a DM-mandated screwjob.


So to be clear here, are we trying to argue that it's not the spellcasting with full and complete access to the sorc/wiz list that makes the wizard T1?

Nanshork

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #537 on: January 18, 2011, 08:00:28 PM »
Question: What the fuck does it matter if some people think it's Tier 2 and others Teir 1?  That's what I really want to know.  PlzBreakMyCampaign put it in that tier so why not PM him about it to get his reasons?
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #538 on: January 18, 2011, 08:02:54 PM »
Question: What the fuck does it matter if some people think it's Tier 2 and others Teir 1?  That's what I really want to know.  PlzBreakMyCampaign put it in that tier so why not PM him about it to get his reasons?

I was curious and I think it belongs in T1. And then when I asked, suddenly there was an outpouring of vitriol and frankly baffling arguments against it.

Nanshork

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #539 on: January 18, 2011, 08:31:06 PM »
Fair enough.
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