Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 450333 times)

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awaken DM golem

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #920 on: August 26, 2011, 12:44:14 AM »
3/4ths a Rogue but with near-Adept "spells" to compensate.
And then mix in a little psi goodies.

The whole "flask" rogue thing gamingden talks about, is do-able.
Just a little slower to get there, and has Metamorphic Transfer around the corner.

Feat Rogue 2 / PsyWar 18 is clearly better in some ways, but not all.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #921 on: August 26, 2011, 01:37:19 AM »
low tier 3/high tier 4

The psychic rogue looks like a slightly better version of the spellthief, a low tier 4, and it's a bit better than a regular rogue but it's worst than the beguiler and factotum which are the tier 3 skillmonkeys

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #922 on: August 26, 2011, 07:08:32 AM »
useful this. thanks.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #923 on: August 27, 2011, 08:39:37 PM »
Could someone mind telling me why Duskblade is tier 3? All it seems to be able to do is high damage, unlike Dread Necro or Beguiler. It seems to me that all of the Tier 3s have several things they can do in and out of combat, but the dusblade is useless out of combat. Anyone mind explaining?

ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #924 on: August 27, 2011, 09:26:52 PM »
Could someone mind telling me why Duskblade is tier 3? All it seems to be able to do is high damage, unlike Dread Necro or Beguiler. It seems to me that all of the Tier 3s have several things they can do in and out of combat, but the dusblade is useless out of combat. Anyone mind explaining?

Basically the duskblade is a step up from the barbarian (tier 4). The duskblade has similar damage output but can debuff (touch of fatigue, ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, dispeling touch/dispel magic, enervation), buff (resist energy, greater magic weapon, vampric touch), blast (scorching ray, disintegrate), battlefield control (obscuring mist, dimensional hop, regroup), and utility (swift fly, swift invisibility, dimension door). Being an arcane caster the duskblade can use eternal wands for spells like enlarge person and cure x spells and qualifies for obtain familiar/improved familiar (with the duskblade's full BAB).

Granted the duskblade is on the low end of tier 3 but it's much closer in power and flexibility to the tier 3 warrior classes like the warblade and crusader than the tier 4 warrior classes liek the barbarian and dungeon crasher fighter.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #925 on: August 27, 2011, 11:00:35 PM »
Thank you for you're reply, as the "why each tier blah blah" didn't really explain to well. It just kept glorifying the Duskblade's damage. I still have my doubts(especially for utility), but I can see the general point.

Soda

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #926 on: August 28, 2011, 04:27:39 AM »
EDIT- Oh sorry, I misread. IGNORE ME!
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 04:31:42 AM by Soda »

ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #927 on: August 28, 2011, 05:58:50 PM »
Plus there's plenty of ways of expanding on the duskblade's spell list so can get plenty of good and great 1st-5th level spells.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #928 on: August 29, 2011, 02:50:18 AM »
Thank you for you're reply, as the "why each tier blah blah" didn't really explain to well. It just kept glorifying the Duskblade's damage. I still have my doubts(especially for utility), but I can see the general point.
Like the Barbarian, it has high damage.  Unlike the Barbarian, it's not all-but-useless at other tasks.  It's not as good of a debuffer as a Dread Necro or as good of a buffer as a Bard, but it has just as much capability doing either as a Bard has at dealing damage (note: Bards can make better archers than Clerics, if you look strictly at their capabilities as archers).

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #929 on: September 07, 2011, 12:57:26 AM »
What Tier would the generic classes be in?
I think the Spellcaster is pretty good since he is basically a better sorcerer (but with one less max lvl spell/day)

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #930 on: September 07, 2011, 01:01:06 AM »
What Tier would the generic classes be in?
I think the Spellcaster is pretty good since he is basically a better sorcerer (but with one less max lvl spell/day)
Generic spellcasters have access to ALL spells, and thus should be at least tier 1.
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zugschef

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #931 on: September 07, 2011, 01:38:43 AM »
What Tier would the generic classes be in?
I think the Spellcaster is pretty good since he is basically a better sorcerer (but with one less max lvl spell/day)
Generic spellcasters have access to ALL spells, and thus should be at least tier 1.
i'm not sure that i agree... is a sorcerer with access to all spells really tier 1? the caster is still limited to comparatively few powerful tricks, which is exactly the definition of tier 2. only because the caster has more options to chose from initially doesn't make the caster that much more powerful once the spells are selected. there are only that much combos you can pull off with limited spells known.

Jackinthegreen

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #932 on: September 07, 2011, 02:28:24 AM »
A generic spellcaster, assuming one is going by the rules at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm, would most likely be Tier 2 due to choosing spells just like a sorcerer/favored soul.  Only having a few spells known is what really sets T2 as T2 instead of T1.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #933 on: September 07, 2011, 03:04:52 AM »
A generic spellcaster, assuming one is going by the rules at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm, would most likely be Tier 2 due to choosing spells just like a sorcerer/favored soul.  Only having a few spells known is what really sets T2 as T2 instead of T1.

Sounds reasonable. What do you think about the Warrior and Expert Generic classes?

The Warrior is easily comparable to the Fighter, he has not Tower shields or Heavy Armor, but a greater Feat selection (can also select class features like Evasion, Uncanny Dodge or Trap Sense + Trapfinding). Also, the profit of selecting your own skills is obvious (UMD anyone?). The Fighter is T5, but I think a Warrior could easily be T4 since he can do one thing well, due to his large amount of Feats with a wide selection.

On the other hand, the Expert can be compared to Rogues. Less skills and less class skills, but selectable. Less weapons, but one selectable can be as useful as the default rogue selection. The Class features are worse, but selectable. How good/bad is that? Is it better, since you can optimize more since you have more options, or is it worse because you miss some nice Rogue-Features? Also, having two good saves is a great advantage of the Expert.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #934 on: September 07, 2011, 03:49:00 AM »
A generic spellcaster, assuming one is going by the rules at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm, would most likely be Tier 2 due to choosing spells just like a sorcerer/favored soul.  Only having a few spells known is what really sets T2 as T2 instead of T1.
A generic spellcaster gets every spell on the Wizard/Sorc list, and every spell on the Cleric/Druid list; s/he just has to choose which list is the one from which to use scrolls and such.

Quote
A spellcaster must choose at 1st level whether to be an arcane spellcaster or a divine spellcaster. This choice has no impact on the spells that she may learn[/quote]
Emphasis mine.  That's certainly more versatile than an out-of-the-box Sorcerer, and arguably as good or better than a Wizard.  T2 seems low-balling it by a fair bit.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2011, 07:20:14 PM by InnaBinder »
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Jackinthegreen

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #935 on: September 07, 2011, 08:07:58 AM »
A generic spellcaster, assuming one is going by the rules at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm, would most likely be Tier 2 due to choosing spells just like a sorcerer/favored soul.  Only having a few spells known is what really sets T2 as T2 instead of T1.
A generic spellcaster gets every spell on the Wizard/Sorc list, and every spell on the Cleric/Druid list; s/he just has to choose which list is the one from which to use scrolls and such.

Quote
A spellcaster must choose at 1st level whether to be an arcane spellcaster or a divine spellcaster. This choice has no impact on the spells that she may learn[/quote]Emphasis mine.  That's certainly more versatile than an out-of-the-box Sorcerer, and arguably as good or better than a Wizard.  T2 seems low-balling it by a fair bit.
You seem to imply that they have the full lists available to use at will. They don't. The page specifically says they must choose their spells known just like a sorcerer does, and even gives the chart for spells known.  Hell, the spells per day are fewer than a standard Sorcerer's.  Why else would they use the flavor text "Depending on her choice of spells, she can be a healer or an enchanter, a necromancer or a trickster," hm?

If you're speaking to the fact that combining the cleric, druid, and sorc/wiz spell lists takes a character up from T2 to T1, it doesn't.  The character is still very much limited by spells known.  Choosing to be arcane or divine caster only changes whether the spells are cast as arcane or divine spells and what stat the spells key off of.  It also determines whether the caster can use arcane or divine scrolls, which really isn't a factor to be honest since an arcane caster one turns the entirety of those lists into arcane spells, and a divine caster turns them all into divine.  Few DM's will note whether a scroll is arcane or divine save maybe for specific areas that dislike arcane or divine magic, respectively.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2011, 07:42:04 PM by Jackinthegreen »

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #936 on: September 07, 2011, 10:05:04 AM »
I think access to Divine/Arcane-only PrCs kinda makes up for spells known. Being able to cherry-pick PrCs like that is really good.


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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #937 on: September 07, 2011, 10:39:45 AM »
The versatility in class features, skills, spells selection and whether to be arcane or divine only makes up for the lack of ACFs.

It can be a DMM divine Sorceror with access to CoD spells, but it will never get kobold sorcerer cheese.

It is T2.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #938 on: September 10, 2011, 08:26:50 AM »
Random note for whomever asked where a Swift Hunter would place:  It wouldn't.  The Tier system is meant for comparing single classes and Swift hunter is intended to be two.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #939 on: September 10, 2011, 03:11:09 PM »
Random note for whomever asked where a Swift Hunter would place:  It wouldn't.  The Tier system is meant for comparing single classes and Swift hunter is intended to be always at least two.

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