Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 515066 times)

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Havok4

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #400 on: December 13, 2010, 09:46:07 PM »
Shadows can be quite sneaky

Sadly, you can't create them until well past the time when they'd be useful to you (for the most part), so at that point you're relying on the DM just sending them to you gift wrapped.  That seems... unlikely, unless the DM doesn't realize what's obviously about to happen.

JaronK

You can summon shadows using summon undead and than rebuke the spawn they create. At level 10 they would still be useful.

snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #401 on: December 13, 2010, 09:49:37 PM »
Even at high levels they're still useful suckers.

You just need a few more of them against some foes.  It's not like they aren't easily replaceable anyway.
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Havok4

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #402 on: December 13, 2010, 10:18:31 PM »
Although getting a ready supply of sacrificial victims could be difficult in a non-evil campaign, but DN have issues there already. And if there are enough enemies you might have difficulty controlling them. They still make great things to rebuke, low HD, nice special abilities, and they are hard to kill.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #403 on: December 13, 2010, 10:18:53 PM »

Let's be frank, at level 20, how significant ARE those bonuses, really?

+5 to damage? Throw in some multipliers, though as a baseline you want about twenty times as much. +5 to AC? AC stopped mattering ten levels ago, if not more. At that point, for the numbers to matter, they better be HIGH.
It is also giving its allies +5 to hit, and AC means that the enemies would be hitting you 25% less if you are still are on the random scale. And at this level they actually have 3 auras so its +5 to initiative, spot and listen.

What would you rather have, the samurai who can make the person who isn't immune to fear frightened, or a +5 bonus to several abilities?

I'm sure many classes would love to have a +5 bonus to those stats. The +5 to hit and damage can turn into +15 damage with power attack, with 3 or 4 hits that adds up to quite a bit.

Those bonuses mean nothing. Their class features have no relevance, and their Manifester Level is too low to actually make their powers useful past 7th level.
The Divine Mind is not a half caster like the paladin or ranger. It is caster level-4 which means that it has the same caster level as a psion if it takes practiced manifester. Which means that it can do several things just as well as it.

Meanwhile, the properly built bard is giving his allies +12 to hit/damage and +12d6 (enter energy damage of choice here) per attack, and he's barely even trying in that Inspire Courage isn't the only buff he can throw up. And that's BEFORE you consider War Weaver, for example.

Just as you can't really use the top as a baseline to define everything (except how close or far to the top it is), you can't use the bottom line, either. Granted, it's still relatively better than a CW Samurai, but not by so much that it's a different order of magnitude.
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #404 on: December 13, 2010, 10:34:58 PM »
I thought the hit/damage and d6 were exclusive of each  other? It is way higher than base, which is +5 hit and damage like the aura is.

And thats fine, I'm comparing it to the bottom because that is where people put it. I think it should be higher than T6, T4 would likely be too high unless the power list that I haven't really looked at is way better than what it looks like at 1st glance.

So, I'm saying that it should be in the same tier as the Fighter and Healer.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #405 on: December 13, 2010, 10:44:42 PM »
You can summon shadows using summon undead and than rebuke the spawn they create. At level 10 they would still be useful.

Huh, hadn't thought of that.  At what level can you use Summon Undead to get Shadows?

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Littha

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #406 on: December 13, 2010, 10:47:14 PM »
You can summon shadows using summon undead and than rebuke the spawn they create. At level 10 they would still be useful.

Huh, hadn't thought of that.  At what level can you use Summon Undead to get Shadows?

JaronK

5th level spell, so level 10.


If you really needed it I suppose you could get a scroll or wand though.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 10:53:52 PM by Littha »

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #407 on: December 13, 2010, 10:55:37 PM »
Right, so I'll stick with the idea that for a long time there you're going to have trouble with stealth as a DN, due to the vast majority of available minions being rather poor at it.

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Littha

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #408 on: December 13, 2010, 11:06:53 PM »
Right, so I'll stick with the idea that for a long time there you're going to have trouble with stealth as a DN, due to the vast majority of available minions being rather poor at it.

JaronK

You can also get ghouls with summon undead 3, they have ranks in move silently and hide and are intelligent enough to scout. Plus they create spawn, possibly even ghasts.

The issue here is getting people to die of the disease and not their attacks.

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #409 on: December 13, 2010, 11:08:28 PM »
Got ninja'd again, but getting people to die of diseases is pretty simple. But its not pretty and its definitely evil.
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Littha

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #410 on: December 13, 2010, 11:09:53 PM »
purposefully turning people into ghouls isnt exactly good anyway.


Also killing a commoner with a negative level will turn them into a wight... which create spawn and have a large move silently bonus.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2010, 11:19:13 PM by Littha »

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #411 on: December 14, 2010, 12:42:14 AM »
I thought the hit/damage and d6 were exclusive of each  other? It is way higher than base, which is +5 hit and damage like the aura is.

And thats fine, I'm comparing it to the bottom because that is where people put it. I think it should be higher than T6, T4 would likely be too high unless the power list that I haven't really looked at is way better than what it looks like at 1st glance.

So, I'm saying that it should be in the same tier as the Fighter and Healer.

Only if people are retarded.

It's just that with the Fighter you can at least CHOOSE one of the six ways from Thursday that you'll suck.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

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Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #412 on: December 14, 2010, 12:34:08 PM »
I thought the hit/damage and d6 were exclusive of each  other? It is way higher than base, which is +5 hit and damage like the aura is.

And thats fine, I'm comparing it to the bottom because that is where people put it. I think it should be higher than T6, T4 would likely be too high unless the power list that I haven't really looked at is way better than what it looks like at 1st glance.

So, I'm saying that it should be in the same tier as the Fighter and Healer.

Only if people are retarded.

It's just that with the Fighter you can at least CHOOSE one of the six ways from Thursday that you'll suck.
Its only +4 to hit and damage with the bard base. So the aura is actually better when not optimized.
I fail to see how being able to choose how you suck makes a class deserve to be a higher tier.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #413 on: December 14, 2010, 01:37:51 PM »
I thought the hit/damage and d6 were exclusive of each  other? It is way higher than base, which is +5 hit and damage like the aura is.

And thats fine, I'm comparing it to the bottom because that is where people put it. I think it should be higher than T6, T4 would likely be too high unless the power list that I haven't really looked at is way better than what it looks like at 1st glance.

So, I'm saying that it should be in the same tier as the Fighter and Healer.

Only if people are retarded.

It's just that with the Fighter you can at least CHOOSE one of the six ways from Thursday that you'll suck.
Its only +4 to hit and damage with the bard base. So the aura is actually better when not optimized.
I fail to see how being able to choose how you suck makes a class deserve to be a higher tier.

Indeed you do. But you can't actually improve on the aura, unlike with Inspire Courage.

Let's put it this way. Take a Warmage. At its core, it's a blaster. Even counting its class features (no RS) all it does is a single thing, albeit in several flavors. So all things considered, it actually has SOME alternatives for different situations (though all of them are a different flavor of X). Likewise, the fighter has the means to specialize in more than one school of offensive thought (or countering), so when your Gatling Tripper is up against a Colossal enemy, at least he (probably) still has Power Attack handy. It makes him suck less, though not necessarily rock at anything.

Really, what are the Divine Mind's options? How different from a subpar buffer can he get?

Comparing him to a Psion with Practiced Manifester is not exactly fair to him either. First, he needs to set a feat on fire. Second, he doesn't get as many tricks out of the bag that the Psion does. Heck, he practically doesn't get ANY tricks.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #414 on: December 14, 2010, 02:24:47 PM »
I thought the hit/damage and d6 were exclusive of each  other? It is way higher than base, which is +5 hit and damage like the aura is.

And thats fine, I'm comparing it to the bottom because that is where people put it. I think it should be higher than T6, T4 would likely be too high unless the power list that I haven't really looked at is way better than what it looks like at 1st glance.

So, I'm saying that it should be in the same tier as the Fighter and Healer.

Only if people are retarded.

It's just that with the Fighter you can at least CHOOSE one of the six ways from Thursday that you'll suck.
Its only +4 to hit and damage with the bard base. So the aura is actually better when not optimized.
I fail to see how being able to choose how you suck makes a class deserve to be a higher tier.

Indeed you do. But you can't actually improve on the aura, unlike with Inspire Courage.

Let's put it this way. Take a Warmage. At its core, it's a blaster. Even counting its class features (no RS) all it does is a single thing, albeit in several flavors. So all things considered, it actually has SOME alternatives for different situations (though all of them are a different flavor of X). Likewise, the fighter has the means to specialize in more than one school of offensive thought (or countering), so when your Gatling Tripper is up against a Colossal enemy, at least he (probably) still has Power Attack handy. It makes him suck less, though not necessarily rock at anything.

Really, what are the Divine Mind's options? How different from a subpar buffer can he get?

Comparing him to a Psion with Practiced Manifester is not exactly fair to him either. First, he needs to set a feat on fire. Second, he doesn't get as many tricks out of the bag that the Psion does. Heck, he practically doesn't get ANY tricks.
I agree that it isn't exactly fair, but I'm not trying to say that he's tier 2, or 3, or even 4. I'm saying that it is more of a tier 5. Maybe even low Tier 5. He is pretty much better than the samurai who is high T6, before adding in his powers.

 The 9 powers that it gets, no matter how bad he does them, should still leave him with some options. Compare him to the marshal or dragon shaman. It might not be as good, but its not going to be far behind. 
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #415 on: December 14, 2010, 11:36:45 PM »
Ah, I just saw that OOTS!  I feel all special.  And Rich was one of the primary designers for one of my favorite classes too...

And yeah, I just forgot to update it.  One of those "man, I should get around to this" sorts of things.  But I get distracted easily.

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #416 on: December 15, 2010, 09:22:05 AM »
I thought the hit/damage and d6 were exclusive of each  other? It is way higher than base, which is +5 hit and damage like the aura is.

And thats fine, I'm comparing it to the bottom because that is where people put it. I think it should be higher than T6, T4 would likely be too high unless the power list that I haven't really looked at is way better than what it looks like at 1st glance.

So, I'm saying that it should be in the same tier as the Fighter and Healer.

Only if people are retarded.

It's just that with the Fighter you can at least CHOOSE one of the six ways from Thursday that you'll suck.
Its only +4 to hit and damage with the bard base. So the aura is actually better when not optimized.
I fail to see how being able to choose how you suck makes a class deserve to be a higher tier.

Indeed you do. But you can't actually improve on the aura, unlike with Inspire Courage.

Let's put it this way. Take a Warmage. At its core, it's a blaster. Even counting its class features (no RS) all it does is a single thing, albeit in several flavors. So all things considered, it actually has SOME alternatives for different situations (though all of them are a different flavor of X). Likewise, the fighter has the means to specialize in more than one school of offensive thought (or countering), so when your Gatling Tripper is up against a Colossal enemy, at least he (probably) still has Power Attack handy. It makes him suck less, though not necessarily rock at anything.

Really, what are the Divine Mind's options? How different from a subpar buffer can he get?

Comparing him to a Psion with Practiced Manifester is not exactly fair to him either. First, he needs to set a feat on fire. Second, he doesn't get as many tricks out of the bag that the Psion does. Heck, he practically doesn't get ANY tricks.
I agree that it isn't exactly fair, but I'm not trying to say that he's tier 2, or 3, or even 4. I'm saying that it is more of a tier 5. Maybe even low Tier 5. He is pretty much better than the samurai who is high T6, before adding in his powers.

 The 9 powers that it gets, no matter how bad he does them, should still leave him with some options. Compare him to the marshal or dragon shaman. It might not be as good, but its not going to be far behind. 

Well, it's not like being better than the CW Samurai is THAT hard. He still doesn't compare to a Fighter, but I'd say he's pretty low on the power scale, even for Tier 5.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #417 on: December 15, 2010, 10:47:51 AM »
I thought the hit/damage and d6 were exclusive of each  other? It is way higher than base, which is +5 hit and damage like the aura is.

And thats fine, I'm comparing it to the bottom because that is where people put it. I think it should be higher than T6, T4 would likely be too high unless the power list that I haven't really looked at is way better than what it looks like at 1st glance.

So, I'm saying that it should be in the same tier as the Fighter and Healer.

Only if people are retarded.

It's just that with the Fighter you can at least CHOOSE one of the six ways from Thursday that you'll suck.
Its only +4 to hit and damage with the bard base. So the aura is actually better when not optimized.
I fail to see how being able to choose how you suck makes a class deserve to be a higher tier.

Indeed you do. But you can't actually improve on the aura, unlike with Inspire Courage.

Let's put it this way. Take a Warmage. At its core, it's a blaster. Even counting its class features (no RS) all it does is a single thing, albeit in several flavors. So all things considered, it actually has SOME alternatives for different situations (though all of them are a different flavor of X). Likewise, the fighter has the means to specialize in more than one school of offensive thought (or countering), so when your Gatling Tripper is up against a Colossal enemy, at least he (probably) still has Power Attack handy. It makes him suck less, though not necessarily rock at anything.

Really, what are the Divine Mind's options? How different from a subpar buffer can he get?

Comparing him to a Psion with Practiced Manifester is not exactly fair to him either. First, he needs to set a feat on fire. Second, he doesn't get as many tricks out of the bag that the Psion does. Heck, he practically doesn't get ANY tricks.
I agree that it isn't exactly fair, but I'm not trying to say that he's tier 2, or 3, or even 4. I'm saying that it is more of a tier 5. Maybe even low Tier 5. He is pretty much better than the samurai who is high T6, before adding in his powers.

 The 9 powers that it gets, no matter how bad he does them, should still leave him with some options. Compare him to the marshal or dragon shaman. It might not be as good, but its not going to be far behind. 

Well, it's not like being better than the CW Samurai is THAT hard. He still doesn't compare to a Fighter, but I'd say he's pretty low on the power scale, even for Tier 5.
True, but CW Samurai is kind of the pinnacle of T6. I'm thinking that the DM would be kind of a mix between the fighter and a healer. Not as good as the fighter in combat, but better than the healer. Not as the good as the healer as outside utility, but better than the fighter.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #418 on: December 15, 2010, 05:44:07 PM »
The divine mind is kinda like if the fighter and healer had a baby and decided to drop it on its head multiple times.

snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #419 on: December 15, 2010, 05:44:41 PM »
The divine mind is kinda like if the fighter and healer had a baby and decided to drop it on its head multiple times.
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