Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 514936 times)

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Gods_Trick

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #40 on: August 11, 2009, 03:07:22 AM »

  Then Tier 2 means you can change the game, what was that phrase, Adders & Accountants, sure. And Tier 1's are classes that change the game better? You'd think in the spirit of it then to just put up Sorc as a weak T1.

Adders and Accountants has nothing to do with it.  Remember, the point of the system is to allow DMs and Players to achieve greater balance.  Now, consider what DMs actually care about, balance wise: how much does the class force me to change my campaign?  Weaker tier classes require the DM to change the campaign so that it plays to those classes' strengths, thus allowing them to shine (since players tend to like feeling like they're in the spotlight and can do something).  For example, one DM I know was recently complaining to me about how having a Fighter in the party meant he had to throw a combat into every gaming session, even when what we were doing didn't call for it, just because the Fighter players would get really bored otherwise.  Stronger tier classes force the DM to change the campaign to compensate for the classes' strengths.  If you want a low magic item campaign, you have to nerf the various T1 abilities that result in the party getting more wealth and more magic items.

Meanwhile, classes like the Sorcerer can indeed require the DM to make house rules and campaign changes to avoid having the campaign go off track, but it's FAR easier than keeping a Wizard in check.  After all, it sucks when you were trying to make a big epic fight with a Dragon and the darn Wizard just one hit TKOs it with Spectral Hand/Celerity/Shivering Touch, or when you're trying to make a campaign about mystery when the Wizard casts Contact Other Plane to learn about what the mystery is, or when you want to do an adventure about traveling and the Wizard just teleports the party to the destination.  At least with a Sorcerer, you generally know what tricks they've got up their sleeve, and can more easily compensate.  It's a whole different level.

Quote
  About Beguilers & DN's, the Druid is in it's tier because of Natural Spell. If you aren't using it your under-optimised. Why not apply that reasoning to classes who have the spell learning mechanic to use Arcane Disciple well?

No, the Druid is not in its Tier because of Natural Spell.  Natural Spell just lets the Druid be a melee powerhouse while simultaneously casting spells... it doesn't actually make the Druid capable of anything more, just capable of doing more things at once.  I've never said that lacking Natural Spell makes you under optimized.  I don't know where you got that idea, but you didn't get it from me.  What I said was that the system applies to equivalent optimization, so if you're comparing, for example, a Beguiler who's using Complete series books to get more spells known to a Sorcerer, then you should probably be comparing it to a Sorcerer who's doing the same thing.  Thus, a Beguiler with Arcane Disciple compares to a Sorcerer with Mage of the Arcane Order... and it's easy to see which one is stronger there.  One of them has a few game altering spells that are only really impressive at a few levels, and one has a few books of them that are impressive at all levels. 

It's really pretty straightforward.  And please try to read the system before commenting on it.  It's all spelled out nicely in the FAQ, including the very clear part about how it's measuring classes with equivalent optimization.  There's nothing about "under optimization" in there.  It doesn't matter if you optimize a lot or a little, as long as you do the same with each class.  The one class where optimization levels really change their standing is the Truenamer, which is marked separately specifically because of that.

JaronK

Huh. You know I've read your FAQ's and still assumed Natural Spell was implicit to why the Druid was T1. Knowing it's not, personally makes me think it doesn't seem T1. I guess that'll always be a problem on rankings but I'm trying to input what I know, not impugn the tiers themself. And no, that opinion about Natural Spell opinion was my own, formed from gaming and these boards.

My point ko'ed, thanks for taking the time to address my post.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2009, 03:24:16 AM »
Huh. You know I've read your FAQ's and still assumed Natural Spell was implicit to why the Druid was T1. Knowing it's not, personally makes me think it doesn't seem T1. I guess that'll always be a problem on rankings but I'm trying to input what I know, not impugn the tiers themself. And no, that opinion about Natural Spell opinion was my own, formed from gaming and these boards.

My point ko'ed, thanks for taking the time to address my post.
The reasons why druids are tier 1 are:

A.) Because with all of their buff spells AND wildshape, the druid itself tanks better than classes that specialize in tanking (heck, at early levels, a single class feature alone is better than fighters, and that's without the fighter's gear or the buffing animal companions get from their masters - and they get much better assuming the druid in question puts any effort into making them awesome).

B.) They're full casters that get 9th level spells. They get great de/buffs and good battlefield control spells, and they can also get access to spontaneously-casted minions (most of which they can buff to hell and back), and several of those minions get spells or spell-like abilities that, frequently enough, grant them access to the spell-lists of other classes (not even including the horrifically overpowered shapechange).

C.) They can be a sneaky class, if they like. In the right surroundings, they can find traps, and they can certainly use their Tiny and Diminutive sized forms to scout. They're not quite a rogue, but for a class that doesn't have 'scout' as part of their job description, they do a damned good job.

D.) And they can do all of the above simultaneously. They can't quite break reality into pieces, make the pieces sit and roll over, and automagically make it their bitch like a wizard can, but they come close. With a bit of op-fu, they can even play with the wizard's spell-list, if they want to.

Basically, any given druid (especially the ones that take Natural Spell - and really, what druid doesn't? - but even normal ones) can do so many different and varied and insanely powerful things at any given time that they're unholy terrors for DMs to try to reign in. Hence, tier 1.

And they get worse out of Core.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 03:28:41 AM by Lycanthromancer »
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2009, 04:21:56 AM »
Huh. You know I've read your FAQ's and still assumed Natural Spell was implicit to why the Druid was T1. Knowing it's not, personally makes me think it doesn't seem T1. I guess that'll always be a problem on rankings but I'm trying to input what I know, not impugn the tiers themself. And no, that opinion about Natural Spell opinion was my own, formed from gaming and these boards.

My point ko'ed, thanks for taking the time to address my post.

Ah, sorry if I came down a little hard.  I've had some trolls to deal with of late... makes it hard to tell the difference sometimes between an honest question and someone who just has something to prove.

And Lycan pretty much nailed why Druids are in Tier 1.  To add to point B, Druids gained new spells with most of the books that came out, meaning they just kept getting more options.  Druids generally have somewhat weaker spells than a Wizard, but they get access to absolutely all of their enormous list automatically, plus they have the ludicrously powerful Wild Shape.  And of course "somewhat weaker spells than a Wizard" is not exactly a weakness.  That's roughly like saying an explosive is "somewhat weaker than a nuclear bomb."

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ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2009, 09:41:29 AM »
I'll also add that druid are probably the easiest class to optimize. Even someone with low optimization and gameplay skills should be able to make and play an effective druid, which is nice considering the druid is sometimes known as the 'girlfriend class'.

juton

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2009, 09:27:44 PM »

D.) And they can do all of the above simultaneously. They can't quite break reality into pieces, make the pieces sit and roll over, and automagically make it their bitch like a wizard can, but they come close. With a bit of op-fu, they can even play with the wizard's spell-list, if they want to.

And they get worse out of Core.

Just a minor de-rail. Can Druids do this at lower levels, or is this some Shapechange/Black Ethergaunt trick?

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2009, 10:41:06 PM »

D.) And they can do all of the above simultaneously. They can't quite break reality into pieces, make the pieces sit and roll over, and automagically make it their bitch like a wizard can, but they come close. With a bit of op-fu, they can even play with the wizard's spell-list, if they want to.

And they get worse out of Core.

Just a minor de-rail. Can Druids do this at lower levels, or is this some Shapechange/Black Ethergaunt trick?
From levels 1-5 the animal companion can cover the melee parts single-pawedly while the druid entangles things.  From levels 6-20, natural spell.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2009, 10:58:12 PM »
Indeed, one shouldn't underestimate that darn puppy the Druids have.  The crazy thing is easily as good as many other melees on his own.

But they can't cast the Wizard/Sorcerer list without Polymorph shenanigans as far as I know (I could be wrong), so that part is strictly a high level high powered stunt.

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juton

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2009, 11:14:33 PM »

D.) And they can do all of the above simultaneously. They can't quite break reality into pieces, make the pieces sit and roll over, and automagically make it their bitch like a wizard can, but they come close. With a bit of op-fu, they can even play with the wizard's spell-list, if they want to.

And they get worse out of Core.

Just a minor de-rail. Can Druids do this at lower levels, or is this some Shapechange/Black Ethergaunt trick?
From levels 1-5 the animal companion can cover the melee parts single-pawedly while the druid entangles things.  From levels 6-20, natural spell.

Whoops, I meant to ask how can a Druid get access to Wizard's spells?

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2009, 12:24:34 AM »
Whoops, I meant to ask how can a Druid get access to Wizard's spells?

Right, I noticed that.  They can't without polymorph shenanigans, so in most games they can't, and at low levels they can't.  There are a few available tricks though, such as using Summon Monster 7 to get a Djinn, who can cast Major Creation (Permanent if applied to vegetable matter, so you could build a Soarwood zepplin, a Bronzewood Castle, or a moat of Black Lotus Poison if you wanted).

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2009, 12:36:42 AM »
Alternative source spell + Mage of the arcane order?
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2009, 12:38:46 AM »
Alternative source spell + Mage of the arcane order?

Ooooh.  Sneaky.  Hey, I wonder if there's a way to get Silent Image and then get into Shadowcraft Mage?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2009, 12:25:48 PM »
Alternative source spell + Mage of the arcane order?

Ooooh.  Sneaky.  Hey, I wonder if there's a way to get Silent Image and then get into Shadowcraft Mage?

JaronK
Contemplative + Turn Undead (Sacred Exorcist?) + Domain Spontaneity (the feat)? Interesting idea.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #52 on: August 12, 2009, 12:37:34 PM »
Doesn't the feat only let you cast each domain spell once a day?  If so that wouldn't do at all.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2009, 12:40:31 PM »
Doesn't the feat only let you cast each domain spell once a day?  If so that wouldn't do at all.

JaronK
No, it lets you cast them spontaneously by burning turn undead attempts. Contemplative by itself would only let you cast them once per day (like a normal cleric). If it only let you cast each one once, what would be the point? You can do that anyway...
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Samb

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2009, 12:59:06 PM »
Q:  Why is my favorite class too low?  It should TOTALLY be much higher!

A:  Remember, you're probably more experienced with your favorite class than with other classes.  Plus, your personality probably fits well with the way that class works, and you probably are better inspired to work with that class.  As such, whatever your favorite class is is going to seem stronger for you than everyone else.  This is because you're simply going to play your favorite class in a more skillfull way... plus you'll be blinded to the shortcomings of that class, since you probably don't care about those anyway (they match with things that you as a player probably don't want to do anyway).  As such, if I did this right most people should think their favorite class is a little too low, whether that class is Fighter or Monk or Rogue or whatever else.  If everybody looks at this system and sees that one or two of their favorite classes are a tier or so too low, but most other stuff looks about right, I consider it a success.[/roll]


This answer makes no sense. So if I think a class should be better/worse based on experience my experience makes me biased and hence wrong?  So no matter what I say you will be right?  Think about what you are
implying here: I (JaronK) don't know the class as well as you, which makes my assessment of the class more objective.

 So a cardiologist should not write a paper on the effectivness of CABG procedure because he knows the heart inside out?  So a psychiatrist shouldn't give a lecture on antidepressant because his interest in psychiatry makes him biased?

Can you see how rediculous your reasoning is?

I have to call BS on this.   Just because you play a class that suits your playstyle or personality does not change absolutely change your OP skills. You run under that assumption and then claim that you are not under such biases is insulting and invalid.  You should listen to people with more experience on a class since they have more..... Experience.  If what you want is a system that will truly reflect what you are trying to achieve then other peoples feedback and experiences should be taken into account and not dismissed as bias (of which many have accused you of).
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 02:14:59 PM by Samb »

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2009, 03:33:14 PM »
Q:  Why is my favorite class too low?  It should TOTALLY be much higher!

A:  Remember, you're probably more experienced with your favorite class than with other classes.  Plus, your personality probably fits well with the way that class works, and you probably are better inspired to work with that class.  As such, whatever your favorite class is is going to seem stronger for you than everyone else.  This is because you're simply going to play your favorite class in a more skillfull way... plus you'll be blinded to the shortcomings of that class, since you probably don't care about those anyway (they match with things that you as a player probably don't want to do anyway).  As such, if I did this right most people should think their favorite class is a little too low, whether that class is Fighter or Monk or Rogue or whatever else.  If everybody looks at this system and sees that one or two of their favorite classes are a tier or so too low, but most other stuff looks about right, I consider it a success.[/roll]


This answer makes no sense. So if I think a class should be better/worse based on experience my experience makes me biased and hence wrong?  So no matter what I say you will be right?  Think about what you are
implying here: I (JaronK) don't know the class as well as you, which makes my assessment of the class more objective.

 So a cardiologist should not write a paper on the effectivness of CABG procedure because he knows the heart inside out?  So a psychiatrist shouldn't give a lecture on antidepressant because his interest in psychiatry makes him biased?

Can you see how rediculous your reasoning is?

I have to call BS on this.   Just because you play a class that suits your playstyle or personality does not change absolutely change your OP skills. You run under that assumption and then claim that you are not under such biases is insulting and invalid.  You should listen to people with more experience on a class since they have more..... Experience.  If what you want is a system that will truly reflect what you are trying to achieve then other peoples feedback and experiences should be taken into account and not dismissed as bias (of which many have accused you of).

I can make a psychic warrior that can make a pretty good run at taking out The Big Five at higher levels if I really want to. Does that mean that psywars are Tier 1?
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The Lurker

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2009, 03:49:51 PM »
Q:  Why is my favorite class too low?  It should TOTALLY be much higher!

A:  Remember, you're probably more experienced with your favorite class than with other classes.  Plus, your personality probably fits well with the way that class works, and you probably are better inspired to work with that class.  As such, whatever your favorite class is is going to seem stronger for you than everyone else.  This is because you're simply going to play your favorite class in a more skillfull way... plus you'll be blinded to the shortcomings of that class, since you probably don't care about those anyway (they match with things that you as a player probably don't want to do anyway).  As such, if I did this right most people should think their favorite class is a little too low, whether that class is Fighter or Monk or Rogue or whatever else.  If everybody looks at this system and sees that one or two of their favorite classes are a tier or so too low, but most other stuff looks about right, I consider it a success.[/roll]


This answer makes no sense. So if I think a class should be better/worse based on experience my experience makes me biased and hence wrong?  So no matter what I say you will be right?  Think about what you are
implying here: I (JaronK) don't know the class as well as you, which makes my assessment of the class more objective.

 So a cardiologist should not write a paper on the effectivness of CABG procedure because he knows the heart inside out?  So a psychiatrist shouldn't give a lecture on antidepressant because his interest in psychiatry makes him biased?

Can you see how rediculous your reasoning is?

I have to call BS on this.   Just because you play a class that suits your playstyle or personality does not change absolutely change your OP skills. You run under that assumption and then claim that you are not under such biases is insulting and invalid.  You should listen to people with more experience on a class since they have more..... Experience.  If what you want is a system that will truly reflect what you are trying to achieve then other peoples feedback and experiences should be taken into account and not dismissed as bias (of which many have accused you of).

I can make a psychic warrior that can make a pretty good run at taking out The Big Five at higher levels if I really want to. Does that mean that psywars are Tier 1?
D&D isn't a PvP game.  It's a PvE game.  So, pretty darn good at taking out outsiders and dragons is impressive (because they generally are not glass bullets, unlike classed NPCs).

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2009, 04:10:31 PM »
Quote
D&D isn't a PvP game.  It's a PvE game.  So, pretty darn good at taking out outsiders and dragons is impressive (because they generally are not glass bullets, unlike classed NPCs).
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #58 on: August 13, 2009, 04:21:47 PM »
Q:  Why is my favorite class too low?  It should TOTALLY be much higher!

A:  Remember, you're probably more experienced with your favorite class than with other classes.  Plus, your personality probably fits well with the way that class works, and you probably are better inspired to work with that class.  As such, whatever your favorite class is is going to seem stronger for you than everyone else.  This is because you're simply going to play your favorite class in a more skillfull way... plus you'll be blinded to the shortcomings of that class, since you probably don't care about those anyway (they match with things that you as a player probably don't want to do anyway).  As such, if I did this right most people should think their favorite class is a little too low, whether that class is Fighter or Monk or Rogue or whatever else.  If everybody looks at this system and sees that one or two of their favorite classes are a tier or so too low, but most other stuff looks about right, I consider it a success.[/roll]


This answer makes no sense. So if I think a class should be better/worse based on experience my experience makes me biased and hence wrong?  So no matter what I say you will be right?  Think about what you are
implying here: I (JaronK) don't know the class as well as you, which makes my assessment of the class more objective.

 So a cardiologist should not write a paper on the effectivness of CABG procedure because he knows the heart inside out?  So a psychiatrist shouldn't give a lecture on antidepressant because his interest in psychiatry makes him biased?

Can you see how rediculous your reasoning is?

I have to call BS on this.   Just because you play a class that suits your playstyle or personality does not change absolutely change your OP skills. You run under that assumption and then claim that you are not under such biases is insulting and invalid.  You should listen to people with more experience on a class since they have more..... Experience.  If what you want is a system that will truly reflect what you are trying to achieve then other peoples feedback and experiences should be taken into account and not dismissed as bias (of which many have accused you of).
No, what he's saying is that the more you play a class the better you get with it. 

If it's your favorite class, you've probably made twenty or thirty characters, and so of course you're better at using it than normal.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #59 on: August 13, 2009, 04:55:00 PM »
Q:  Why is my favorite class too low?  It should TOTALLY be much higher!

A:  Remember, you're probably more experienced with your favorite class than with other classes.  Plus, your personality probably fits well with the way that class works, and you probably are better inspired to work with that class.  As such, whatever your favorite class is is going to seem stronger for you than everyone else.  This is because you're simply going to play your favorite class in a more skillfull way... plus you'll be blinded to the shortcomings of that class, since you probably don't care about those anyway (they match with things that you as a player probably don't want to do anyway).  As such, if I did this right most people should think their favorite class is a little too low, whether that class is Fighter or Monk or Rogue or whatever else.  If everybody looks at this system and sees that one or two of their favorite classes are a tier or so too low, but most other stuff looks about right, I consider it a success.[/roll]


This answer makes no sense. So if I think a class should be better/worse based on experience my experience makes me biased and hence wrong?  So no matter what I say you will be right?  Think about what you are
implying here: I (JaronK) don't know the class as well as you, which makes my assessment of the class more objective.

 So a cardiologist should not write a paper on the effectivness of CABG procedure because he knows the heart inside out?  So a psychiatrist shouldn't give a lecture on antidepressant because his interest in psychiatry makes him biased?

Can you see how rediculous your reasoning is?

I have to call BS on this.   Just because you play a class that suits your playstyle or personality does not change absolutely change your OP skills. You run under that assumption and then claim that you are not under such biases is insulting and invalid.  You should listen to people with more experience on a class since they have more..... Experience.  If what you want is a system that will truly reflect what you are trying to achieve then other peoples feedback and experiences should be taken into account and not dismissed as bias (of which many have accused you of).

I can make a psychic warrior that can make a pretty good run at taking out The Big Five at higher levels if I really want to. Does that mean that psywars are Tier 1?
D&D isn't a PvP game.  It's a PvE game.  So, pretty darn good at taking out outsiders and dragons is impressive (because they generally are not glass bullets, unlike classed NPCs).

Point was that The Big Five are the strongest 'creatures' in the game, except (possibly) for deities (maybe). If I can compete on that level with a class that's widely regarded as the quintessential tier 3 class, I can take down just about anything, dragons included.

That's just because I'm good with them, though. They're by no means tier 1 (or even tier 2), and yet I optimize them well by default, and thus they're stronger for me than the average player.

Doesn't mean they're not tier 3, just that I'm better with them than your average werebear.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 04:56:35 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]