Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 452708 times)

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InnaBinder

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #940 on: September 10, 2011, 03:33:42 PM »
The versatility in class features, skills, spells selection and whether to be arcane or divine only makes up for the lack of ACFs.

It can be a DMM divine Sorceror with access to CoD spells, but it will never get kobold sorcerer cheese.

It is T2.
Kobold Sorcerer is Tier 2. [/nitpick] Generic Spellcaster can break the game in a wider variety of ways than any given Sorcerer or Psion, because they can cherry-pick spells from a larger list.  It's only when we start with Shrodinger's Sorcerer vs Shrodinger's Generic Spellcaster nonsense that the issue devolves into "nuh uh, my cowboy had a special anti-laserbeam shield put into his samurai belt, so he totally stopped your zombie ninja."
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IlPazzo

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #941 on: September 10, 2011, 08:05:39 PM »
My point was "Whatever Sorcerer is Tier 2. Generic Spellcaster gets less cheese than Kobold Sorcerer and casts spells spontaneously too, therefor Generic Spellcaster is not Tier 1"

Generic Spellcaster can break the game in a wider variety... yes, of course. Even the Sorcerer can break the game in various ways. The point of Tier 2 is that a given build, while making sense, cannot break the game in so may ways as Tier 1. Tier 1 classes can choose how they will screw the game balance when they prepare spells. Generic Spellcasters cannot.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 08:10:54 PM by IlPazzo »

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #942 on: September 10, 2011, 09:35:17 PM »
Right, the Generic Spellcaster has a few more options than a Sorcerer for specific game breaks... but they still have only so many options.  A DM still gets to see in advance what they've got available for the full level.  A Generic Spellcaster can't, without PrCs or something, just change his spell load out to deal with whatever's coming up.

So yeah, I'd say T2.  High T2, but T2 none the less.

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Shiki

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #943 on: September 10, 2011, 09:42:53 PM »
Limited Wish... eh.
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #944 on: September 10, 2011, 11:04:11 PM »
Expecially when its a loredrake dragon wrought what have you.

thought thats probably in the extremely opt you move up a tier level
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Jackinthegreen

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #945 on: September 11, 2011, 08:28:02 PM »
Limited Wish... eh.

"Cannot Wish for the party to have common sense. Even the wish spell has its limits."

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #946 on: September 11, 2011, 08:38:56 PM »
Limited Wish... eh.

"Cannot Wish for the party to have common sense. Even the wish spell has its limits."
"Miracles can't do it either."
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Shiki

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #947 on: September 11, 2011, 08:46:12 PM »
Limited Wish... eh.

"Cannot Wish for the party to have common sense. Even the wish spell has its limits."
Which means?
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Jackinthegreen

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #948 on: September 12, 2011, 06:30:02 AM »
Limited Wish... eh.

"Cannot Wish for the party to have common sense. Even the wish spell has its limits."
Which means?

It's one of the "Things Mr. Welch can no longer do in an RPG."  Other things include "Dwarfs do not get beard cancer," and "If the gun can stake a vampire through an engine block, I can't have it."

The full list of 1975 things can be found at http://theglen.livejournal.com/16735.html?thread=18015

Shiki

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #949 on: September 12, 2011, 07:40:30 AM »
I see, but where I was getting at w/ Limited Wish is that w/ it, your list of spells known is far from limited, as in emulate freaking Psychic Reformation. This pseudo-trick is also alot better for a Generic Spellcaster than any other T2s, unless I'm missing something.
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Tr011

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #950 on: September 12, 2011, 07:48:07 AM »
The full list of 1975 things can be found at http://theglen.livejournal.com/16735.html?thread=18015

Quote
15. Plan B is not automatically twice as much gunpowder as Plan A.
17. Collateral Damage Man is not an appropriate name for a super hero.
65. There is no Summon Bimbo spell.
74. My thief's battle cry is not "Run And Live"
122. The paladin's alignment is not Lawful Anal.
194. When the other guy picks swords for the choice of weapons, that does not leave me pistols.
295. When my enemy blinks does not give me an attack of opportunity.
Those are REALLY nice xD

Jackinthegreen

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #951 on: September 13, 2011, 12:29:12 AM »
I see, but where I was getting at w/ Limited Wish is that w/ it, your list of spells known is far from limited, as in emulate freaking Psychic Reformation. This pseudo-trick is also alot better for a Generic Spellcaster than any other T2s, unless I'm missing something.

The trick works for a Generic Spellcaster, so long as the DM allows Psionic-Spell transparency of course.

Kethrian

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #952 on: September 13, 2011, 12:47:19 PM »
I noticed that the Dragonfire Adept is still missing from the list.  It can be found in Dragon Magic.

It is roughly comparable to the Warlock, in that both have similar invocations, and the DfA's breath weapon is roughly on par with a Warlock's Eldritch Blast, and other similarly scaled class features.  The one thing that can give the DfA an easy bump in power is the Entangling Breath feat from RotD, where every round the DfA can entangle everyone he can hit (and hurt) for d4 rounds.  Combined with the ability to make his allies immune to his breath (Endure Exposure invocation), and he becomes a close range lockdown machine.

All in all, I'd estimate the DfA to fall in high on Tier 4, possibly low on Tier 3, depending.

Kethrian

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #953 on: September 13, 2011, 12:55:40 PM »
Limited Wish... eh.

"Cannot Wish for the party to have common sense. Even the wish spell has its limits."
Which means?

It's one of the "Things Mr. Welch can no longer do in an RPG."  Other things include "Dwarfs do not get beard cancer," and "If the gun can stake a vampire through an engine block, I can't have it."

The full list of 1975 things can be found at http://theglen.livejournal.com/16735.html?thread=18015

Oh man!  I think I know some of the guys who game (or used to) with him!  Last I heard was a few years ago, and he was looking to play some Exalted 2nd ed.  Probably saw vast swathes of these rules that he could try to get away with all over again there!

ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #954 on: September 15, 2011, 03:49:31 AM »
Can we agree that anything with alter self, polymorph, and/or animate dead on its spell list or as a SLA is automanically a tier 4 (hexblade, spellthief, warlock, adept, SotAO paladin).

Jackinthegreen

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #955 on: September 15, 2011, 05:08:26 AM »
Can we agree that anything with alter self, polymorph, and/or animate dead on its spell list or as a SLA is automanically a tier 4 (hexblade, spellthief, warlock, adept, SotAO paladin).

If the abilities are in their full forms, I'd agree with that.  Such spells are strong in that they can offer power beyond the scope of some classes and features while at the same time granting many ways to contribute to and participate in different encounter.

InnaBinder

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #956 on: September 15, 2011, 04:31:37 PM »
Can we agree that anything with alter self, polymorph, and/or animate dead on its spell list or as a SLA is automanically a tier 4 (hexblade, spellthief, warlock, adept, SotAO paladin).
Assuming you mean "automatically a tier 4 OR HIGHER", yes.  I'd hate to downgrade Wizards because of access to Alter Self.  ;)
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #957 on: September 15, 2011, 05:36:14 PM »
I wasn't sure where to put Hexblades, but their access to Alter Self was one of the main things that made me think "yeah, this needs to be at least T4."

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #958 on: September 15, 2011, 11:43:34 PM »
I noticed that the Dragonfire Adept is still missing from the list.  It can be found in Dragon Magic.

We should make a list of all the 3.5 base classes that are missing from the list and maybe think about posting them when we remake this thread soon (it's nearing 50 posts).  Even if we don't know exactly what tier they are in due to a lack of experience seeing them in action we can either guess or put them in the first post as being under review.


Here are some that stand out:
Dragon Shaman
Magewright
Dragonfire Adept
Shadowcaster
Incarnate
Soulborn
Totemist
All of the Dragonlance classes
 Mariner
 Master
 Mystic
 Nightstalker
 Noble
 

Shiki

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #959 on: September 16, 2011, 02:36:57 AM »
I noticed that the Dragonfire Adept is still missing from the list.  It can be found in Dragon Magic.

We should make a list of all the 3.5 base classes that are missing from the list and maybe think about posting them when we remake this thread soon (it's nearing 50 posts).  Even if we don't know exactly what tier they are in due to a lack of experience seeing them in action we can either guess or put them in the first post as being under review.


Here are some that stand out:
Dragon Shaman
Magewright
Dragonfire Adept
Shadowcaster
Incarnate
Soulborn
Totemist
All of the Dragonlance classes
 Mariner
 Master
 Mystic
 Nightstalker
 Noble
 

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714.0
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