Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 466239 times)

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #760 on: March 22, 2011, 02:29:14 PM »
Yeah, Duskblades received NO support. To think how they could've improved if subsequent books had expanded their spell-list... as it is, they all end up looking about the same.

Arcane Disciple gets expensive too. Never mind that they have only three or four really viable touch spells to channel.


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wotmaniac

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #761 on: March 22, 2011, 03:34:43 PM »
Yeah, Duskblades received NO support. To think how they could've improved if subsequent books had expanded their spell-list... as it is, they all end up looking about the same.

Arcane Disciple gets expensive too. Never mind that they have only three or four really viable touch spells to channel.
I may be a bit too straight forward in my thinking ..... but screw that.  War and Strength -- done.

:twocents:

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #762 on: March 22, 2011, 03:46:52 PM »
Yeah, Duskblades received NO support. To think how they could've improved if subsequent books had expanded their spell-list... as it is, they all end up looking about the same.

Arcane Disciple gets expensive too. Never mind that they have only three or four really viable touch spells to channel.
I may be a bit too straight forward in my thinking ..... but screw that.  War and Strength -- done.

:twocents:

It would be nice to have more options though. And there's always Seterous-worship for access to every domain, period.


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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #763 on: March 22, 2011, 04:08:10 PM »

It would be nice to have more options though. And there's always Seterous-worship for access to every domain, period.
Where's that from?

Mushroom

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #764 on: March 22, 2011, 04:09:15 PM »

It would be nice to have more options though. And there's always Seterous-worship for access to every domain, period.
Where's that from?
The snake from Elder Evils

Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #765 on: March 22, 2011, 04:18:31 PM »
Arcane Disciple also has the problem that the feat explicitly only lets you cast one AD domain spell of each level per day. Unless you pick up an all-day buff with it, AD isn't going to be solving any versatility problems in combat anytime soon. The feat is best used in my opinion for either utility spells (Desecrate, Magic Circle, and Awaken Undead for dread necros) or shenanigans (adding to the list of Shadowcraftable spells, meeting odd entry reqs, and so on).

wotmaniac

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #766 on: March 22, 2011, 04:45:34 PM »
Arcane Disciple also has the problem that the feat explicitly only lets you cast one AD domain spell of each level per day. Unless you pick up an all-day buff with it, AD isn't going to be solving any versatility problems in combat anytime soon. The feat is best used in my opinion for either utility spells (Desecrate, Magic Circle, and Awaken Undead for dread necros) or shenanigans (adding to the list of Shadowcraftable spells, meeting odd entry reqs, and so on).
Domain Spontaneity (CDiv) -- done.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Littha

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #767 on: March 22, 2011, 05:05:24 PM »
Dreadrainbow would probably fall under highly optimized up tier 2 clause. Certain prestige class, with odd requirements, and only looks good if you actually read the part that most people skip.
Dreadrainbow is a Tier 1 combination - at level 15 or so. It's got turn undead and it has the divine spell list. Unless you rule that those spells actually become arcane....
They don't, there is a specific note to that effect. Plus you can hit it at level 11 or 12 with trickery I think... and you are possibly better than a cleric because you have more spells per day and can just decide what spells you need as you encounter challenged... and more turn undead uses probably because of the CHA focus. Though you do lose out on two domains and the opportunity to take another prestige class I suppose.

Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #768 on: March 22, 2011, 05:16:01 PM »
Domain Spontaneity (CDiv) -- done.

Arcane Disciple does not grant you access to a domain. It adds a domain's spells to your class list and adds special restrictions to how you can cast them. If it granted you access to a domain, it would say so and would presumably refer to the rules laid out in the same book for granting access to domains. It is because it adds a domain's spells to your class list rather than granting domain access that the feat is so useful for Shadowcraft Mages.

Since Domain Spontaneity only applies to domains to which you have access, it does not work with Arcane Disciple.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #769 on: March 22, 2011, 07:22:03 PM »
Domain Spontaneity (CDiv) -- done.

Arcane Disciple does not grant you access to a domain. It adds a domain's spells to your class list and adds special restrictions to how you can cast them. If it granted you access to a domain, it would say so and would presumably refer to the rules laid out in the same book for granting access to domains. It is because it adds a domain's spells to your class list rather than granting domain access that the feat is so useful for Shadowcraft Mages.

Since Domain Spontaneity only applies to domains to which you have access, it does not work with Arcane Disciple.
I would concur on this.


They don't, there is a specific note to that effect. Plus you can hit it at level 11 or 12 with trickery I think... and you are possibly better than a cleric because you have more spells per day and can just decide what spells you need as you encounter challenged... and more turn undead uses probably because of the CHA focus. Though you do lose out on two domains and the opportunity to take another prestige class I suppose.
That confirms my judgement, doesn't it? It does take a definite Tier shift once you hit the cleric list.

Littha

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #770 on: March 22, 2011, 07:43:37 PM »
Yea but you may hit tier 0 with all that to be honest...

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #771 on: March 22, 2011, 08:27:28 PM »
Note that Divine Metamagic is for Divine spells only, so while a Rainbow Dread Necromancer has lots of turning attempts, he can't power that feat with them.

But yeah, either that particular combo or the old Dragonwrought Kobold with a Sovereign Archetype that adds all Cleric spells to you list results in something that's pretty close to a Cleric in power (more spontaneity, no DMM, which is better depends on campaign).  But that's extremely high optimization indeed.

JaronK

Benly

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #772 on: March 22, 2011, 08:37:34 PM »
Note that Divine Metamagic is for Divine spells only, so while a Rainbow Dread Necromancer has lots of turning attempts, he can't power that feat with them.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #773 on: March 22, 2011, 08:46:42 PM »
Ah, so all his newly gained spells are divine.  Yeah, that's nasty.  There's not many of his DN spells that he'd want to persist anyway.

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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #774 on: March 22, 2011, 09:01:11 PM »
Ah, so all his newly gained spells are divine.  Yeah, that's nasty.  There's not many of his DN spells that he'd want to persist anyway.

JaronK

Greater consumptive field.... yes I know it's advanced learning. :) And get Permanent Emanation once he hits epic.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #775 on: March 22, 2011, 09:17:40 PM »
If you don't take it as advanced learning, you'd get it as a Cleric spell anyway...

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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #776 on: March 22, 2011, 09:29:14 PM »
Yes, well... I'm just saying. :)

ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #777 on: March 22, 2011, 09:34:56 PM »
Don't Rainbow Servants require a lawful good alignment while dread necros are non-good?

Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #778 on: March 22, 2011, 09:37:06 PM »
Don't Rainbow Servants require a lawful good alignment while dread necros are non-good?
Meh, alignments... just reflavour. But of course, for a RAW-riding GM. Yeah... that sounds nice. RAW-riding.... damn. :twitch

Agita

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #779 on: March 22, 2011, 09:37:21 PM »
Don't Rainbow Servants require a lawful good alignment while dread necros are non-good?
Any nonevil and nonchaotic.
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