Tier System For Classes (Repost)

[Kuroimaken]

This is why endless wish tricks require calling, not summoning, efreetis.  Binders being T2 with the summoning vestige is because they can easily have many creatures up at all times, with a huge variety of abilities ready to go at a moment's notice (or, at most, 5 rounds notice).  This means stuff like endless healing, any movement mode needed, all varieties of detection... pretty much anything you might need.  Plus there's the vestige that lets Binders make magic items all they want, and that leads to all kinds of fun.

JaronK

Out of the abilities you mentioned, this is the least worrisome of them, and Buer can allow you to do that as well given enough time (plus, we all know nobody likes to be the healbot). But I agree, the ability to have multiple monsters with spell-likes at once does make it very potent. I just don't think all other online vestiges share the same potency.

This is why endless wish tricks require calling, not summoning, efreetis.  Binders being T2 with the summoning vestige is because they can easily have many creatures up at all times, with a huge variety of abilities ready to go at a moment's notice (or, at most, 5 rounds notice).  This means stuff like endless healing, any movement mode needed, all varieties of detection... pretty much anything you might need.  Plus there's the vestige that lets Binders make magic items all they want, and that leads to all kinds of fun.

JaronK

With regards to "many creatures at all times", it's important to note that the designer clarified in a later post on the Wizards boards that the power is intended to have a duration of 1 round/EBL, so you don't get the Hound Archon Army that initial literal readings of the power led to. This doesn't make the power any less versatile and you can still always have at least one creature (more depending on level) but it's not a pocket army.

I was always under the impression it was 1 round/EBL since the duration wasn't stated, so we defaulted to the spell.

[opticalshadow]

This is why endless wish tricks require calling, not summoning, efreetis.  Binders being T2 with the summoning vestige is because they can easily have many creatures up at all times, with a huge variety of abilities ready to go at a moment's notice (or, at most, 5 rounds notice).  This means stuff like endless healing, any movement mode needed, all varieties of detection... pretty much anything you might need.  Plus there's the vestige that lets Binders make magic items all they want, and that leads to all kinds of fun.

JaronK

With regards to "many creatures at all times", it's important to note that the designer clarified in a later post on the Wizards boards that the power is intended to have a duration of 1 round/EBL, so you don't get the Hound Archon Army that initial literal readings of the power led to. This doesn't make the power any less versatile and you can still always have at least one creature (more depending on level) but it's not a pocket army.

the problem with that is unless its released under an errata or some form of offical pubslish, it doesnt change that by raw it can be used either way, it may have been idk as i dont tend to have players or myself try to abuse the system into oblivion.

i had a question however reguarding an earlier character build, which would still require the use of another party member, but not a teir 1 or 2. now Dread necro is my fav class hands down, the things you can get away with are just silly while not game breaking (ever use a giant zombie burrower to make an underground bus? or hide in the chest of a giant skelly let him grapple and make touch atks?) this regaurds the pot throwing rouge.  now many times ive had the ability to have a legion of undead with little use for them, since dm's tend to shy away from letting me have them do much, but one thing they do alot is gather resources. while i dont think you could make the thousands needed, could you not have them gather, and with the right undead, make the potions for you? if you can ball park a few hundred skellies to gather supplies and some better undead to actually make them, even if the lab blows up, what are you out? two days of undead raiseing tops? it still doesnt help the build any for the rouge requireing another class, but it is more viable then trying to dodge creation rules with a wizard, although just as likly banned by a dm.

im not asking in a deffencive messure, more or less as a general curiosity for possible future game involving party members that rely on massive resource needs.

[snakeman830]

Eh, I'd just set up a mining company.  Your skellies don't complain about darkness, dangerous conditions, or even cave-ins.  They can also work around the clock, so you can drive competitors down with your low prices.  Turn those undead the DM won't let you carry around into a resource!

[Benly]

I was always under the impression it was 1 round/EBL since the duration wasn't stated, so we defaulted to the spell.

It's a logical assumption, but until that clarification was posted there were a depressing number of people who insisted that it absolutely had to mean the summons stuck around forever.

Anyhow, you're right that no other online vestige is nearly as important as Zceryll - in fact, I'd say that no other vestige from any source, of any level, gives as much as Zceryll does. In addition to the summoning, telepathy + mindsight is fantastic and the pseudonatural template gives a lot - scaling SR, DR, and energy resistance, and the type change to outsider grants darkvision and arguably full martial weapon proficiency. On most vestiges, that would be three or four distinct granted powers.

[Brainpiercing]

I was always under the impression it was 1 round/EBL since the duration wasn't stated, so we defaulted to the spell.

It's a logical assumption, but until that clarification was posted there were a depressing number of people who insisted that it absolutely had to mean the summons stuck around forever.

Anyhow, you're right that no other online vestige is nearly as important as Zceryll - in fact, I'd say that no other vestige from any source, of any level, gives as much as Zceryll does. In addition to the summoning, telepathy + mindsight is fantastic and the pseudonatural template gives a lot - scaling SR, DR, and energy resistance, and the type change to outsider grants darkvision and arguably full martial weapon proficiency. On most vestiges, that would be three or four distinct granted powers.

Hmm... but considering the power of summons - and it's questionable whether the summoning-buffing feats work for Binders - I don't think even a Zceryll abusing binder will be gamebreaking at all. While an endless amount of essentially free HP are all good and well, I think it adds nothing that a Dreadnecro can't do better, or at least just as well. Summons are mostly distractions and blockers, their combat abilities at higher levels won't put much of a dent in a BBEG. I think a necro is stronger, overall, and only Tier 3. So.. basically is a Zceryll Binder really Tier 2? I don't really think so.

[Benly]

Hmm... but considering the power of summons - and it's questionable whether the summoning-buffing feats work for Binders - I don't think even a Zceryll abusing binder will be gamebreaking at all. While an endless amount of essentially free HP are all good and well, I think it adds nothing that a Dreadnecro can't do better, or at least just as well. Summons are mostly distractions and blockers, their combat abilities at higher levels won't put much of a dent in a BBEG. I think a necro is stronger, overall, and only Tier 3. So.. basically is a Zceryll Binder really Tier 2? I don't really think so.

The big weight of the power of Zceryll's summoning isn't in a fight, to be honest. It's good in a fight, but on its own it's not a supreme fightmaster - you'll want to add in some other things to do when combat breaks out.

The big deal with Zceryll is the summons' spell-like abilities. It's not until you sit down and actually go through the available options that you realize just how many abilities that is. Heck, a number of the summonable options are actually full-fledged spellcasters themselves. Now, when you're an actual spellcaster, it's a losing proposition to spend a ninth-level spell to summon a twelfth-level wizard or cleric (or similar deals at lower levels). On the other hand, when you have absolutely no resource or opportunity cost to it, and can just poo out twelfth-level spellcasters all damn day to cast as many spells as they feel like, you've got something going on. "Can cast an unlimited number of cleric or wizard spells per day up to sixth level" is a pretty dang significant ability and that's only two summons - higher-level abilities are available if you feel like actually getting specific, and a lot of abilities that are just bizarre and unique. What it lacks in the quality of true ninth-level spellcasting, it makes up in sheer quantity and variety of lower-level casting.

[Kuroimaken]

Hmm... but considering the power of summons - and it's questionable whether the summoning-buffing feats work for Binders - I don't think even a Zceryll abusing binder will be gamebreaking at all. While an endless amount of essentially free HP are all good and well, I think it adds nothing that a Dreadnecro can't do better, or at least just as well. Summons are mostly distractions and blockers, their combat abilities at higher levels won't put much of a dent in a BBEG. I think a necro is stronger, overall, and only Tier 3. So.. basically is a Zceryll Binder really Tier 2? I don't really think so.

The big weight of the power of Zceryll's summoning isn't in a fight, to be honest. It's good in a fight, but on its own it's not a supreme fightmaster - you'll want to add in some other things to do when combat breaks out.

The big deal with Zceryll is the summons' spell-like abilities. It's not until you sit down and actually go through the available options that you realize just how many abilities that is. Heck, a number of the summonable options are actually full-fledged spellcasters themselves. Now, when you're an actual spellcaster, it's a losing proposition to spend a ninth-level spell to summon a twelfth-level wizard or cleric (or similar deals at lower levels). On the other hand, when you have absolutely no resource or opportunity cost to it, and can just poo out twelfth-level spellcasters all damn day to cast as many spells as they feel like, you've got something going on. "Can cast an unlimited number of cleric or wizard spells per day up to sixth level" is a pretty dang significant ability and that's only two summons - higher-level abilities are available if you feel like actually getting specific, and a lot of abilities that are just bizarre and unique. What it lacks in the quality of true ninth-level spellcasting, it makes up in sheer quantity and variety of lower-level casting.

Indeed, the first complaint most DMs have with Binder power level tends to be "they can SPAM this shit?", much the same as warlocks. We educated people know better, however. 

On a more serious level, one could argue that Echoing Spell makes Wizards Tier 0, as it essentially gives them unlimited spell slots. So the expenditure of spell slots becomes less troublesome then. Barring a few obvious exceptions (Polymorph, for example), most of the OMGWTFBBQ spells tend to be in the 7-9 range. So it's slightly less broken if you stop to think about it, though not by too much.

[Benly]

On a more serious level, one could argue that Echoing Spell makes Wizards Tier 0, as it essentially gives them unlimited spell slots. So the expenditure of spell slots becomes less troublesome then. Barring a few obvious exceptions (Polymorph, for example), most of the OMGWTFBBQ spells tend to be in the 7-9 range. So it's slightly less broken if you stop to think about it, though not by too much.

Well, you'll note I'm not saying they're on par with wizards, much less wizards engaging in infinite-spell-slot loops. However, if you can't break the game with an unlimited supply of level 12 wizards and clerics, plus unlimited use without component cost of a variety of fairly nice spells (raise dead, animate dead, and all the symbols off the top of my head, but there's a bunch more - those are just the ones that are useful very frequently so I remember them), then.. well, you're really not trying very hard.  And bear in mind that one of the reasons that warlocks and binders aren't as powerful as people first looking at them think is because normally you only get a few powers to spam incessantly, rather than being able to spam the entire lower end of the spell list incessantly. Even before you start getting proper casters on the Summon Monster list, there's a huge variety of stuff there from staples to niches.

[Kuroimaken]

On a more serious level, one could argue that Echoing Spell makes Wizards Tier 0, as it essentially gives them unlimited spell slots. So the expenditure of spell slots becomes less troublesome then. Barring a few obvious exceptions (Polymorph, for example), most of the OMGWTFBBQ spells tend to be in the 7-9 range. So it's slightly less broken if you stop to think about it, though not by too much.

Well, you'll note I'm not saying they're on par with wizards, much less wizards engaging in infinite-spell-slot loops. However, if you can't break the game with an unlimited supply of level 12 wizards and clerics, plus unlimited use without component cost of a variety of fairly nice spells (raise dead, animate dead, and all the symbols off the top of my head, but there's a bunch more - those are just the ones that are useful very frequently so I remember them), then.. well, you're really not trying very hard.  And bear in mind that one of the reasons that warlocks and binders aren't as powerful as people first looking at them think is because normally you only get a few powers to spam incessantly, rather than being able to spam the entire lower end of the spell list incessantly. Even before you start getting proper casters on the Summon Monster list, there's a huge variety of stuff there from staples to niches.

I suppose that's true. But really, how do you plan to break the game with Raise Dead? Practically anything else, I could understand (things like Fabricate, for instance)...

[lans]

Its not breaking the game by being able to do X its breaking the game by being able to do A-Z, and having the action economy of a full on party with the moderate ruling.

[Benly]

I suppose that's true. But really, how do you plan to break the game with Raise Dead? Practically anything else, I could understand (things like Fabricate, for instance)...

Raise Dead isn't a game-breaker, but componentless every-five-rounds Raise Dead is one of the many, many, many nice tricks you pick up as part of the Total Zceryll Package. It's just that on top of everything else, there is no reason anyone who dies within coming-and-asking-for-help distance of you should stay dead - bringing them back to life is literally less trouble to you than giving them a few GP for lunch would be.

[snakeman830]

I suppose that's true. But really, how do you plan to break the game with Raise Dead? Practically anything else, I could understand (things like Fabricate, for instance)...

Raise Dead isn't a game-breaker, but componentless every-five-rounds Raise Dead is one of the many, many, many nice tricks you pick up as part of the Total Zceryll Package. It's just that on top of everything else, there is no reason anyone who dies within coming-and-asking-for-help distance of you should stay dead - bringing them back to life is literally less trouble to you than giving them a few GP for lunch would be.

I just got an idea of a crazy guy employed by the military of a large country to run around battlefields bringing fallen soldiers back to life in order to fight on in the battle.  End result of rarely losing soldiers in war (yes, death weakens them, but it'sbetter than outright loss)

[opticalshadow]

I suppose that's true. But really, how do you plan to break the game with Raise Dead? Practically anything else, I could understand (things like Fabricate, for instance)...

Raise Dead isn't a game-breaker, but componentless every-five-rounds Raise Dead is one of the many, many, many nice tricks you pick up as part of the Total Zceryll Package. It's just that on top of everything else, there is no reason anyone who dies within coming-and-asking-for-help distance of you should stay dead - bringing them back to life is literally less trouble to you than giving them a few GP for lunch would be.

I just got an idea of a crazy guy employed by the military of a large country to run around battlefields bringing fallen soldiers back to life in order to fight on in the battle.  End result of rarely losing soldiers in war (yes, death weakens them, but it'sbetter than outright loss)

its not a bad concept, and could be quite lucritive, but the end result would just wind up more in your favour to just command the army and eitehr establish your own kingdom (which could still merc out your undead) or to take over enemy kingdoms which would net you more cash, since either way your the sole target to bring down for the undead, and you have to be involved since you control them. one of my favorite dread necro builds did just this, constructed a lair (i actually used the sunless citidel from way back when as the place, with a large custom built laird below the orginal, made with the goodies from dungeonscape) and my dm wouldnt let me walk around with an army, so i had a few bruiser body gaurds, a few cleric domanins (things like the travel domain help) and established a kingdom of the undead, i could merc my men out, wage war, or have a safe place to go if needed (it was the groups final mission to defeat me which they didnt know, but they would have to try and make it though this) and if things went really bad i could port back there (i also took a few dungeon lord(master?) levels for flavour) when it was time to camp i teled to my dungeon, left a nice big undead to gaurd the party.


thats what i love about DN, they may not be game breaking but i can with little work have my own game going on in the backround with a custom built party an objectives, its also a blast to harass your own team with undead attacks and never have them catch on.

[JaronK]

Out of the abilities you mentioned, this is the least worrisome of them, and Buer can allow you to do that as well given enough time (plus, we all know nobody likes to be the healbot). But I agree, the ability to have multiple monsters with spell-likes at once does make it very potent. I just don't think all other online vestiges share the same potency.

Sure.  But the point is that you can swap around to have whatever you want when you want it.  That endless healing thing?  You get it when you need it, then when you don't you get a new critter.  It's quite impressive, as opposed to Buer, who pretty much only gives the healing (a little more I know, but mostly just that).

I was always under the impression it was 1 round/EBL since the duration wasn't stated, so we defaulted to the spell.

I assumed the same.  It's not that you have a raging army, it's that you have three or four creatures up at once (that counts as many in my mind), losing one creature every five rounds and gaining a new one every five rounds.  A 15th level Binder can have 3 critters up at a time, 4 if they took the feat to use it once every 4 rounds.  A 17th level Binder can have 4, or 6 with that feat.  But each creature is perfectly tailored to the situation in front of you.  And yeah, it's the ridiculous number of spell likes you suddenly have access to on demand that makes it so nasty.

JaronK

[the_shadowmind]

Which monsters and what monster monster * are the level 12 cleric/wizard from?

[Benly]

Which monsters and what monster monster * are the level 12 cleric/wizard from?

The firre eladrin and ursinal guardinal, both from BoED and both on the SMIX list and therefore available to level 18 binders. Other casters are available earlier (Ghostwalk's artaaglith comes to mind, casting as a fifth-level cleric from SMVI with some handy abilities besides) and are always rather underleveled for when they're summoned - but, again, the point isn't to whip them out in a fight, it's to be able to summon them en masse at no resource cost with as much flexibility in their prepared spells as the DM lets you get away with.

[snakeman830]

I suppose that's true. But really, how do you plan to break the game with Raise Dead? Practically anything else, I could understand (things like Fabricate, for instance)...

Raise Dead isn't a game-breaker, but componentless every-five-rounds Raise Dead is one of the many, many, many nice tricks you pick up as part of the Total Zceryll Package. It's just that on top of everything else, there is no reason anyone who dies within coming-and-asking-for-help distance of you should stay dead - bringing them back to life is literally less trouble to you than giving them a few GP for lunch would be.

I just got an idea of a crazy guy employed by the military of a large country to run around battlefields bringing fallen soldiers back to life in order to fight on in the battle.  End result of rarely losing soldiers in war (yes, death weakens them, but it'sbetter than outright loss)

its not a bad concept, and could be quite lucritive, but the end result would just wind up more in your favour to just command the army and eitehr establish your own kingdom (which could still merc out your undead) or to take over enemy kingdoms which would net you more cash, since either way your the sole target to bring down for the undead, and you have to be involved since you control them. one of my favorite dread necro builds did just this, constructed a lair (i actually used the sunless citidel from way back when as the place, with a large custom built laird below the orginal, made with the goodies from dungeonscape) and my dm wouldnt let me walk around with an army, so i had a few bruiser body gaurds, a few cleric domanins (things like the travel domain help) and established a kingdom of the undead, i could merc my men out, wage war, or have a safe place to go if needed (it was the groups final mission to defeat me which they didnt know, but they would have to try and make it though this) and if things went really bad i could port back there (i also took a few dungeon lord(master?) levels for flavour) when it was time to camp i teled to my dungeon, left a nice big undead to gaurd the party.


thats what i love about DN, they may not be game breaking but i can with little work have my own game going on in the backround with a custom built party an objectives, its also a blast to harass your own team with undead attacks and never have them catch on.

I think you're confusing "Animaate Dead" with "Raise Dead".

[Benly]

I think you're confusing "Animaate Dead" with "Raise Dead".

Although in fairness, a binder can do both! 

[Agita]

Out of the abilities you mentioned, this is the least worrisome of them, and Buer can allow you to do that as well given enough time (plus, we all know nobody likes to be the healbot). But I agree, the ability to have multiple monsters with spell-likes at once does make it very potent. I just don't think all other online vestiges share the same potency.

Sure.  But the point is that you can swap around to have whatever you want when you want it.  That endless healing thing?  You get it when you need it, then when you don't you get a new critter.  It's quite impressive, as opposed to Buer, who pretty much only gives the healing (a little more I know, but mostly just that).

I was always under the impression it was 1 round/EBL since the duration wasn't stated, so we defaulted to the spell.

I assumed the same.  It's not that you have a raging army, it's that you have three or four creatures up at once (that counts as many in my mind), losing one creature every five rounds and gaining a new one every five rounds.  A 15th level Binder can have 3 critters up at a time, 4 if they took the feat to use it once every 4 rounds.  A 17th level Binder can have 4, or 6 with that feat.  But each creature is perfectly tailored to the situation in front of you.  And yeah, it's the ridiculous number of spell likes you suddenly have access to on demand that makes it so nasty.

JaronK

What's that feat's name, and where is it from? Can't say I've heard of it, is it from some Dragon mag?

[JaronK]

Rapid Recovery.  It's in Tome of Magic.  Any 5 round refresh binder ability now has a 4 round refresh instead.  Favored Vestige is a requirement, so you can only have this for one vestige.  Usually not worth it, but in this case it's REALLY worth it.

JaronK