Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 454888 times)

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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #780 on: March 23, 2011, 01:38:20 AM »
Don't Rainbow Servants require a lawful good alignment while dread necros are non-good?

Rainbow Servant requires non-chaotic and non-evil. Dread Necro requires non-good. A LN or N character can qualify for both.

Also, not every spell he acquires from Cleric Spell Access will be divine. For example, Summon Monster is on the sorc/wiz list as well as the cleric list, so it will be arcane when a DN learns it from Cleric Spell Access even though Dread Necros don't learn it normally. Cure Light Wounds is likewise arcane for him because it's on the Bard list.

That still leaves a lot of good stuff to Persist, though.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #781 on: March 23, 2011, 02:01:56 AM »
Dreadrainbow would probably fall under highly optimized up tier 2 clause. Certain prestige class, with odd requirements, and only looks good if you actually read the part that most people skip.
Dreadrainbow is a Tier 1 combination - at level 15 or so. It's got turn undead and it has the divine spell list. Unless you rule that those spells actually become arcane....
They don't, there is a specific note to that effect. Plus you can hit it at level 11 or 12 with trickery I think... and you are possibly better than a cleric because you have more spells per day and can just decide what spells you need as you encounter challenged... and more turn undead uses probably because of the CHA focus. Though you do lose out on two domains and the opportunity to take another prestige class I suppose.
Of course, using early entry tricks for the best possible prestige class isn't exactly an average level of optimization.
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X-Codes

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #782 on: March 23, 2011, 02:43:50 AM »
Dreadrainbow would probably fall under highly optimized up tier 2 clause. Certain prestige class, with odd requirements, and only looks good if you actually read the part that most people skip.
Dreadrainbow is a Tier 1 combination - at level 15 or so. It's got turn undead and it has the divine spell list. Unless you rule that those spells actually become arcane....
They don't, there is a specific note to that effect. Plus you can hit it at level 11 or 12 with trickery I think... and you are possibly better than a cleric because you have more spells per day and can just decide what spells you need as you encounter challenged... and more turn undead uses probably because of the CHA focus. Though you do lose out on two domains and the opportunity to take another prestige class I suppose.
Of course, using early entry tricks for the best possible prestige class isn't exactly an average level of optimization.
Not to mention that this trick loses HARD when you apply practical optimization and realize that most DMs will call it a 6/10 class.  The thing is, used in that fashion with DN/Beguiler/Warmage, it's still a solid class.

Bortasz

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #783 on: April 07, 2011, 09:15:10 PM »
Hello

I want ask about others Classes.

wath Tier Have:

CA Wu Jen

CD Shugenja

CD Spirit Shaman

EXPh Wilder

CP Ardent

CP Divine Mind

CP Lurk

PHII Dragon Shaman

ToM Shadowcaster

ToM Truenamer

DM Dragonfire Adept

MoI Incarnum

MoI Soulborn

MoI Totemist

[spoiler]
Classes already Have Tier.
Barbarian   4
Bard   3
Wizard   1
Druid   1
Cleric   1
Rogue   4
Monk   5
Paladyn   5
Ranger   4
Warrior   5
Sorcerer   2
PMP Adept   4
PMP Arystokrata   6
PMP Ekspert   5
PMP Plebeljusz   6
PMP Zbrojny   6
Cadv Ninja   5
Cadv Scout   4
Cadv SpellThief   4
CA Warlock   4
CA Warmage   4
CA Wu Jen   
CW Hexblade   4
CW Samurai   6
CW Swashbuckler   5
CD Favored Soul   2
CD Shugenja   
CD Spirit Shaman   
EPH Psion   2
EPH Psychi Warrior   3
EPH Soulknife   5
EPH Wilder   
CP Ardent   
CP Divine Mind   
CP Lurk   
CP Erudite   2
HW Duch walki   
HoH Archivist   1
HoH Dread Necromancer   3
ECS Artificer   1
PHII Beguiller   3
PHII Dragon Shaman   
PHII Duskblade   3
PHII Knight   5
ToM Binder   2
ToM Shadowcaster   
ToM Truenamer   
ToB Swordsage   3
ToB Warblade   3
ToB Crusader   3
MH Healer    5
MH Marshall   4
DM Dragonfire Adept   
Dungeon Factotum   3
MoI Incarnate   
MoI Soulborn   
MoI Totemist   

[/spoiler]
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #784 on: April 07, 2011, 10:30:55 PM »
CA Wu Jen

CD Shugenja

Tier 2.

Quote
CD Spirit Shaman

Tier 2, sub Tier 1. Its just a Druid without Wildshape/Animal Companion, but still has all of the spells.

Quote
EXPh Wilder

CP Ardent

Tier 2

Quote
CP Divine Mind

Tier 5

Quote
CP Lurk

Tier 3 or Tier 4.

Quote
PHII Dragon Shaman

Tier 4 at best.

Quote
ToM Shadowcaster

Tier 3, possibly Tier 2.

Quote
ToM Truenamer

Tier 9000. Unplayable without incredible amounts of optimization; mediocre even with that much, then it suddenly breaks the campaign when it gets Gate at will.

Quote
DM Dragonfire Adept

Tier 4, possibly Tier 3.

Quote
MoI Incarnate

Tier 4, sub Tier 3. And fixed.

Quote
MoI Soulborn

Tier 6.

Quote
MoI Totemist

Tier 3.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #785 on: April 07, 2011, 11:03:28 PM »
While I haven't looked over most of those well enough to rank them, Sinfire's analysis sounds about right (within 1 tier for all of them I'm pretty darn sure).

The Truenamer, however, is in fact mentioned.  It doesn't fit in the system due to the specifics of the class.  Basically, the system assumes comperable levels of optimization... a poorly optimized Wizard is stronger than a poorly optimized Fighter while a heavily optimized Wizard is still stronger than a heavily optimized Fighter, for example.  But for Truenamers, you can't do that... a poorly optimized (or even mid optimization) Truenamer is basically Tier 6, unable to actually do much more than a Commoner in most situations, because it can't even make the skill checks.  A heavily optimized Truenamer is capable of actually doing something... but not much at all compared to equivalent optimization of other classes, really, until they hit level 20 and can suddenly spam Gate.  So they bounce around the tiers too much based on their optimization.  If I had to, I'd probably say they're around T4-5 when heavily optimized until they hit level 20, but even that's kind of a toss up.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #786 on: April 07, 2011, 11:12:00 PM »
If I had to, I'd probably say they're around T4-5 when heavily optimized until they hit level 20, but even that's kind of a toss up.

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Bortasz

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #787 on: April 07, 2011, 11:52:49 PM »
Thanks for quick answer :)

PS Divine Mind Really only 5 and Wilder 2?
I was thinking Divine 3-4
Wilder also 3 - 4 (Only 11 Powers :? )   
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[spoiler]It bears saying: if up against a logic-impervious DM who thinks Core is balanced and Psionics*  isn't, then the most powerful way to disprove that is to play a C.o.D. (Cleric or Druid). Noncore material will not be necessary unless you are going for pure overkill (Draconic Wildshape? Divine Metamagic?). So by all means, if you must win that argument, take you C.o.D. to town. Annihilate the opposition. Make the NPCs and other players scream "Oh no, it's C.o.D.zilla!!!!!" in badly dubbed English. Breathe radioactive fire. Knock down buildings. Then stomp out of the burning Tokyo that is the ruins of the game and swim off into the ocean, seeking a DM with some basic cognitive functions. [/profile]

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #788 on: April 08, 2011, 12:05:00 AM »
Thanks for quick answer :)

PS Divine Mind Really only 5 and Wilder 2?
I was thinking Divine 3-4
Wilder also 3 - 4 (Only 11 Powers :? )   

Wilder has PsyReform and gets 9th level powers. It is Tier 2 by default, even with 11 powers known.

Divine Mind has horrible class features, limited manifesting, and low PP, all because it has a Base Attack Bonus of 3/4s. You are better off playing a PsiWar or Lurk than a Divine Mind. Do remember that the Manifester Level hit hurts your PP/Day, and you have what amounts to 3 domains worth of powers to choose from (of which you only get 9 powers total, meaning you can't even pick that many).

If it had Full BAB, twice as many powers known, and didn't need to spend a feat on Practiced Manifester, it would have been a decent class. But it sucks.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #789 on: April 08, 2011, 12:19:24 AM »
Normal wilder: high tier 3, it might have a trick or two but it's way too limited
Educated wilder: tier 2 due to more powers known in exchange for a worthless class feature

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #790 on: April 08, 2011, 12:20:15 AM »
Shadowcaster is tier 3 at best, unless their are some awesome as hell evocation  spells of 6th level and lower that I don;t know about.

Soulborn is T5, its very comparable to a fighter in what it can do. The don't get as effective feats for combat, but they are swappable, and scalable.
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Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #791 on: April 08, 2011, 12:29:12 AM »
I would put Soulborn at low T5 rather than T6, too. It's not so bad that it completely fails to function, it's just.. not good.

Also, when discussing Divine Mind, don't forget the auras! Sure, most of the mantle auras are crap, but the non-mantle attack and AC auras are decent. They won't change its tier significantly, but they're probably one of the best things the Divine Mind brings to the table. Which.. is something I guess?

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #792 on: April 08, 2011, 12:32:14 AM »
Well, there is that consumable-spam technique.

I factored that in.  Remember how optimized everyone else would be at that level.  I mean, to be functional the Truenamer needs custom gear and almost certainly Item Familiar, plus the consumables trick requires getting even more custom magic items.  At that point, you're comparing him to other classes that also have exactly the perfect custom gear they wanted... yes, this includes partially charged wands and who knows what else.  So with enough optimization to pull off that trick and function, is he really stronger than a Fighter with all the perfect gear?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #793 on: April 08, 2011, 06:47:57 AM »
Quote
CD Spirit Shaman

Tier 2, sub Tier 1. Its just a Druid without Wildshape/Animal Companion, but still has all of the spells.
I disagree.  Tier 3.  The Druid spell list as a whole is good, but individual spells are really situational.  Also, the power level of Druid spells in the level 5-8 range is pretty low, even if you factor in all the splatting that's occurred since the class' release.  These problems are compounded by the Spirit Shaman's extremely limited access to the spells outside of "retrieving" them at the start of the day.

Quote
CP Lurk

Tier 3 or Tier 4.
Tier 4.  It's weaker than a Rogue in all areas with the exception of it's limited Manifesting ability, which barely compensates.

Quote
PHII Dragon Shaman

Tier 4 at best.
Tier 4 easily.  It's capable in a lot of areas: does some specialized skill-monkeying, has interesting options with it's breath weapon, supports a party well with it's auras, and Touch of Vitality is a highly under-valued ability.  It's big problem is that it doesn't get any new tricks at all past level 11, and nothing advances it's class features (aside Legacy Champion and similar, obviously).

Quote
ToM Shadowcaster

Tier 3, possibly Tier 2.
Tier 3.  None of the Mysteries are really game-breaking at all.  The raw power just isn't there for Tier 2.

Quote
MoI Incarnate

Tier 4, sub Tier 3. And fixed.
Easily Tier 3.  It has a very broad range of very effective tricks.  Even though a Totemist is more effective in straight-up combat, this class is certainly capable at combat and very effective outside of it.

Quote
MoI Soulborn

Tier 6.
As much as this class deserves it's hate, it's still Tier 5.  Tier 6 is a special kind of terrible reserved for Commoners and CW Samurai.  It's just not THAT bad.

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #794 on: April 08, 2011, 07:32:34 AM »
I pretty much agree with Sinfire Titan's analysis, but I want to add that the Wu Jen is a solid, maybe high T2 while Shugenja is probably a low one.

Wu Jen suffers for having a lot of spells that require a regular ranged attack rather than ranged touch, but they also have some nice unique spells and most of the solid workhorses of the core Sor/Wiz list.  The Spell Secrets are also a nice bonus.  Probably the biggest thing keeping them out of T1 territory is the lack of support outside CA.

Shugenja, on the other hand, only even have access to 3/4 of their spell list (since they lose their opposition school) and half their repertoire comes from their favored school (which comprises 1/4 of their spell list).  Without something that adds directly to spells known or some heavy PrCing, they're really good at one or two things, passable at between two and five other things, and useless at a couple more things.  That sounds basically like a T3-- the level 9 spells they do get are probably all that bumps them into T2 territory.

I also want to mention that Wild Surge, though awesome at level 1, really drags the Wilder down at higher levels-- not down out of mid-T2, but still down.  By 20, he's almost always better off not doing it.

X-Codes is probably right about the Lurk.  I wish it were better, but it just isn't.

X-Codes

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #795 on: April 08, 2011, 07:40:31 AM »
I also want to mention that Wild Surge, though awesome at level 1, really drags the Wilder down at higher levels-- not down out of mid-T2, but still down.  By 20, he's almost always better off not doing it.
I think the best way to handle this is to PrC out of Wilder at 7th level.  Wild Surge +3 at the risk of 7 PP isn't a terrible tradeoff relative to the Overchannel feat.

CrimsonDeath

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #796 on: April 08, 2011, 10:24:10 AM »
I also want to mention that Wild Surge, though awesome at level 1, really drags the Wilder down at higher levels-- not down out of mid-T2, but still down.  By 20, he's almost always better off not doing it.
I think the best way to handle this is to PrC out of Wilder at 7th level.  Wild Surge +3 at the risk of 7 PP isn't a terrible tradeoff relative to the Overchannel feat.
Definitely a good idea, and it bumps the Wilder up a bit inside its tier.  A bit more optimization and it might jump to the next one.  I was trying to stick to the spirit of the thread and assume a baseline of 20 levels in a single class, but if I misunderstood then I apologize.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #797 on: April 08, 2011, 01:15:08 PM »
Quote
CD Spirit Shaman

Tier 2, sub Tier 1. Its just a Druid without Wildshape/Animal Companion, but still has all of the spells.
I disagree.  Tier 3.  The Druid spell list as a whole is good, but individual spells are really situational.  Also, the power level of Druid spells in the level 5-8 range is pretty low, even if you factor in all the splatting that's occurred since the class' release.  These problems are compounded by the Spirit Shaman's extremely limited access to the spells outside of "retrieving" them at the start of the day.
And how is that any different from a Druid's extremely limited access of preparing spells at the start of each day?  The only major difference I can see is the metamagic mechanic on Spirit Shamans.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #798 on: April 08, 2011, 03:24:07 PM »
Quote
CD Spirit Shaman

Tier 2, sub Tier 1. Its just a Druid without Wildshape/Animal Companion, but still has all of the spells.
I disagree.  Tier 3.  The Druid spell list as a whole is good, but individual spells are really situational.  Also, the power level of Druid spells in the level 5-8 range is pretty low, even if you factor in all the splatting that's occurred since the class' release.  These problems are compounded by the Spirit Shaman's extremely limited access to the spells outside of "retrieving" them at the start of the day.
And how is that any different from a Druid's extremely limited access of preparing spells at the start of each day?  The only major difference I can see is the metamagic mechanic on Spirit Shamans.
concur.
if anything, I'd go so far as to say that Sp.Sh. casting is a little better than druid.  Sure, you can't get quite as many different spells, but you can cast all day long.

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #799 on: April 08, 2011, 04:06:58 PM »
I pretty much agree with Sinfire Titan's analysis, but I want to add that the Wu Jen is a solid, maybe high T2 while Shugenja is probably a low one.

Wu Jen suffers for having a lot of spells that require a regular ranged attack rather than ranged touch, but they also have some nice unique spells and most of the solid workhorses of the core Sor/Wiz list.  The Spell Secrets are also a nice bonus.  Probably the biggest thing keeping them out of T1 territory is the lack of support outside CA.

Shugenja, on the other hand, only even have access to 3/4 of their spell list (since they lose their opposition school) and half their repertoire comes from their favored school (which comprises 1/4 of their spell list).  Without something that adds directly to spells known or some heavy PrCing, they're really good at one or two things, passable at between two and five other things, and useless at a couple more things.  That sounds basically like a T3-- the level 9 spells they do get are probably all that bumps them into T2 territory.

I also want to mention that Wild Surge, though awesome at level 1, really drags the Wilder down at higher levels-- not down out of mid-T2, but still down.  By 20, he's almost always better off not doing it.

X-Codes is probably right about the Lurk.  I wish it were better, but it just isn't.

Actually, it should be noted that nowhere in the class description for the Shugenja does it say you need to pick a school that's the same as your favored element (so long as you obey the opposition restriction), so you can use that to round up his selection a bit.

Also, did you mean the Shugenja at the beginning of your post? It sounds like you were making a case for something else.
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