Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 515061 times)

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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #240 on: June 15, 2010, 09:00:21 PM »
So is it basically he can move+attack effectively and has some okay skills then?
More or less.  Depending on the manuver selection, maybe some self-heal (Iron Heart Endurance), a way to get rid of undesireable conditions (Iron Heart Surge), much better saves (Diamond Mind save replacers), and even ways to aid allies (White Raven).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #241 on: June 15, 2010, 09:15:12 PM »
So is it basically he can move+attack effectively and has some okay skills then?
More or less.  Depending on the manuver selection, maybe some self-heal (Iron Heart Endurance), a way to get rid of undesireable conditions (Iron Heart Surge), much better saves (Diamond Mind save replacers), and even ways to aid allies (White Raven).
So a warblade can move+attack, decent skills, doesn't get killed/dominated, and when the opponent has flying he can use White Raven Tactics on another party member? +scent and a bit of  battle field control from thicket of blades
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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #242 on: June 15, 2010, 09:46:15 PM »
Pretty much.  The thing is that a Warblade has options.  That's why it's in Tier 3.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #243 on: June 16, 2010, 03:06:13 PM »
Exactly.  In any combat situation he'll be useful at the very least, since White Raven Tactics is always good.  In the vast majority he'll be quite useful, since he's got a ton of combat options.  And with his partial Int focus and decent skills, he's actually got things to do out of combat too.  Even his access to Mountain Hammer strikes means he can smash through doors, walls, and pretty much anything else in his way, which can be quite handy when you want a surprise entrance (or just want to get out). 

Basically, he's good in combat, and flexible in other areas, and is never really made useless (except perhaps when the party needs to be stealthy).

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #244 on: June 19, 2010, 06:51:45 AM »
would you consider dragonfire adept tier 4? did not see it listed.

Havok4

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #245 on: June 19, 2010, 01:40:39 PM »
would you consider dragonfire adept tier 4? did not see it listed.
Probably, it has a very limited set of options but can be a serviceable battlefield controller.

Waazraath

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #246 on: June 19, 2010, 04:22:02 PM »
I don't understand the position of the binder in the tiers, to be precise: why does access to the on-line vestiges makes binder tier 2? The ability to summon a critter every 5 rounds is really good & adds versatility, but the binder is good & versatile already. And unlimited critters don't offer the same game-breaking powers that explain why tier 1's are in tier one.

Just curious  :)

snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #247 on: June 19, 2010, 04:38:11 PM »
I don't understand the position of the binder in the tiers, to be precise: why does access to the on-line vestiges makes binder tier 2? The ability to summon a critter every 5 rounds is really good & adds versatility, but the binder is good & versatile already. And unlimited critters don't offer the same game-breaking powers that explain why tier 1's are in tier one.

Just curious  :)
Other online vestiges:

Astaroth: gain abonus item creation feat of your choice, using your Binder level as the caster level.  Craft items without knowing the spell (suck that Artificiers!)

Zercyll: no save, no SR daze attacks with no descriptor (even undead and constructs can be nailed with it) and MINDSIGHT.  In addition to summoning.

Triad: proficiency with all weapons and numerous abilities

These are just a couple.  There are more.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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Agita

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #248 on: June 19, 2010, 04:42:32 PM »
The summons also get spell-like abilities, effectively giving the Binder near-unlimited casting from a limited but decent list, without spending actions on it.
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Waazraath

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #249 on: June 19, 2010, 05:03:17 PM »
I'm aware of this, as well as the other online vestiges... and it's good, obviously, very, very good... but is it comparable to the earth shaking, game breaking power of tricks that wizards or sorcerers can pull off?

As I understand the tier systems, the tier 1's can pull off a lot of gamebreaking stuff, the tier 2's can do their fair share of gamebreaking stuff but less of it, while the tier 3's are simply pretty good in a lot of area's without turning the game upside down by creating demi-planes where the flow of time is different.

Havok4

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #250 on: June 19, 2010, 06:38:04 PM »
online vestiges:

Astaroth: gain abonus item creation feat of your choice, using your Binder level as the caster level.  Craft items without knowing the spell (suck that Artificiers!)

Zercyll: no save, no SR daze attacks with no descriptor (even undead and constructs can be nailed with it) and MINDSIGHT.  In addition to summoning.


You still need to get the spells cast from another source to get the magic item creation to work, and the daze attack requires a ranged touch attack and gives a save. Mindsight is very good though. Limitless summon monster SLAs can be quite game breaking if only in small ways, like summoning Djinni to get limitless amounts of permanent plant based poison or using hollyphants to get free raise dead (That allied army the bad guy just destroyed, not so dead now).

snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #251 on: June 19, 2010, 08:36:22 PM »
You're right.  Still, it's a ton more options.

Desharis: Animate Objects more or less at will can be extremely handy.

Abysm the Schismed, the Triad, and Arete: You gain access to a number of psionic powers.  This can be handy combined with Astaroth to craft some handy psionic items.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #252 on: June 19, 2010, 10:08:47 PM »
I'm aware of this, as well as the other online vestiges... and it's good, obviously, very, very good... but is it comparable to the earth shaking, game breaking power of tricks that wizards or sorcerers can pull off?

Sure.  Consider the fact that with Astaroth you can create items that do much of what makes the T1s overpowered.  You're basically an artificer when you want to be (but you still have to spend experience and all that).  Note however that Astaroth doesn't say you can make stuff without prerequisite spells, so it pretty much requires either being an Anima Mage or having another caster to help make the items, though some psionic items can be built with other vestiges.  The summons have all kinds of nasty spell likes (such as Mirror Mephits with their ability to give you Simulacrums... IIRC that takes Summon Monster 4).  Endless Simulacrums of yourself counts as a game breaker in my book!  Other summons give you things like unlimited healing without spending actions, for example.  Desharis is nasty too... it lets you effectively teleport to the last door in a dungeon if you roughly know where it is, starting at the first one (that's another one that will really screw up a campaign).  And animate objects combined with building your own custom objects to be animated is brutal... by level 8 you could animate a huge object, for example.  Build a hollow (to reduce cost) huge dwarvencraft quality obdurium centaur with chains on its back and you've got a nearly invincible tank (Hardness 32, four legs for stability, and the chains give it a bonus to grappling). 

Basically, the online vestiges grant a ton spell abilities straight out of the T1 caster books, and some of them you can spam all over the place.  Nasty.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #253 on: June 21, 2010, 12:39:43 PM »
I'm aware of this, as well as the other online vestiges... and it's good, obviously, very, very good... but is it comparable to the earth shaking, game breaking power of tricks that wizards or sorcerers can pull off?

Sure.  Consider the fact that with Astaroth you can create items that do much of what makes the T1s overpowered.  You're basically an artificer when you want to be (but you still have to spend experience and all that).  Note however that Astaroth doesn't say you can make stuff without prerequisite spells, so it pretty much requires either being an Anima Mage or having another caster to help make the items, though some psionic items can be built with other vestiges.  The summons have all kinds of nasty spell likes (such as Mirror Mephits with their ability to give you Simulacrums... IIRC that takes Summon Monster 4).  Endless Simulacrums of yourself counts as a game breaker in my book!  Other summons give you things like unlimited healing without spending actions, for example.  Desharis is nasty too... it lets you effectively teleport to the last door in a dungeon if you roughly know where it is, starting at the first one (that's another one that will really screw up a campaign).  And animate objects combined with building your own custom objects to be animated is brutal... by level 8 you could animate a huge object, for example.  Build a hollow (to reduce cost) huge dwarvencraft quality obdurium centaur with chains on its back and you've got a nearly invincible tank (Hardness 32, four legs for stability, and the chains give it a bonus to grappling). 

Basically, the online vestiges grant a ton spell abilities straight out of the T1 caster books, and some of them you can spam all over the place.  Nasty.

JaronK

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Binders fit the bill perfectly. They also require a rather short list of books to work.

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snakeman830

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Fighters vs. Barbarians
« Reply #254 on: June 29, 2010, 05:45:19 PM »
Most of us here at CharOp know that the Fighter is Tier 5, but the Barbarian is Tier 4.  Why is this?  At first glance, it would seem like the Fighter ought to be able to pull off whatever the barbarian can and then some thanks to his large numbers of feats.  However, this is not the case.

Both classes are clearly meant to fill basically the same niche of meatshieldmelee combatant.  However, the Barbarian just does it better.  Here is why I think the two are in different tiers.

1. Attributes2. Accuracy3. Damage
 Rage gives +3 to damage with a 2-handed weapon.  Greater increases it to +4.  Mighty is +6.  Add in the extra accuracy and the Barbarian dishes out more damage.  This is before you decide to use Lion Totem to up your damage significantly.

4. Durability5. Versatility
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #255 on: June 29, 2010, 05:59:11 PM »
The barbarian also generally has better Alternative Class Features like Whirling Frenzy, CC Lion Totem Pounce, UA/SRD Wolf Totem Improved Trip, and the Golaith's Mountain Rage.

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #256 on: June 30, 2010, 05:21:10 AM »
Sounds reasonable, though I think they tend to be optimizable to about the same tier,3. Tier 2 seems to be a bit of a ceiling that some classes( p.warrior, beguiler, and so on) can shatter and others(Incarnate, totemist) really can't.
Varying optimization levels is something that I have been toying around with for a while.

I'm going to re-read  it in the morning though.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #257 on: June 30, 2010, 05:30:26 AM »
Sounds reasonable, though I think they tend to be optimizable to about the same tier,3. Tier 2 seems to be a bit of a ceiling that some classes( p.warrior, beguiler, and so on) can shatter and others(Incarnate, totemist) really can't.
Varying optimization levels is something that I have been toying around with for a while.

I'm going to re-read  it in the morning though.
While I think optimizability (I don't think that's even a real word; but oh well) is outside the scope of this particular concept, I think you may be on to something -- maybe something that actually looks at the optimizability (look at that -- I did it again ... I gotta find a new word) of each class?

just a thought.

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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #258 on: June 30, 2010, 05:58:50 AM »
Most classes tend to optimize to relatively similar levels, so it didn't seem necessary.  The Barbarian does it a bit better than the Fighter (why hello thar, Lion Totem.  I think I'd like to charge now...), which is factored in.  Obviously some classes move more than others... Fighters do move quite a lot, while Warblades are pretty stable.  Some classes I just couldn't rank due to optimization results (the Truenamer being the obvious one).

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #259 on: June 30, 2010, 07:32:34 AM »

While I think optimizability (I don't think that's even a real word; but oh well) is outside the scope of this particular concept, I think you may be on to something -- maybe something that actually looks at the optimizability (look at that -- I did it again ... I gotta find a new word) of each class?

just a thought.

While there is merit in that idea, IF you start to differentiate the problem, length of progression must be a factor, too. Taking two levels of Fighter is Tier 3. Taking the third level drops him down back to 5, unless you know where you're going. Taking two levels of unconnected wizard is Tier... whatever.

However, I think there is a ceiling. NO mundane melee character will ever advance above Tier 3, no matter how much you cherry-pick abilities.

Second however: I don't think this was the aim of the Tier system. The key is finding the sweet spot in the system.

Most classes tend to optimize to relatively similar levels, so it didn't seem necessary. 

I don't generally agree. Perhaps one should factor in how hard it gets to optimise to - the desired level. I've seen plenty of inept wizard players. I've seen plenty of intept druid players (and been one myself). I've seen MORE inept fighter players. One of the last campaigns I played in crashed because the MUNDANE melee character (me) did too much damage at level 12 or so. Actually, because the GM was lazy, but... his excuse was that I did too much damage. So the individual experiences can be very different. I personally thought the character in question was perfect Tier 3, and NOT in the upper range of that.

So, I think druids are easier to optimize than wizards, and those again are easier than sorcs. Psions seem more complicated yet.

I think one of the goals one could work towards is defining the ease of reaching the area where satisfying play is possible. In a Tier 3 campaign, will it be easier to play a Beguiler than any mundane melee character. It will be easier to play a Barb than a fighter.

So... I have it in the back of my head that something like this was tried before. What happened to that?