Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 452707 times)

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Kaelik

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #740 on: March 22, 2011, 02:40:23 AM »
Kaelik, I'm going to say this one last time:

I am aware of that.

Magic Circle, when used as a trap for a creature, gives a will save.  If it's off an item, that will save is vs a DC of 13 (it's the minimum).  An Efreeti has a base will save of +9, so he gets away the vast majority of the time (and then possibly attacks you).

Oh look, instead of admitting your mistake, you decided to make further rules mistakes. That's funny.

Even if it did work, it still requires the DM to hand you a specific item to break the game with (anyone can do that with a Candle of Invocation without the whole "it breaks out and tries to eat me" issue, so why do you think a Dread Necromancer is better at this than a Commoner?).

No, it requires you to obtain a specific item. Which you can easily obtain.

Further, most people don't allow Planar Binding Wish Loops.

I agree. Most people choose to nerf the Dread Necromancers best trick before anyone even chooses the class.

So no, it doesn't work the way you think it does, and it doesn't apply to the vast majority of this game.

It does work the way I think it does, and I never claimed it applies to most games. In fact, I explicitly claimed the opposite.

A Sorcerer, meanwhile, has access to whatever the best spells available are in the campaign at any given level.  Whatever the strongest spells allowed are, that's what he can have.  That applies to all games.   See the difference?

And the best spells are not better than the Dread Necros by an appreciable margin.

But seriously, explain how a Dread Necromancer using an Eternal Wand to get Efreetis is better than a Commoner using a Candle of Invocation to get Efreetis.  Don't forget the former has to negotiate and has a huge risk of the Efreeti trying to kill him, while the latter just succeeds.

Well, for starters, the Dread Necro doesn't have to spend XP. Secondly, the Dread Necro can acquire the necessary item easily, and successfully, without being murdered first, because he is a strong character. But in general, he's not  better than a Commoner using Candle of Invocation. But he is much better than a Commoner once game breaking cheese is negated.

That's not what infinite means.  Getting a decent number of miscellaneous skeletons or zombies starting at level 8, all well below the CR of the game being played, is not the same as infinite armies (and really doesn't do much in practice, no more than a bunch of under leveled sword and board Fighters would).  Hit squads of outsiders is still a Planar Binding thing (with all the same issues).

I know you can't understand how to use Planar Binding, but now you are telling me you don't understand how Command Undead works?

Okay, so that means you think before level 12 they're really not very strong regardless of banning because you've just said that Planar Binding represents every single Dread Necro overpowered trick.  Then why argue they're so strong?

Because they have many strong tricks that aren't broken, and so aren't banned. Hence, a good class without breaking the game, even when their method of breaking the game is removed.

Sure.  You think a Eternal Wand of Magic Circle will hold an Efreeti.  That's a stupid rules mistake.

Oh, so can you explain to me which Efeerti ability allows them to never roll a 1-4 on their dice? Or do they in fact, get held by a Wand of Magic Circle? Oops. Not that Eternal Wand is the only way. By all means, you can pay someone a small amount of money for a casting, and use that to call a monster which has the spell at will, and use it for CL days for that purpose, which you rebind regularly. Or you can use one of the bloodlines that gives it to you on your class list, or you can be a Rainbow Servant. But whatever, various ways you can get Magic Circle is not terribly important to the conversation about how you made 6 rule mistakes in that little quote, and can't see any of them. So I'm going to go ahead and ignore you now, since you've clearly demonstrated that you don't actually know the rules, even though I spelled them out to Oslecamo already in this thread.

Explain how Level 6 T3-4 is instant imbalance.

I did, half your Tier 3 classes are tremendously incompetent in combat, and the other half are as good as Wizards or Clerics.

Again, I played a party that started out Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Swordsage, Paladin of Tyranny.  Later on the players shifted and it became Dread Necromancer, Factotum, Swordsage, Paladin of Tyranny, Sorcerer, Cleric.  The PoT was behind the whole time.  The DN, Factotum, Swordsage, and Beguiler were all clearly at the same level.

I'd tell you that the plural of anecdote isn't data, but you don't even have multiple anecdotes. You have one. I freely admit that your players may have differing skill levels, and may all be too stupid to play well, or that your MC manipulated things to make people feel equal. All of those are possible, now can you stop bringing up that one time you played a game and they were all equal? I played a game with a Wizard and a Fighter that were relatively equal.

And no, the Dread Necromancer did not break out teleport at level 6 or 8.  Why on earth would you expect that?  They don't have a 4th level teleport spell.  Furthermore, the DN had trouble keeping up enough decent minions (too many Drow and Tieflings in that game... they make worthless skeletons because their power is all in their class levels).

Probably because Lesser Planar Binding is on their list.

Also, "I just kidnapped you, now give me something for nothing" is an unreasonable request.  You aren't getting wishes off an efreet without paying fairly for them.

Why do you think that they have a opposed Charisma check function if Planar Binding something and then asking it to do anything at all is unreasonable?

Maybe allowing yourself to be Mindraped is unreasonable, and maybe dieing and becoming my undead slave is unreasonable, but I'm pretty sure "use your abilities, for nothing" is not unreasonable, since the seriously made rules for how you can get it to do something for you, for nothing.

If this was Planar Ally, you'd have a point, because that does in fact require payment for anything at all, but Planar Binding specifically has rules for getting something for nothing.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #741 on: March 22, 2011, 03:42:38 AM »
Nobody is going to convince anybody else, why doesn't everybody just shut up about this argument or move it to another thread where it won't be a giant wast of space that only four or five people care about in a thread that a lot of people are subscribed to?
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #742 on: March 22, 2011, 05:17:50 AM »
Nobody is going to convince anybody else, why doesn't everybody just shut up about this argument or move it to another thread where it won't be a giant wast of space that only four or five people care about in a thread that a lot of people are subscribed to?
Nice to see you, too.

Kaelik, the ability to cast Command Undead =! infinite undead army.  Command Undead has a time limit, and you have to spend a spell on it every time you want to cast it.  So, let's say we're at level 4.  The DN has 4 level 2 slots each day.  He can command roughly 16 undead creatures with the Command Undead spell by giving up *all* of his second level slots per day.  That's pretty nifty, but it comes at a pretty steep cost and isn't really practical.

Also, Efreet have plane shift at will.  Even if we don't consider the stupid broken option of binding Efreets, almost everything worth binding has something along the lines of Greater Teleport at will or innate spellcasting.  To capture those guys, you still need Dimensional Anchor.  Wands are more expensive than Candles of Invocation, so they're right out.  Scrolls require a higher UMD check at 24, which a 12th-level Dread Necromancer isn't nearly as well equipped to use as an Expert is without spending feats.  Also, if the thing you're trapping has SR, then you need to overcome that with a static +7 bonus that the item is giving you.  There's really no way to optimize that number unless you ask for a custom-made scroll.

Finally, I didn't say that all Sorcerers have MotAO.  I said that all optimized Sorcerers have some method of expanding their spell list beyond their spells known, and mentioned MotAO as probably the single largest source of spell versatility for them, with no monetary cost at that.  Even without MotAO, Sorcerers have Runestaves, Eternal Wands, and Domains by which they can expand their spell list just like the Dread Necro (and many of these they can use without needing to invest in Use Magic Device, which the Dread Necro has to use to even activate an Eternal Wand of Magic Circle).  Hell, they can even go into Rainbow Servant themselves and cherry-pick the best of the Cleric list for their own use.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #743 on: March 22, 2011, 06:21:42 AM »
Dear Kaelik:  Read the full spell description of Planar Binding.  Then read the full spell description of Magic Circle Against Evil.  Then read the Efreeti entry.

You will see that it is a shitload of trouble that doesn't even closely resemble "little effort" or even within the scope of the DN without specific optomization to make it happen.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #744 on: March 22, 2011, 01:00:16 PM »
Dear Kaelik:  Read the full spell description of Planar Binding.  Then read the full spell description of Magic Circle Against Evil.  Then read the Efreeti entry.

You will see that it is a shitload of trouble that doesn't even closely resemble "little effort" or even within the scope of the DN without specific optomization to make it happen.

I just read it, and it doesn't seem like that much of a pain in the ass considering the rewards. If it's legal in your campaign it seems like a given to do it with any character, since the only spell above 4th level is Planar Binding itself.

You can ignore its spell resistance with that stupid fucking diagram. Then you don't really care about all the other requirements, because even if an Efreeti whomps your save it's just plain WORTH IT to try again and again until you succeed. You have a 1 in 5 chance of win, and that's without augmenting anything.

Now I admit I'm way behind on caster tricks because I think D&D magic is shit (I hate x/day, forget-when-you-use it, power-from-a-book, etc.) and so I've deliberately focused my efforts in all other aspects of the game, but from what I read, the only question you need to ask in a game is "Is this legal in this game?" After that, there's nothing stopping you from doing it really easily. I think the point of the arguments was "DN can't do anything special with it," with which I agree. If you need more stuff after infinite wishes (Which you're getting 6-7 levels early) then I think D&D players are a bunch of greedy ungrateful bitches.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #745 on: March 22, 2011, 01:14:35 PM »
Yes, a Commoner with the right selection of feats and skills can planar bind an Efreet and initiate an infinite wish loop.  This is possible only because of poor wording on the part of the Wish spell and convenient ignorance of the in-game DM Fiat catch built into the planar binding spell, and that's the negotiation.  That's why this guide leaves stupid broken shit like that out.

Likewise, any commoner can work their little farmland and earn enough gold to someday buy a Candle of Invocation.  Once he does, he can gate in not just an Efreet, but a Solar, Pit Fiend, or any number of other big nasties long before a Wizard can do it with his own collection of spells.  While that's a bit of an extreme example, it really can be said of any one-time-use magic item that replicates a powerful, abusable spell.  That's why this guide leaves items out of consideration.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #746 on: March 22, 2011, 01:22:23 PM »
The big difficulties to start with are A) the will save is based on Magic Circle (see the Magic Circle spell, which is clear on this point) and B) since Efreetis can Plane Shift at will, you still need Dimensional Anchor so Eternal Wands won't help here.  You need a high enough UMD score, and if you're spending through scrolls now there's even more resources dedicated to it.  You could easily just be blowing through scrolls to make Efreetis attack you for a while.

In the end, you spend more trying to do it this way than just buying a Candle of Invocation, which every class can do and which works better in every way.  If your DM is going to allow Efreeti wish loops, then the Candle is in play anyway (it's required for the loop) so there's absolutely no situation where the ability to Planar Bind without knowing the other needed spells is better than just buying the Candle.  DNs have no special ability to get the necessary magical gear either, so a DN has absolutely no advantage over any other class in this Planar Binding trick, despite having one of the necessary spells on their list.  I'm certainly not ranking the DN higher in the tiers because of some broken trick that requires the DM to give you just the right gear for it.

Also, Kaelik has now made it clear that he thinks the best trick of the DN is only available at level 12 (and it's worse than what every class in the game can do anyway), so I think that settles that the DN is not as strong as previously claimed.  Plus, he thinks DNs are as good as Wizard or Clerics (in fact, he thinks half the T3-4 classes are)... and he believes the one class in that group that actually gets the Wizard list and breaks the action economy is in the "tremendously incompetent in combat" category.  So, since no one else here seems to think DNs are absolutely amazing simply because they can almost abuse wish loops as well as every other class in existence, I think I'm done with this one.  He's been unable to show the DN as being actually comparable to a Sorcerer without such cheese (seriously, he listed Blindness/Deafness as being an amazing combat option... compared to Glitterdust).

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #747 on: March 22, 2011, 02:07:13 PM »
I've read it twice, and as far as I can tell the circle does NOT offer a will save to the bound creature. That's the save against planar binding in the description for planar binding.

The circle offers a will save to those it protects and evil creatures that try to enter it, that's the (harmless). It never says anything about offering a save to bound creatures. It says it sucks as a trap, but as far as I can tell that's an outright lie because the trapped creature can't do shit to disrupt the circle.

It would appear that when focused outward you offer a save, but when focused inward you offer none but must overcome spell resistance, which you can straight up fucking ignore by doodling on the ground with some sidewalk chalk.

I would consider the spell "harmful" to trapped creatures, so the will save in the description with the (Harmless) addendum strikes me as a different save.

Even if you wanted to offer the save, it's still a 3rd level spell, and so I don't know why people talk about Eternal Wands, a normal wand will do. It'll be expensive, but once again the investment strikes me as so incredibly worth it that if it's allowed you do it with any risks as well. Dimensional Anchor is also 4th, and so it's just part of the investment.

So even if you make the circle offer a save, you're at least level 11 when you're doing it unless your DM's an even bigger fucking idiot, so you and your party are pretty capable of smacking down any uppity Efreeti (CR 8) who make the save.

Once again I'm not great with caster tricks so I may be wrong (I'd prefer to be wrong), it just strikes me as being completely worth its cost even in the worst case scenario (Two will saves). It's obviously something a DM shouldn't allow or should at least make really difficult, but if it's allowed and as easy at it looks then I struggle to imagine a scenario in which it wouldn't be a given.

I also probably wouldn't do it unless I got the impression the DM had prepared for me to do it (In a high power game for example), because I believe in sportsmanship and there's nothing sportsmanlike about fapping to RAW (Can you tell I think TO caster shit is really stupid?). The spell combination, like all other broken spells, is complete fucking bullshit and gives too much for too little.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 02:10:12 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Kajhera

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #748 on: March 22, 2011, 02:13:30 PM »
Wait... this 'trick' is inviting an efreeti to grant you a wish?

Frick, mates, you're all masochists.

There's a reason my party was only willing to ask noble djinn for their wish-related services.

Very respectfully, and with Gate.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2011, 02:17:47 PM by Kajhera »

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #749 on: March 22, 2011, 02:20:37 PM »
Wait... this 'trick' is inviting an efreeti to grant you a wish?

Frick, mates, you're all masochists.

There's a reason my party was only willing to ask noble djinn for their wish-related services.

Very respectfully, and with Gate.

I'm pretty sure the whole point is getting it before you can usually get gate, but even with that in mind it did strike me that people who think this is a great trick are giant assholes, because as Lycanthromancer said in an earlier post, you can actually fucking do them a favor instead of being such an entitled prick.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #750 on: March 22, 2011, 03:05:41 PM »
I've read it twice, and as far as I can tell the circle does NOT offer a will save to the bound creature. That's the save against planar binding in the description for planar binding.

The circle offers a will save to those it protects and evil creatures that try to enter it, that's the (harmless). It never says anything about offering a save to bound creatures. It says it sucks as a trap, but as far as I can tell that's an outright lie because the trapped creature can't do shit to disrupt the circle.

It would appear that when focused outward you offer a save, but when focused inward you offer none but must overcome spell resistance, which you can straight up fucking ignore by doodling on the ground with some sidewalk chalk.

I would consider the spell "harmful" to trapped creatures, so the will save in the description with the (Harmless) addendum strikes me as a different save.
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This is correct, actually, I retract my previous statement. Upon re-reading, the spell has range(touch), and no target entry. Only the creature touched or the target gets the save, unless otherwise mentioned. You don't touch the creature trapped, you touch the circle, hence the only save is vs. binding.

And then you're right again, because even a deal of one wish worth of stuff for giving two wishes worth of stuff to the efreet is a GOOD deal. I usually handle it the other way around, but by my reckoning, this is still something that Efreet would WANT to happen.  Hey, come here, guys, bind us, we'll give you stuff, you give us stuff, because we're a badly designed monsters.

In my game(s) there is worldly and divine regulation on this, and if you don't follow the rules you probably won't even find an efreeti who still has his wishes, but it surely does work.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #751 on: March 22, 2011, 03:37:04 PM »
The save doesn't matter one bit because the DN will just do it over until it works. Planar Bind isn't a combat spell that needs to work in a pinch, it's something you do on downtime.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #752 on: March 22, 2011, 03:55:36 PM »
The save doesn't matter one bit because the DN will just do it over until it works. Planar Bind isn't a combat spell that needs to work in a pinch, it's something you do on downtime.

The point was that the critter can escape and then be really mad at you. Well... since a calling&killing room should belong to every DN's hideout anyway, that't not such a big issue. Just plaster the room with those paralyzing glyph's, I forget the name, and then poke it to death.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #753 on: March 22, 2011, 03:57:02 PM »
The save doesn't matter one bit because the DN will just do it over until it works. Planar Bind isn't a combat spell that needs to work in a pinch, it's something you do on downtime.

The point was that the critter can escape and then be really mad at you. Well... since a calling&killing room should belong to every DN's hideout anyway, that't not such a big issue. Just plaster the room with those paralyzing glyph's, I forget the name, and then poke it to death.

Actually I think the point is "It's CR 8 so you don't care if it doesn't work, and you can spam the spell so you don't care if it doesn't work."
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #754 on: March 22, 2011, 04:14:04 PM »
So whats the break down between warmages and duskblades? They look like they should be on the same tier.

Dreadrainbow would probably fall under highly optimized up tier 2 clause. Certain prestige class, with odd requirements, and only looks good if you actually read the part that most people skip.
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Kajhera

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #755 on: March 22, 2011, 04:19:44 PM »
The save doesn't matter one bit because the DN will just do it over until it works. Planar Bind isn't a combat spell that needs to work in a pinch, it's something you do on downtime.

The point was that the critter can escape and then be really mad at you. Well... since a calling&killing room should belong to every DN's hideout anyway, that't not such a big issue. Just plaster the room with those paralyzing glyph's, I forget the name, and then poke it to death.

Actually I think the point is "It's CR 8 so you don't care if it doesn't work, and you can spam the spell so you don't care if it doesn't work."

And I'm sure the efreet's granted wishes will turn out precisely how you want them to when it does work.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #756 on: March 22, 2011, 04:20:20 PM »
Nobody is going to convince anybody else, why doesn't everybody just shut up about this argument or move it to another thread where it won't be a giant wast of space that only four or five people care about in a thread that a lot of people are subscribed to?

I'm actually forced to second this. This is a VERY specific debate that will span several more pages before one of you gets tired or other people do.

Further, the one point you're arguing is pointless. Only in very few given campaigns are all the Wizard/Sorcerer/Druid/Cleric/Archivist/Psion tricks gonna fly. Judging the Dread Necro by whether a specific trick will be allowed in a given campaign is, therefore, a complete waste of time.

The tier system is a THEORETICAL system. It's not supposed to measure what any given class WILL do, it's supposed to measure what a class CAN do.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #757 on: March 22, 2011, 05:11:21 PM »

The tier system is a THEORETICAL system. It's not supposed to measure what any given class WILL do, it's supposed to measure what a class CAN do.
Hmm, but by that reasoning, Kaelik is right. The only difference is, you actually have to assume that a class has NO resources. And by that reckoning, the DN can animate corpses at level 18, with Plage of Undead, which AFAIK costs nothing.
Or you assume that a class gets nothing but necessary "implements", like craptons of onyx for animating...

So whats the break down between warmages and duskblades? They look like they should be on the same tier.

Dreadrainbow would probably fall under highly optimized up tier 2 clause. Certain prestige class, with odd requirements, and only looks good if you actually read the part that most people skip.
Duskblades should probably be Tier 4, because their versatility is less than it could be, and they have a couple of drawbacks. They are like arcane barbarians.

Dreadrainbow is a Tier 1 combination - at level 15 or so. It's got turn undead and it has the divine spell list. Unless you rule that those spells actually become arcane....


And I'm sure the efreet's granted wishes will turn out precisely how you want them to when it does work.

They will, because you pick those options that the GM can't screw you for. Read the spell. 25K gold, +1inherent, etc...

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #758 on: March 22, 2011, 05:13:12 PM »
Yeah, Duskblades received NO support. To think how they could've improved if subsequent books had expanded their spell-list... as it is, they all end up looking about the same.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #759 on: March 22, 2011, 06:04:11 PM »
They will, because you pick those options that the GM can't screw you for. Read the spell. 25K gold, +1inherent, etc...

Those options don't screw over the Wish caster. However, there's no reason the caster can't choose to bake a screwjob into the wish. The SLA of an efreet is to "grant up to three wishes", and there's no clearer definition given - there's no reason to assume they don't get to set the details of the wish as they cast it, as long as it's within the boundaries the recipient requested. Since efreeti are "infamous for their hatred of servitude and cruel nature" and "love to mislead", it should not be surprising if they deal out such screwjobs even when offered a "fair deal".

(If they want a wish of their own, they can Plane Shift to the material, seek out a commoner and offer him the two-for-one deal - that way, they don't have to deal with some jerk who thinks he can bind the efreet to his will.)