Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 450255 times)

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CrimsonDeath

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #820 on: April 12, 2011, 10:32:38 AM »
The Incarnate's ability to reshape soulmelds a limited number of times per day does offer a small degree of additional flexibility.  Sadly, he can't bind melds shaped in this way...

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #821 on: April 12, 2011, 06:21:49 PM »
We only have a few pages left. I am doing a large series of taking of certain threads. Would anyone mind if I combined grilledcheese's why tier x is in tier x threads?

That way only concerns about 'tiering' itself (for the few that don't understand it) can remain here, unpolluted.
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #822 on: April 12, 2011, 08:31:25 PM »
We only have a few pages left. I am doing a large series of taking of certain threads. Would anyone mind if I combined grilledcheese's why tier x is in tier x threads?

That way only concerns about 'tiering' itself (for the few that don't understand it) can remain here, unpolluted.

Is there a way to get the next iteration of this thread stickied?


Because having both the Tier List and the Tier Explanation threads in one easily access location would be helpful.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #823 on: April 12, 2011, 08:35:50 PM »
We only have a few pages left. I am doing a large series of taking of certain threads. Would anyone mind if I combined grilledcheese's why tier x is in tier x threads?

That way only concerns about 'tiering' itself (for the few that don't understand it) can remain here, unpolluted.

Is there a way to get the next iteration of this thread stickied?


Because having both the Tier List and the Tier Explanation threads in one easily access location would be helpful.
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JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #824 on: April 13, 2011, 05:13:30 AM »
We only have a few pages left. I am doing a large series of taking of certain threads. Would anyone mind if I combined grilledcheese's why tier x is in tier x threads?

That way only concerns about 'tiering' itself (for the few that don't understand it) can remain here, unpolluted.
you mean like this?

Not that I mind, it would be nice to see the other base classes listed too...
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AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #825 on: April 30, 2011, 02:58:47 AM »
Okay. I'm making a little project. Basicly it's gestalting lower tier mundanelow tier classes to make them at least strong tier 4s or weak tier 3s and comparatively balanced relative to each other (I'm not even trying to make them equal to tier 1s or 2s, low tier 3/high tier 4 is my goal). I would be thankful for suggestions and comments.
Here we go:
Fighter - Fighter // Monk // Paladin // CW Samurai // Knight
Ranger - Ranger // Scout // Fighter
Barbarian - Barbarian // Fighter
Rogue - Rogue // Swashbuckler // CA Ninja

Of course there will be some reorganizing of the class features involved and some of them will be changed/replaced, but it's basicly this.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2011, 03:06:57 AM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

Prime32

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #826 on: April 30, 2011, 03:10:35 AM »
Okay. I'm making a little project. Basicly it's gestalting lower tier mundanelow tier classes to make them at least strong tier 4s or weak tier 3s and comparatively balanced relative to each other (I'm not even trying to make them equal to tier 1s or 2s, low tier 3/high tier 4 is my goal). I would be thankful for suggestions and comments.
Here we go:
Fighter - Fighter // Monk // Paladin // CW Samurai // Knight
Ranger - Ranger // Scout // Fighter
Barbarian - Barbarian // Fighter
Rogue - Rogue // Swashbuckler // CA Ninja

Of course there will be some reorganizing of the class features involved and some of them will be changed/replaced, but it's basicly this.
*cough* :p
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #827 on: April 30, 2011, 03:23:43 AM »
Yes, I've seen that, actually this is where my inspiration came from. But I don't want to make one uber-gestalted class, just make the low tier classes a little more versatile and/or stronger in combat. That's all.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2011, 12:40:54 AM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

AleksanderTheGreat

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #828 on: May 05, 2011, 12:04:35 AM »
What about this:
Fighter - Fighter // Monk // Paladin // Swashbuckler
Ranger - Ranger // Scout // Fighter
Barbarian - Barbarian // Ranger // Fighter
Rogue - Rogue //Swashbuckler // CA Ninja // Marshal
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 02:54:25 AM by AleksanderTheGreat »
Quote from: Sephirothsword117
Quote from: Solo
Optimizing is the antithesis of roleplaying because it takes focus away from the important parts of the game.
I'm inclined to disagree. People work hard on there characters, there personality, back ground, appearance, so forth. No one wants there character that they have invested time, energy, thought, and probably emotion in to be killed because they didn't take strong enough feats or skills or spells or what have you.

BlackAngelika

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #829 on: June 13, 2011, 03:50:32 PM »
What tier would Dragon Shaman (Player's Handbook II) be? Nevermind. I found the answer.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2011, 03:52:54 PM by BlackAngelika »

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #830 on: June 14, 2011, 05:24:59 AM »
It seems to me that your tier system has 2 rankings. One being how the classes fall with same optimization, and another based on what a character can do. One is for classes, and another for individual characters.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #831 on: June 14, 2011, 05:48:24 AM »
It seems to me that your tier system has 2 rankings. One being how the classes fall with same optimization, and another based on what a character can do. One is for classes, and another for individual characters.
This summarizes a little bit of my issues w/ the Tiers system.  You can naturally build pretty powerful Paladins and what have you -- that's part of charopp's job. 

One read of the heuristic is to say something like "this is what this class can do out of the box, w/out a ton of work or arduous optimization."  That would be helpful, but I also don't think it is what the Tiers represent.  A lot of the tricks described for Wizards are highly non-obvious.  We're familiar w/ them now, and the extent of their cunning use (e.g., Contact Other Plane), but w/out someone pointing them out or some serious work, you'd never know they were around.

But, I'm one of those wacky people who don't particularly like this approach to the game or charopp. 

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #832 on: June 14, 2011, 05:43:16 PM »
It seems to me that your tier system has 2 rankings. One being how the classes fall with same optimization, and another based on what a character can do. One is for classes, and another for individual characters.


It's the same... it's "how can these classes, with equivalent optimization, effect the game?"  A Wizard can do all sorts of silly things pretty much regardless of optimization... the tricks may be complex at times, but almost all Wizards can do them.  By comparison, you have to optimize the heck out of a Monk to make him do anything unexpected, and even then it's rarely class abilities that do anything strange.

Really, the idea is that the T1 and T6 classes can really change a campaign... the T1 classes by doing all sorts of stuff a campaign might not be ready for (such as teleporting the party to a new plane to go get materials or raising an army of the dead) which often requires changing the campaign to compensate, while the T6s require that the campaign be created around their few strengths lest they be completely useless.  As you come towards the middle of the system, the classes can deal with what gets thrown at them more without being too surprising... optimization levels can change where exactly you sit on that curve though (a highly optimized Commoner can in fact handle even CR challenges well, but it takes a LOT of optimization that ignores the class itself).

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #833 on: June 14, 2011, 06:20:08 PM »
Let's put it this way: a wizard who's a focused evoker or enchanter who barred transmutation, conjuration, and illusion and took toughness for all of his feats is still quite capable of breaking a campaign a dozen different ways.

Unbeliever

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #834 on: June 14, 2011, 10:27:09 PM »
@JaronK and NinjaRabbit

Here's my response to all that.  It's defining "optimization" as, roughly, "choice of feats, magic items, class levels, and so on."  It's not, crucially, defining it as "choice of spells."  That strikes me as wrong.  The most relevant choice the lowly Fighter gets is his choice of feats, that's what the Fighter class in D&D 3.5 does (unfortunately).  The most relevant choice a Wizard gets is his spell selection.  That's what he does. 

It's weird to me that these two scenarios would count as equivalent optimization:  (1) a Wizard w/ Spell Focus for all of his feats but brilliant spell selection, say along the lines of TreantMonk's God builds, and (2) a Fighter w/ a Great Cleave.  The Wizard in example (1) seems to me to be using a hell of a lot more optimization.  It's not optimization at the level of feats, but the spell choices are highly optimized. 

Now, I'm not disagreeing that the higher tier classes are generally more flexible -- the Tier system values flexibility highly -- nor am I necessarily disagreeing that at the upper bounds of optimization the higher tier classes can wreak more havoc on a game.  It just seems to me that the level of optimization that we take for granted in spell choices, schools to specialize in, and so forth is quite high. 

That's really my point.  As a corollary, if that level of optimization in spell, etc. choice is quite high, then I don't know what the equivalent level of optimization Paladin or Fighter or Barbarian is.  I have a sense, though, that they perform better than they are typically given credit for. 

For what it's worth, I saw this in action quite recently.  A friend of mine started playing his first D&D wizard, and wanted to play an elemental-themed god type.  And, he's still very much learning the ropes both in spell choices and when to cast what spells and that's w/ my help, the guides on this board (thanks again, btw).  And, that's the case even though his build was mind-numbingly simple:  aside from a handful of feats, I told him to pick whatever prestige class amused him the most and didn't lose caster levels (he ended up w/ Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil) b/c it frankly didn't matter. 

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #835 on: June 15, 2011, 01:33:31 AM »
@JaronK and NinjaRabbit

Here's my response to all that.  It's defining "optimization" as, roughly, "choice of feats, magic items, class levels, and so on."  It's not, crucially, defining it as "choice of spells."  That strikes me as wrong.  The most relevant choice the lowly Fighter gets is his choice of feats, that's what the Fighter class in D&D 3.5 does (unfortunately).  The most relevant choice a Wizard gets is his spell selection.  That's what he does. 

For Sorcerers, optimizing includes choice of spells.  For those who get their entire list, it's less so... choice of spells is something that can be changed day by day.  It has nothing to do with how the character is built and everything to do with how it's played.  A Cleric can change his spells on a whim, just as a Barbarian can change who he'd like to try to attack or a Rogue can chose when to hide... these things are playing skill and tactics, not optimization.  A Wizard who chose useless spells and thus felt useless could simply learn some more spells that were more useful and there he goes.  A Fighter who chose useless feats, however, is pretty stuck unless rebuilding is available.

So, spell selection isn't quite the same as optimization, it's really more playing skill.  An unoptimized Wizard who choses solid spells is equivalent to an unoptimized Fighter who uses solid tactics.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #836 on: June 15, 2011, 03:03:31 AM »
Are Pathfinder classes still in the same tiers or are there any changes?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #837 on: June 15, 2011, 03:05:24 AM »
Are Pathfinder classes still in the same tiers or are there any changes?
Paladin is probably tier 4, otherwise no changes. There's some shifting within the tiers though.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

BlackAngelika

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #838 on: June 15, 2011, 03:25:24 AM »
Are Pathfinder classes still in the same tiers or are there any changes?
Paladin is probably tier 4, otherwise no changes. There's some shifting within the tiers though.
What do you mean?

Mixster

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #839 on: June 15, 2011, 09:40:16 AM »
Looking through the Oriental Adventures, I propose for Shaman (OA) to be added to the tier 1 list.

Here's a few points for him:

- Turn attempts opens up for Divine Metamagic.
- He has an Animal Companion.
- He Can see Ethereal and Invisible creatures without the need for buffs from level 1.
- He has a series of noteworthy spells, Polymorph, Divine Power (with the hero or War domain), Gate, Astral Projection, Shapechange
- While you do not have Wild Shape, Animal Possession/Possess can, with some shenanigans allow you to do the same thing, but instead get the animals HP.

So, Mix, you might ask, this sounds like a mix up of Druid and Cleric, why is this not higher than Tier 1? Well firstly, it lacks a lot of support. It's spell list wasn't updated in SpC, meaning it can't do all those things; If you want to be kept in Tier 1 while everybody else go crazy with their sources, it takes DM fiat to make sure you can use the tricks the other T1 classes are pulling off. Secondly, Possession is vastly Inferior to Wild Shape. You need to keep the creature you possess alive and with you somehow; meaning just wild shaping into plenty of stuff is out of the question.
That being said, you are pretty close to being a cleric with the Polymorph chain on your spell list. Which is on itself tier 1.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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