Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 515060 times)

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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #460 on: January 05, 2011, 08:16:42 PM »
I guess this gets into what it takes to be tier 1-2.

So what amounts to a beefed up feat and the ability to be decent in melee drops the druid a tier and a halfish?
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #461 on: January 05, 2011, 10:44:54 PM »
Tier 3 is, in its own way, more powerful than tier 2. Tier 2 is capable of breaking the game in a very few ways, though outside of those few ways it might be pretty useless. Tier 3s are useful in damned near every situation you can think of, and are basically never rendered moot in any situation.

It's not that the druid 'drops' two tiers as much as the fact that it moves over to the side and down a bit.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #462 on: January 05, 2011, 10:51:58 PM »
Well, it's more that tier 2 encompasses any character class with a limited gamebreaking trick.  A tier 6 class could become tier 2 with the addition of (sp) simulacrum, for example.
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #463 on: January 05, 2011, 11:19:12 PM »
So that leads to the definition of game breaking trick then.

I've been thinking of them of a binary yes or no abilities like.
Force cage--> Can you teleport? Yes--> Keep playing
 No? Die
 
This is a bit of an over simplification as there are other ways to get out of Forcage, like Disjunction, but the point mostly stands.

Same with things like Gate+reverse teleport, obscene grapple checks, or damage. 

Not all tricks being equal, XP free gate is better than a lot of things, and Forcage+Dimensional Anchor>Forcage.

uber charge is probably the weakest of this sort of thing with it being mitigated by miss chance, stopped by bad terrain, jaunt, high AC, some feat chains, reach, a level 1 fighter crying,  other things.
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InnaBinder

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #464 on: January 06, 2011, 09:18:43 AM »
So that leads to the definition of game breaking trick then.

I've been thinking of them of a binary yes or no abilities like.
Force cage--> Can you teleport? Yes--> Keep playing
 No? Die
 
This is a bit of an over simplification as there are other ways to get out of Forcage, like Disjunction, but the point mostly stands.

Same with things like Gate+reverse teleport, obscene grapple checks, or damage. 

Not all tricks being equal, XP free gate is better than a lot of things, and Forcage+Dimensional Anchor>Forcage.

uber charge is probably the weakest of this sort of thing with it being mitigated by miss chance, stopped by bad terrain, jaunt, high AC, some feat chains, reach, a level 1 fighter crying,  other things.

While there's nothing inherently wrong with your examples, "game-breaking tricks" can be defined much more broadly than this.  A sizable portion of D&Ders would probably call Power Word: Pain game-breaking at 1st level, while Alter Self and Glitterdust often get the nod as game-breaking 2nd level spells (which are easily attainable at level 1).  One need not skip to the end of the spell levels to find broken, or nigh-broken, stuff.
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #465 on: January 06, 2011, 11:23:07 AM »
I would put power word pain and launch bolt in the uber damage catagory for there level.

 Glitterdust and Alterself I'm currently putting down as merely overpowered.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #466 on: January 06, 2011, 09:51:03 PM »
PsyWar + Recharge = hmm ...

I'd say a PsyWar trying to do this would be:
slightly below (psywar) average from levels 1 to 4
below to very below average at level 5, preparing for level 6
recharge at level 6 (!!) , otherwise has a very poor underlying skeleton
lots of possible broken options from level 6 on
starts to recover a decent build underneath the recharge, say around level 11
Fades at the top end, as in unlimited 6s vs. good 8s and 9s
So ...
levels 1 to 5  = Bad
levels 6 to 10 = Hi Tier 1
levels 11 to 15 = possibly very broken
levels 16+ = I'd rather be a full caster

I don't see how overall , this ends up being Tier 1 (overall).

Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #467 on: January 06, 2011, 10:29:55 PM »
It doesn't. A recharging Psywar is just at the top end of Tier 3, as before, because he's still only doing Psywar tricks, even if all the time.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #468 on: January 07, 2011, 05:31:29 PM »
Sweet ... (thread killer ?) ... trying to avoid that.


Turning up the tricks quotient, does put the PsyWar higher.
Lets say:
Normal PsyWar from level 1 to level 6
At level 7 the party Psion fests a PsyRef on the PsyWar
PsyWar 7 as half of a recharge duo, is just one feat.
That's still a good normal PsyWar, but with recharge
Later the Psion 13+ makes Powerstones for the PsyWar to use
above it's normal power level, but still on the PsyWar list = use them.
So ...
levels 1 to 6 = normal Tier 3-ish
levels 7 to 12 = near broken
levels 13+ = Tier 2-ish top end over Tier 1-ish structure

Guesstimating an average of Tier 2, but with a broken buddy.
 

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #469 on: January 07, 2011, 06:48:02 PM »
Sweet ... (thread killer ?) ... trying to avoid that.
Heh, there are places where it's not nice to have the last word  ;).

Quote
Turning up the tricks quotient, does put the PsyWar higher.
Lets say:
Normal PsyWar from level 1 to level 6
At level 7 the party Psion fests a PsyRef on the PsyWar
PsyWar 7 as half of a recharge duo, is just one feat.
That's still a good normal PsyWar, but with recharge
Later the Psion 13+ makes Powerstones for the PsyWar to use
above it's normal power level, but still on the PsyWar list = use them.
So ...
levels 1 to 6 = normal Tier 3-ish
levels 7 to 12 = near broken
levels 13+ = Tier 2-ish top end over Tier 1-ish structure

Guesstimating an average of Tier 2, but with a broken buddy.
 

I'm really having a hard time interpreting this. I'm sure there's satire somewhere in it... I just can't put my thumb on it, exactly.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #470 on: January 08, 2011, 07:09:46 AM »
Sweet ... (thread killer ?) ... trying to avoid that.
Heh, there are places where it's not nice to have the last word  ;).

Quote
Turning up the tricks quotient, does put the PsyWar higher.
Lets say:
Normal PsyWar from level 1 to level 6
At level 7 the party Psion fests a PsyRef on the PsyWar
PsyWar 7 as half of a recharge duo, is just one feat.
That's still a good normal PsyWar, but with recharge
Later the Psion 13+ makes Powerstones for the PsyWar to use
above it's normal power level, but still on the PsyWar list = use them.
So ...
levels 1 to 6 = normal Tier 3-ish
levels 7 to 12 = near broken
levels 13+ = Tier 2-ish top end over Tier 1-ish structure

Guesstimating an average of Tier 2, but with a broken buddy.
 

I'm really having a hard time interpreting this. I'm sure there's satire somewhere in it... I just can't put my thumb on it, exactly.

He's saying that having a friend makes a PsiWar more powerful (without needing buffs). A Psion can reformat a PsiWar's brain fairly early on, and the PsiWar can complement him by being half of an infinite PP loop.


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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #471 on: January 08, 2011, 05:17:05 PM »
Sinfire got me.

I wasn't going for satire (at least I don't think so).

We were close on the first PsyWar build.
The second was an attempt at a better recharge set-up.
Too many 6s on a slightly better build, doesn't do it,
Powerstone based 7s 8s and 9s, have an expensive material component + helper.
Still couldn't pull the Tier 1 tag on the whole thing.
Recharge in the right circumstances isn't that much of a problem.
otoh - a Psion with recharge, has all sorts of problems (which is necessary for the second psywar build).

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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #472 on: January 10, 2011, 06:07:41 AM »
Except it's still a specialised Psywar WITH a Tier 1 friend, which just... isn't the same as just a Psywar.

A recharging Psywar, or an infinicasting one via Incarnum, isn't really above Tier 3, I'm still convinced of that.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #473 on: January 10, 2011, 11:52:02 PM »
This thread is quite a good resource, though I have a few questions about how this information can be used, specifically in terms of balancing character with this information.  Now, I completely understand there is no universal fix for the low tier classes, but to save the complexity of reworking every class, I like the idea of a general house rule that gives benefits based on tier.

Yes, JaronK listed some reasonable options, though options three feels too restrictive and option 4 seems like it'd get a little complex, even if those two are likely the two easiest ways to achieve perfect balance.  Leaving options 1 and 2 he suggested:

1: Varying point buy seems reasonable, but making low tier classes powerful early on and still weak later on doesn't really address the problem.  Would it work to give about the same point buy, and balance it by low tier classes gaining level up attribute points more often?  If so, how often for each teir to have them balanced?

2: The partial gestalt idea actually seems like a fun and simple method... till one actually looks at the result you'd get.  If one gestalts two tier 5 classes, does one really get a result that can  be above tier 4 in power? Does it even result in a tier 4 all the time?  How is that making something like a fighter class playable in a game with tier 1 characters?  Big question is: How can the partial gestalt for balancing be salvaged?
>My best guess at how to salvage this house rule would be to have no tier 1 classes, tier 2s as normal, tier 3 gestalts with NPC, and tier 4 gestalts with tier 5.  Pity aobut losing tier 1 classes, and not even sure this will produce a semblance of balance.

Perhaps a combination of some form of partial gestalt and attribute growth modification would work best?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #474 on: January 11, 2011, 02:14:48 AM »
The problem with mixing Tier 2's in with Tier 3's is that the raw power of a Tier 2 is still there.  I, personally, see no problems with the mixing of Tier 3 and Tier 4 classes in a single game, although the Tier 5 and Tier 6 classes should either be regarded as NPC classes or simply re-written (the homebrew section likely has a few re-writes of each at a minimum).

As for Tier 1 and Tier 2 classes, they're fine with moderation.  Problem spells are those that give blanket immunities to full categories of effects or that cause crippling penalties with little or no means to circumvent them.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #475 on: January 11, 2011, 12:12:28 PM »
While it's not a perfect solution, one idea I've seen and have, myself, bandied about is messing with the XP gained based on which Tier a given character's class is.  Tier 3 characters use the tables in the DMG as is; each step above Tier 3 costs 10% more XP per level to increase ECL, while each step below Tier 3 costs 10% less XP per level to increase ECL.  That means it would cost a Wizard 1200 XP to get to 2nd level, while a Swashbuckler would only require 800 XP to get to 2nd level.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #476 on: January 11, 2011, 01:10:13 PM »
While it's not a perfect solution, one idea I've seen and have, myself, bandied about is messing with the XP gained based on which Tier a given character's class is.  Tier 3 characters use the tables in the DMG as is; each step above Tier 3 costs 10% more XP per level to increase ECL, while each step below Tier 3 costs 10% less XP per level to increase ECL.  That means it would cost a Wizard 1200 XP to get to 2nd level, while a Swashbuckler would only require 800 XP to get to 2nd level.

If we were talking about more dramatic increases/decreases, I believe it might have a better effect. So that basically when the Wizard hits level 10, the Fighter's well on his way to the late teens while the CW Samurai's already gone epic.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #477 on: January 11, 2011, 01:34:26 PM »

How do we calculate multiclass and hybrid PrCs?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #478 on: January 11, 2011, 01:40:30 PM »

How do we calculate multiclass and hybrid PrCs?
Per level usually works. However, the mundane dipper then gets pretty strong pretty quickly, offensively that is, usually. Also, as soon as you have level differences, the XP gains for lower ECL could well advantage the wizard again, and kill all the penalty.

What I would do is add or subtract from ECL according to Tier. Tier 1 and 2 get +2, and +1, respectively, Tier 3 is normal, Tier 4 is -1 and so on. Doesn't quite work at lower levels, because there is no ECL -2 for the commoner :).

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #479 on: January 11, 2011, 04:30:30 PM »
You should let the commoner get double levels.
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