Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 451860 times)

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InnaBinder

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #980 on: October 06, 2011, 03:53:05 PM »
Paladin 1 is the fastest route to Pun-Pun
What about the commoner?
Last I checked - and it's admittedly been a bit - Paladin works faster because of Pazuzu's "grant wishes to Paladins to make them fall FASTAR" fetish.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #981 on: October 06, 2011, 04:20:58 PM »
Paladin 1 is the fastest route to Pun-Pun
What about the commoner?
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #982 on: October 06, 2011, 04:31:21 PM »
Pazuzu might want to ruin a Healer's life too. Or an Exalted. Hmm.
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Byrandom

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #983 on: October 06, 2011, 08:19:06 PM »
Do you see the issue with this?  You're getting hung up on "absolutely" and then finding a situation where it doesn't work, in order to go "a-ha!  Gotcha!"  There are going to be corner-case situations that Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and all the other Tier 1s can't handle, or can't handle well.  Do you think they should all be downgraded because it's possible to name those situations?

Wizards, clerics, archivists and artificers can really do everything. They can have the right spell for any situation. If they can't do something, it means that nobody can.
(Clearly, with everything I'm saying that they can solve any problem. I'm not looking for strange situations that will never happen in game here.)

While the druid simply can't. He's strong in combat and has many options out of combat, but that's it. I fail to see how Pun-Pun addresses this assertion.
The difference between the druid and the Tier 1 classes is huger than the difference between the druid and the Tier 2 classes.

If you don't agree, please do tell me what problems a druid playing in a group composed of a binder, a wu jen and a sorcerer brings. They all seem more or less on the same level to me.
While the difference is huge if you bring a druid in a group composed of a wizard, an archivist and an artificer. The other characters can literaly do anything. The druid simply can't: he can do his job well, but he is the only one who is depedent on the others.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 08:21:47 PM by Byrandom »

Littha

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #984 on: October 06, 2011, 08:30:04 PM »
Do you see the issue with this?  You're getting hung up on "absolutely" and then finding a situation where it doesn't work, in order to go "a-ha!  Gotcha!"  There are going to be corner-case situations that Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and all the other Tier 1s can't handle, or can't handle well.  Do you think they should all be downgraded because it's possible to name those situations?

Wizards, clerics, archivists and artificers can really do everything. They can have the right spell for any situation. If they can't do something, it means that nobody can.
(Clearly, with everything I'm saying that they can solve any problem. I'm not looking for strange situations that will never happen in game here.)

While the druid simply can't. He's strong in combat and has many options out of combat, but that's it. I fail to see how Pun-Pun addresses this assertion.
The difference between the druid and the Tier 1 classes is huger than the difference between the druid and the Tier 2 classes.

If you don't agree, please do tell me what problems a druid playing in a group composed of a binder, a wu jen and a sorcerer brings. They all seem more or less on the same level to me.
While the difference is huge if you bring a druid in a group composed of a wizard, an archivist and an artificer. The other characters can literaly do anything. The druid simply can't: he can do his job well, but he is the only one who is depedent on the others.

Wizards have no resurrection or healing magic. Thus they cannot solve every problem and your argument falls apart.
Clerics have a lack of decent blasting spells.

On a more serious note, the druid fits in fine with a tier 2 party because tier 2 is as strong as tier 1 but lacks the versatility not because of a lack of power. Said druid can completely repick his spells every day and can go from being a bear to a mouse several times a day too.

One day he could decide he wanted to be a blaster and with a decent choice of spells do about as well as a sorcerer, next day he could decide he wants to melee and prepares buff spells for himself and uses wildshape for some damage. Day after that he plays party support and heals and buffs everyone else. Sorcerer is still stuck blasting.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 08:40:52 PM by Littha »

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #985 on: October 06, 2011, 08:34:23 PM »
Do you see the issue with this?  You're getting hung up on "absolutely" and then finding a situation where it doesn't work, in order to go "a-ha!  Gotcha!"  There are going to be corner-case situations that Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and all the other Tier 1s can't handle, or can't handle well.  Do you think they should all be downgraded because it's possible to name those situations?

Wizards, clerics, archivists and artificers can really do everything. They can have the right spell for any situation. If they can't do something, it means that nobody can.
(Clearly, with everything I'm saying that they can solve any problem. I'm not looking for strange situations that will never happen in game here.)

While the druid simply can't. He's strong in combat and has many options out of combat, but that's it. I fail to see how Pun-Pun addresses this assertion.
The difference between the druid and the Tier 1 classes is huger than the difference between the druid and the Tier 2 classes.

If you don't agree, please do tell me what problems a druid playing in a group composed of a binder, a wu jen and a sorcerer brings. They all seem more or less on the same level to me.
While the difference is huge if you bring a druid in a group composed of a wizard, an archivist and an artificer. The other characters can literaly do anything. The druid simply can't: he can do his job well, but he is the only one who is depedent on the others.

Wizards have no resurrection or healing magic.

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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #986 on: October 06, 2011, 08:37:19 PM »
Wizards have no resurrection or healing magic.

Gate in a Solar for all your resurrection needs.  Summon Monster can get some pretty incredible healers (one creature can cast Heal 3/day, from Summon Monster IX).  Healing undead is even easier, with Black Sand and Necrosis Carnexes (via Animate Dead).  Yeah, they can do it all.

But as for the Druid... they can cast Shapechange too, and do the same nonsense.  Plus, they come with their own Fighter.  And there's all sorts of nonsense they can pull off (Venomfire!).  Their casting isn't quite as strong, but Wild Shape makes them easier to abuse in the lower levels.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #987 on: October 06, 2011, 08:38:08 PM »
Do you see the issue with this?  You're getting hung up on "absolutely" and then finding a situation where it doesn't work, in order to go "a-ha!  Gotcha!"  There are going to be corner-case situations that Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and all the other Tier 1s can't handle, or can't handle well.  Do you think they should all be downgraded because it's possible to name those situations?

Wizards, clerics, archivists and artificers can really do everything. They can have the right spell for any situation. If they can't do something, it means that nobody can.
(Clearly, with everything I'm saying that they can solve any problem. I'm not looking for strange situations that will never happen in game here.)

While the druid simply can't. He's strong in combat and has many options out of combat, but that's it. I fail to see how Pun-Pun addresses this assertion.
The difference between the druid and the Tier 1 classes is huger than the difference between the druid and the Tier 2 classes.

If you don't agree, please do tell me what problems a druid playing in a group composed of a binder, a wu jen and a sorcerer brings. They all seem more or less on the same level to me.
While the difference is huge if you bring a druid in a group composed of a wizard, an archivist and an artificer. The other characters can literaly do anything. The druid simply can't: he can do his job well, but he is the only one who is depedent on the others.

Dependent on them to do what, exactly?  

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #988 on: October 06, 2011, 08:43:29 PM »
Do you see the issue with this?  You're getting hung up on "absolutely" and then finding a situation where it doesn't work, in order to go "a-ha!  Gotcha!"  There are going to be corner-case situations that Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and all the other Tier 1s can't handle, or can't handle well.  Do you think they should all be downgraded because it's possible to name those situations?

Wizards, clerics, archivists and artificers can really do everything. They can have the right spell for any situation. If they can't do something, it means that nobody can.
(Clearly, with everything I'm saying that they can solve any problem. I'm not looking for strange situations that will never happen in game here.)

While the druid simply can't. He's strong in combat and has many options out of combat, but that's it. I fail to see how Pun-Pun addresses this assertion.
The difference between the druid and the Tier 1 classes is huger than the difference between the druid and the Tier 2 classes.

If you don't agree, please do tell me what problems a druid playing in a group composed of a binder, a wu jen and a sorcerer brings. They all seem more or less on the same level to me.
While the difference is huge if you bring a druid in a group composed of a wizard, an archivist and an artificer. The other characters can literaly do anything. The druid simply can't: he can do his job well, but he is the only one who is depedent on the others.

Dependent on them to do what, exactly? 
Yes, exactly what does the Druid depend on them to do? The Druid has full 9th level casting (admittedly the weakest spell list of the 3 core guys, but full prepared casting is full prepared casting). Druids get access to some of the msot broken stuff in the game just as they do, gets a free extra character for the player to control at no cost, and if you bring in prestige classes, has one of the best non-beholder mage prestige classes in the planar sheppard.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #990 on: October 06, 2011, 08:44:17 PM »
Before I start, I am a big fan of the tier system, so I am not critizing the system per se here.
I just have some questions about the ranking of some classes.

First and most important, the druid.
I am very unexperienced with druids, so I'm surely missing something. My impression is that the druid is a really strong class, but that it misses what takes to be a real Tier 1.
Both wild shape and the animal companion are wonderful and they make the druid very flexible: he can tank, he can travel (by air, water and so on), he can scout, et cetera. But his spell list seems to me very limitated: he can't teleport, can't plane shift, can't planar bind, can't polymorph any object, can't gain extra actions, can't create planes or extradimensional spaces, no great BC spells expect for entangle. All he's got are good buffs, reincarnate and awaken.
Which are surely powerful, but is that enough to make him a Tier 1 class or am I missing some fundamental spells/tricks? What makes him so better than a sorcerer with polymorph? It doesn't seem to me much more versatile anyway (and raw power is not a problem for the sorcerer).

Honestly, you just have to dig around in his spell list a bit longer.  He really does have the nasty stuff.

Quote
I am also unconvinced the favored soul is a Tier 2 class.
It has no access to domains or to turn undead (even though it's easy for a good favored soul to gain the latter via exorcist, it's not a class features). That limits him to the cleric spell list (no domains to expand it).
That means that the favored soul is very limited, since he must choose his known spells. He can be a great tank (buff spells), but he's no better than a crusader in that. He can be a great undead master (animate dead + dissecrate), but he's no better than a dread necromancer. He can be a great skillmonkey (divine insight and the like), but he's no better than a factotum. He can hardly be good at more than one of these roles. Moreover his lack of Knowledge (religion) as a class skill hinders the access to many options for divine spellcasters.
On the other hand, a sorcercer is really flexible, even with few spells known, because he has access to a better list.

He's like a Sorcerer, just with the Cleric list.  But there are a LOT of nasty Cleric spells, both in core and out.  Honestly, Divine Insight + Animate Dead + Desecrate alone gives the right idea, but there's lots of other crazy stuff out there.

Quote
Another ranking that seems wrong to me is the OA samurai's.
JaronK says that a fighter is already high in its tier, so high that a single class variant that merely improves his Intimidate checks is enough to make it tier 4 material.
I really don't see why the same reasoning doesn't apply to the OA samurai. He's basically the same as a fighter, but:
- It gives 2 more skill points.
- Its class skills are much better than the fighter's. It includes Diplomacy, Iaijutsu Focus, Intimidate and Sense Motive!
- It exchanges the first bonus feat with the ability to create a magic weapon in exchange of gold. And this ability is based on the samurai's character level, so multiclassing is not a problem. It's basically an Ancestral Relic feat that you take even if you aren't good aligned.
- It gives three fewer feats, but only on 20 levels. Before 6th level the amount of feats is the same. And at 6th level, you are already taking your first prestige class, so really doesn't matter.
I think it's a better class than the Zhentarim fighter, which is already ranked Tier 4.

Remember that the tiers focus on 6-15.  As you say yourself, you're discounting 6th level and up.  So... there you go.  They're just Fighters with a  few more skill points, a feat traded for Ancestral Relic, better class skills, fewer feats overall, and a MUCH worse bonus feat selection (you did notice how bad their feat selection is, right?).  It's a pretty even trade.

Quote
One last doubt. Would someone explain me why the rogue is Tier 4 and the Rokugan ninja is Tier 5?
The only answer I can think of is: no UMD. Because its class skills stay good (it's got both stealth and diplomatic skills), even if its skill points decrease dramatically. But in exchange, its fighting capacity improves (high BAB).
Or maybe was it converted to 3.5 and got nerfed (I'm looking at a 3.0 version right now).

Not sure what version you're looking at, but mine has Rokugan Ninjas lacking most skillmonkey skills and with just 4+Int skills, so they're really just Sneak Attack Fighters with a few okay class abilities but lower hit points and less armor.

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Littha

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #991 on: October 06, 2011, 09:02:51 PM »
Dependent on them to do what, exactly? 

Oh, I dunno, teleporting, plane shifting, mind reading, charms/mind-control, hordes of permanent minions, facing ethereal oponents or becoming ethereal themselves.

Druids can cast beget bogun for permanent minions... not great ones mind but they are permanent :lol. In place of mind reading they have various spells to talk with plants, animals and stones and they do have a couple of force spells (spiritjaws or vortex of teeth) for killing etherial creatures. Master Earth or Transport via plants (for parties) is the druids teleport along with tree stride and swamp stride.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 09:07:41 PM by Littha »

Byrandom

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #992 on: October 06, 2011, 09:05:16 PM »
One day he could decide he wanted to be a blaster and with a decent choice of spells do about as well as a sorcerer, next day he could decide he wants to melee and prepares buff spells for himself and uses wildshape for some damage. Day after that he plays party support and heals and buffs everyone else. Sorcerer is still stuck blasting.
You do realize you are just listing combat roles, do you?

Druids can change their spells every day. But they suck as utility spellcasters.
Sorcerers can be great utility spellcasters. But they can't change their spells every day.

Then there are wizards, clerics and the like. They can really pick any role (not just combat role), shine at it and change it the next day. That's what makes them Tier 1 classes.

Remember that the tiers focus on 6-15.  As you say yourself, you're discounting 6th level and up.  So... there you go.  They're just Fighters with a  few more skill points, a feat traded for Ancestral Relic, better class skills, fewer feats overall, and a MUCH worse bonus feat selection (you did notice how bad their feat selection is, right?).  It's a pretty even trade.
Are you being fair here?
The fighter is a core class supported in tons of handbooks. The samurai exists only in Oriental Adventures.

The samurai has the same feats as a fighter's, if you take the Player's Handbook.

Quote
Not sure what version you're looking at, but mine has Rokugan Ninjas lacking most skillmonkey skills and with just 4+Int skills, so they're really just Sneak Attack Fighters with a few okay class abilities but lower hit points and less armor.
I'm looking at this version.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #993 on: October 06, 2011, 09:09:17 PM »
See, the wizard/cleric get all of those as default in core. If you add enough splatbooks and optimization, pretty much every class can do everything (there's an option for monks to get UMD out there for Vecna's sake!).

Not to mention the cleric/wizard still do it better. Plain old teleport has much less restrictions than tree stride and friends, you're not limited to just controling elements of nature, you have a much wider array of minions to build/bind/mind-control, etc, etc.

Mooncrow

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #994 on: October 06, 2011, 09:15:46 PM »
Dependent on them to do what, exactly? 

Oh, I dunno, teleporting, plane shifting, mind reading, charms/mind-control, hordes of permanent minions, facing ethereal oponents or becoming ethereal themselves.

Umm, the druid can do all of that - granted plane shifting to an Outer Plane does take Shapechange, for the others, aside from the obvious Shapechange stuff:

Teleport - Master Earth, Stormwalk, Word of Recall
Charms/etc - Summoned Pixies do just fine, or Baleful Polymorph + animal charms/mind reading/whatever
Hordes of minions - I don't really consider that something that needs to be done, whether other people in my party can do it or not.  On the other hand, the druid can make his own horde on the spot.  Or Initiate of Nature if you  really must have extra permanent pets around.
Ethereal - Phantom Stag works wonders

There are things the druid isn't the best at, but that's obviously true of every class on that list.

edit:
See, the wizard/cleric get all of those as default in core. If you add enough splatbooks and optimization, pretty much every class can do everything (there's an option for monks to get UMD out there for Vecna's sake!).

Not to mention the cleric/wizard still do it better. Plain old teleport has much less restrictions than tree stride and friends, you're not limited to just controling elements of nature, you have a much wider array of minions to build/bind/mind-control, etc, etc.

Master Earth ignores teleport-blockers, so I actually like it more than teleport - that aside:

I'm not arguing that they're the best at any of this, but the argument was made that they are dependent on others to do it for them, and that's simply not true. 
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 09:23:57 PM by Mooncrow »

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #995 on: October 06, 2011, 09:22:23 PM »
bah, meant to hit the edit
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 09:24:54 PM by Mooncrow »

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #996 on: October 06, 2011, 09:25:27 PM »
Quote
I'm not arguing that they're the best at any of this, but the argument was made that they are dependent on others to do it for them, and that's simply not true.
Exactly. Druids are far from my favorite class, and I have little experience admittedly with them, but they do shine in many circumstances, their just not as good as a wizard, but who is  :rollseyes
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #997 on: October 06, 2011, 09:31:07 PM »
Transport via plants is actually about as good as teleport, it is 1 spell level behind at least its in core.

One day he could decide he wanted to be a blaster and with a decent choice of spells do about as well as a sorcerer, next day he could decide he wants to melee and prepares buff spells for himself and uses wildshape for some damage. Day after that he plays party support and heals and buffs everyone else. Sorcerer is still stuck blasting.
You do realize you are just listing combat roles, do you?
I realise, do you realise I was making examples?

Anyway core utility druid spells:
Air walk
All of the previously mentioned teleport alternatives.
Animal Messenger
Animal Shapes
Antipathy
Atonement
Awaken
Charm and Dominate animal
Commune with Nature
Control Water
Control Weather
Control Winds
Detect snares and Pits
Endure Elements
Find the path
Foresight
Freedom of Movement
Hallow
Hide from animals
Longstrider
Meld into Stone
Move Earth
Pass without trace
Plant Growth
Regenerate
Reincarnate
Rusting Grasp
Scrying
Scrying, Greater
Shapechange
Soften earth and stone
Speak with animals
Speak with plants
Spider climb
Stone Shape
Stone Tell
Sympathy
Transmute Metal to Wood
Transmute Mud to Rock
Transmute Rock to Mud
Tree Shape
True Seeing
Unhallow
Wall of Stone
Warp Wood
Water Breathing
Wind Walk
Wood Shape


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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #998 on: October 06, 2011, 09:56:04 PM »
@Mooncrow

Thanks, that's what I was asking for. Master Earth is really a nice spell.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #999 on: October 06, 2011, 10:31:38 PM »
Do you see the issue with this?  You're getting hung up on "absolutely" and then finding a situation where it doesn't work, in order to go "a-ha!  Gotcha!"  There are going to be corner-case situations that Wizards, Druids, Clerics, and all the other Tier 1s can't handle, or can't handle well.  Do you think they should all be downgraded because it's possible to name those situations?

Wizards, clerics, archivists and artificers can really do everything. They can have the right spell for any situation. If they can't do something, it means that nobody can.
(Clearly, with everything I'm saying that they can solve any problem. I'm not looking for strange situations that will never happen in game here.)

While the druid simply can't. He's strong in combat and has many options out of combat, but that's it. I fail to see how Pun-Pun addresses this assertion.
The difference between the druid and the Tier 1 classes is huger than the difference between the druid and the Tier 2 classes.

If you don't agree, please do tell me what problems a druid playing in a group composed of a binder, a wu jen and a sorcerer brings. They all seem more or less on the same level to me.
While the difference is huge if you bring a druid in a group composed of a wizard, an archivist and an artificer. The other characters can literaly do anything. The druid simply can't: he can do his job well, but he is the only one who is depedent on the others.

Wizards have no resurrection or healing magic. Thus they cannot solve every problem and your argument falls apart.
Clerics have a lack of decent blasting spells.

On a more serious note, the druid fits in fine with a tier 2 party because tier 2 is as strong as tier 1 but lacks the versatility not because of a lack of power. Said druid can completely repick his spells every day and can go from being a bear to a mouse several times a day too.

One day he could decide he wanted to be a blaster and with a decent choice of spells do about as well as a sorcerer, next day he could decide he wants to melee and prepares buff spells for himself and uses wildshape for some damage. Day after that he plays party support and heals and buffs everyone else. Sorcerer is still stuck blasting.
Wizards have Wish. Your argument is invalid.

Blasting is subpar so the point is moot.
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