Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 455021 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #720 on: March 21, 2011, 09:39:18 PM »
Probably Illumian.

But does no good, I'm not in the habit of letting people write into the backstory of their level 1 characters that they discovered the hidden jungle temple of the couatls, and you have to actually be able to do that, either by paying for spells, or casting them yourself, or doing it in game once it's started, to get that.
"I am an orphan, raised by wolves coatls. I have a thing for feathered boas."
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Littha

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2155
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #721 on: March 21, 2011, 09:41:54 PM »
Probably Illumian.

But does no good, I'm not in the habit of letting people write into the backstory of their level 1 characters that they discovered the hidden jungle temple of the couatls, and you have to actually be able to do that, either by paying for spells, or casting them yourself, or doing it in game once it's started, to get that.
"I am an orphan, raised by wolves coatls. I have a thing for feathered boas."
only if you get to hang around with a bear voiced by phil harris

Brainpiercing

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1475
  • Thread Killer
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #722 on: March 21, 2011, 09:47:11 PM »
Kaelik: Ok, so it doesn't make sense to compare classes, then what do YOU propose. I see the Tier system as an effort of guidance - subjective, possibly error prone effort, but at least something, and it's proven pretty useful. That other guy... I forget... at least made a new Tier system to compete (I still have a screenshot somewhere of three tier systems side by side :)).

I understand that JaronK likes to use really weird examples sometimes, and seems to actually play things that would be kicked straight out of every other campaign, and he - apparently - sometimes wants to justify this by saying that these classes are inherently unbroken. So... he's not perfect, nor is the Tier system as it is. So what?

Spontaneous list casters vs sorcerors were ALWAYS a huge point of contention. The general idea remains, that a limited list is inherently less broken than an "unlimited" list.

The placement of classes with weird new abilities are likewise a problem.

But the core argument remains: As a GM, if I want an easily manageable game, I can say: No Tier 1s and 2s. And that's it. Or I can offer big benefits to the lower Tiers, whatever. And then... probably it will be easier to keep the PCs in check.

In order to un-break a wizard (or sorc) with a transparent pre-game set of house-rules, I have to basically look through every fricken supplement ever written (and ban large parts of the PHB).
In order to un-break a (single-classed) DN I have to ban one spell, or just ban a particular use of it, or remove a single monster from the game. That's it.

(That being said, I think DNs do need Planar Binding, because being a zookeeper sucks, and it's the only way to get that ONE powerful monster that can be your everyday meatball. )

And that assumes that using these things indeed do break the game, which I believe isn't a complete given.

So that's one use the Tier system has. That's what some people don't like - a measure of how easy it is to break the game, that's not a very nice way to categorize classes.

However, I think the real, actual categories still hold true, and if you do read them, then I think they make sense:
incompetent<narrowly semi-competent and still mostly useless<competent in one narrow area<generally competent<narrowly campaign-wreckingly competent<come here, reality, and suck me off.

And you can argue about specific details, but I think those are good categories, and they make sense. And basically... I would agree with most of the placements. However, some classes are easier botched, and some are easier boosted to higher levels. Equal optimisation is an ideal, one that you probably won't ever find in a group, but you still have to presume it, because so far, there is no better way. I've certainly seen wizards played as solid tier 5s, and have personally been accused of wrecking, or damn near wrecking, a campaign with completely mundane melee char, who could do NOTHING but hit things with a big stick. These things happen, and they can happen within one group.

So Kaelik, do you have a proposition? Then be so kind as to bring it forward.

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #723 on: March 21, 2011, 10:16:49 PM »
The fact that you could possibly say what you did means you have exactly zero understanding of what I just said.

a) By your own Logic, Dread Necros, Beguilers, Hell, even Commoners, fit in tier 2. Because everything is narrowly game breaking.

b) The whole point is to not judge classes with reference to their ability to break the game at all, and instead judge them when they are not breaking the game. So being able to break the game 600 ways is not better than being able to break it once, because broken is broken.

c) The whole point of my criticism is that as an MC, using the Tier system at all is less than useless, because it makes you think you are fixing things when you aren't.

If a Solid Sorcerer is the equal to, but not better than a Solid Dread Necro, then it does no one any good to put them in different Tiers, so people go around banning Sorcerers and allowing Dread Necros, and people who wanted to play a Sorcerer with Glitterdust, but no undead army are screwed. Or you can have people play Favored Souls instead of Warblades to bring them up to the rest of the party, only to find out that they are now weaker, because they are a known spell based MAD caster with a list full of short term buffs, some not as good as Wizards save ors off their dual attribute.

d) It's not that equal optimization will never occur, but must be presumed, it's that if you presume equal optimization, the Dread Necromancer is better at every level of optimization. At no optimization at all, it gates in Efeerti, and wishes up infinite things and breaks the game. At every higher level of optimization, it still does that. The Dread Necro class has written in it "Instantly be more powerful than anything else ever." So equal optimization, as a concept, makes no sense.

e) It is not incumbent on me to create a system in order to decry the existing one. If the system sucks, it sucks regardless of whether or not I can tell you anything better.

e) A system, if I were going to put any work into it, which I won't, that makes more sense would be a pair of Tiers, that instead of measuring how powerful they are in relation to each other, at either maximum potential, or "equal optimization" sets a power level, and says "Here is how easy it is to build a character of this power level" and in a second tier set, "Here is how easy it is to play at that power level."

So Wizards are hard to build to power set X, and hard to play at power set X. And Sorcerers are hard to build at power set X, but easy to play at power set X, and Dread Necros are easy to build, and hard to play (or maybe easy to play, I don't care). Ect.

That would be a system that actually tells new players "Hey, these classes are powerful right out of the box." or "Here are some classes you should probably build for the newbie, then explain what they have as options, and they can play it really easy." Ect.

Bloody Initiate

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 798
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #724 on: March 21, 2011, 10:23:11 PM »
To be clear, I don't even think that the Rainbow Servant trick is that good. Yeah, it's great at level 16, but for level 1-15, you are just a Dread Necro and then a Dread Necro with some domains. That's not bad by any means, but if your main trick doesn't kick in until level 16, it's not going to come into play in most games.

Just to inform:

Apparently the Rainbow Warsnake comes online at 11 assuming your DM allows flaws and shit because you can get early entry into Rainbow Servant at 2. (Heighten, Earth Spell, something else, RelentlessImp told me about it)

I can't see allowing it personally, but I'm not the GM of the world.

Probably Illumian.

But does no good, I'm not in the habit of letting people write into the backstory of their level 1 characters that they discovered the hidden jungle temple of the couatls, and you have to actually be able to do that, either by paying for spells, or casting them yourself, or doing it in game once it's started, to get that.

It's not a race thing, it's a feat combo that lets you count your spells as higher. The feats are in Races of Stone, Earth Spell and something else.

As for the special requirements, to me those are half the fun of such PrCs. Who gives a shit about becoming an assassin if you don't get a badass side-quest to murder some fool for the guild?
I don't employ memes. Mass-produced ammunition, even from reputable manufacturers, tends to malfunction on occasion.

Benly

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 436
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #725 on: March 21, 2011, 10:31:15 PM »
My issue with Rainbow Servant in an optimization context is that it's nine levels of a respectable but unimpressive class and then a tenth level that's crazy. In a low-op game, the tenth level blows other things that are going to be around out of the water. In a high-op game, you're going to be way behind the curve for nine levels.

(Yeah, I think the first several levels are respectable. Full casting with three bonus domains isn't bad, it's just that there are a lot of crazy-good things out there and this isn't one of them until 10.)

Brainpiercing

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1475
  • Thread Killer
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #726 on: March 21, 2011, 10:54:56 PM »
Quote
e) A system, if I were going to put any work into it, which I won't, that makes more sense would be a pair of Tiers, that instead of measuring how powerful they are in relation to each other, at either maximum potential, or "equal optimization" sets a power level, and says "Here is how easy it is to build a character of this power level" and in a second tier set, "Here is how easy it is to play at that power level."

So Wizards are hard to build to power set X, and hard to play at power set X. And Sorcerers are hard to build at power set X, but easy to play at power set X, and Dread Necros are easy to build, and hard to play (or maybe easy to play, I don't care). Ect.

That would be a system that actually tells new players "Hey, these classes are powerful right out of the box." or "Here are some classes you should probably build for the newbie, then explain what they have as options, and they can play it really easy." Ect.

So that's a USEFUL suggestion. I can concede to some of your other points, and I'll disagree with others.

I believe there were efforts in that direction already, but I can't seem to remember where exactly.

Also, that would be a really useful handle for GMs to pick up. Let's take, for instance, the Beguiler and the Binder. By JaronK, they are in the same Tier. Now... they aren't even in the same league where ease of play is concerned. I can pick up a Beguiler, and give it Power attack and Cleave, and it probably still won't suck (if I at least give it some decent Int). But I can pick up a Binder and screw it up in any number of ways.

However, I also see this as an assistance to the Tier system, not a replacement. Like sub-tiers based on ease of play.

oslecamo

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1940
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #727 on: March 21, 2011, 10:56:35 PM »
d) It's not that equal optimization will never occur, but must be presumed, it's that if you presume equal optimization, the Dread Necromancer is better at every level of optimization. At no optimization at all, it gates in Efeerti, and wishes up infinite things and breaks the game. At every higher level of optimization, it still does that. The Dread Necro class has written in it "Instantly be more powerful than anything else ever." So equal optimization, as a concept, makes no sense.
How exactly:
-Finding one specific monster among hundreds of others.
-Geting at least two obscure items that you wouldn't get otherwise.

Is no optimization at all? You just described an optimization trick!

Geting a candle of invocation would be that much faster. And anybody can do it. And it still is some optimization, because you needed to read one whole extra book.

e) A system, if I were going to put any work into it, which I won't, that makes more sense would be a pair of Tiers, that instead of measuring how powerful they are in relation to each other, at either maximum potential, or "equal optimization" sets a power level, and says "Here is how easy it is to build a character of this power level" and in a second tier set, "Here is how easy it is to play at that power level."

So Wizards are hard to build to power set X, and hard to play at power set X. And Sorcerers are hard to build at power set X, but easy to play at power set X, and Dread Necros are easy to build, and hard to play (or maybe easy to play, I don't care). Ect.

That would be a system that actually tells new players "Hey, these classes are powerful right out of the box." or "Here are some classes you should probably build for the newbie, then explain what they have as options, and they can play it really easy." Ect.

Altough I kinda agree with this, you have to take in acount that chain binding with items support is something every damn class can do. So no, the dread necro isn't automatically stronger than anything ever just because he has planar binding. He's actually just as strong as the lowly commoner with a candle of invocation if chain binding is allowed.

Thus chain binding is discarded, because even commoners can do it to gain unlimited power. What super tricks does the dread necro has left then?


JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #728 on: March 21, 2011, 11:41:29 PM »
Kaelik, you've clearly missed the point entirely.  Which is too bad, because the point is written in rather clearly.

A)  It's not about "is it possible, via this crazy combination of stuff, to break the game with this class?"  All classes can be made to break the game with the right combos.  If a DM wants to break the game in some way, he can.  If he allows the players to do so and they want to, they can too.  Candle of Invocation = done.  That's not the point at all.  The question is "as a DM, what classes are more likely to be an issue?" and "as a player, what classes should I be worried about?"  The Sorcerer isn't Tier 2 because of one specific trick.  It's Tier 2 because there are many possible ways for a player to use a Sorcerer to do things that the DM didn't want... even without actually trying to break the game.  A great example would be one game I was playing in where it was set in the Underdark and intentionally low on magic items.  We had plenty of money, but nothing worth buying.  The DM had established a long time earlier that traveling caravans of magic item sellers would gate into major cities from the City of Brass (which was the magic item trade capital) and have a one to three day bazaar where they'd sell magic items (but only the ones they'd chosen to bring), then gate away.  Also, the major plot line was that a shadow disease thing was spreading through the Underdark and converting or destroying all it touched.  So the Sorcerer did the absolutely logical thing...  she took Plane Shift as a spell known so as to go to the City of Brass and get whatever items we might need.  This was a newbie player doing exactly what was perfectly logical... and it's game breaking, since it completely shifted the game away from what the DM wanted to run.  Thus, it's a T2 class... it's a class where, as a DM, you have to watch it more carefully, and as a player you need to be ready to ask a DM "is this power going to be okay in your campaign?"  If it was a T1 class it would be even worse... you'd have to check their spells each day to make sure it was going to be okay.  For a T5-6 class, it's the opposite... the question as a player is "will this be able to play in your campaign" and for the DM is "what do I have to do to make sure that class is useful?"

Do you see the difference between that and a player going out of their way to get Arcane Disciple (I hope you've figured out why Eternal Wands won't work) for Magic Circle and another Arcane Disciple for Dimensional Anchor (a scroll of that might work, shame you don't have UMD...) so they can Planar Bind Efreetis for infinite wishes?  That's a player going out of their way to break the game... it's not just built into the class, nor is it some painfully obvious thing.  

B)  Judging classes by which one's just better is little more than a penis waving contest.  Who cares about how they play when they're not breaking anything?  If it all works, it works, and everyone's happy.  See, when people say "broken" what they mean is that the thing forced them to change their game because the game didn't work how it was supposed to due to that thing.  A Fighter can be "broken" if the DM has to change their game to keep the Fighter able to do anything... I've had two DMs complain of that very thing, where they had to add in random fights where they made no sense just because the pure melee character would have nothing to do otherwise.  Our group got to the point of leaving the melee back at the safe house while we ventured out with stealth and social classes into a hostile city because he was just a liability.  That's breaking the game in the weak direction, because now the plotline the DM wanted to run can't be done (one player can't participate).  And of course we're all familiar with breaking the game in the other direction... when the DM has to change everything because the caster has some power that just negates everything (such as the classic caster teleporting between continents to the destination city and thus skipping the entire pre planned naval voyage adventure).  Lord of the Rings would have been a pretty lame book if Gandalf had cast Greater Teleport and just popped the whole party straight to the volcano (or if he'd just summoned giant eagles for them to ride...).

But if no adjustment needs to be made, if nothing's actually broken... who cares?  Ranking classes by who's more powerful when everything's working just fine and the players are all happy is just a "mine's better than yours" thing.  And that's not actually relevant to anything.

Now, if you want to write up a list of classes by difficulty to play, that would actually be useful.  Some classes are really easy to make work effectively (most of the "you have a small list but you know all of it" casters, the ToB classes once you figure out what maneuvers they have, Binders, Druids, etc) while others take a lot of work to figure out (Artificers, Archivists, Factotums).  There's an implied sense of that in the Tiers... if you think Wizards suck but they're ranked really high, it probably means it's just harder to play than you thought.  But an explicit list would be handy.

C)  You don't know how to use the system, which is why it's useless to you.  But I've seen a number of groups (mine is just one of them) that will just say things like "okay, this is a T3-4 game, level 6, mid level optimization."  Bam, instant balance.  Now, "mid level optimization" isn't perfectly defined, but it helps, and knowing the classes you're shooting for helps.  If you want to run that naval voyage adventure where the party has to deal with pirates on the high seas, you'd better keep the T1-2 classes out of it or they'll just teleport past... but it's fine to have level 12 T3-6 classes on that boat, and might make for a nice adventure.  If on the other hand you want a really challenging campaign where monsters play really smart and use all their abilities and the challenges shift day by day, you probably should make sure the players are using T3 and up only, as a Fighter just won't keep up so well there.  It's also useful if you're seeing balance issues in your party... if the Monk is clearly much stronger than the Warblade, as a DM do you house rule nerf the Monk?  Or do you check and see that the Monk is a much weaker class, and thus consider that maybe it's the fact that you let the player be a Half Minotaur Monk that's the issue?  Or do you maybe consider that the Warblade player may not know his class all that well and consider just helping him out?  It's useful for deciding where the problem lies.  It's also handy if you don't know the class too well... if a player says they'd like to play a Binder, is that going to be appropriate for a party that's got a Sorcerer, Beguiler, and Barbarian?  Well, if you don't know the class you could check and see that it probably should be okay.

D)  "if you presume equal optimization, the Dread Necromancer is better at every level of optimization. At no optimization at all, it gates in Efeerti, and wishes up infinite things and breaks the game. At every higher level of optimization, it still does that. The Dread Necro class has written in it "Instantly be more powerful than anything else ever." So equal optimization, as a concept, makes no sense."   -  I have no idea what the heck you're talking about here, since Dread Necromancers can't actually gate in Efreetis like that and actually get anything but a skeleton from them without pretty noticeable optimization and working at it.  I think it's already been demonstrated that your item plan doesn't work, and you've made it clear you think this Efreeti wish plan is the strongest thing you can think of for DNs to do (it's the example you keep using), so I'd say spending the necessary two feats that are the strongest possible pretty much counts as "very high optimization."  Really, if you're going for the strongest thing you can think of, then you should be comparing them to the highest level of optimization you can do for a Sorcerer... Sorc 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5, perhaps?

But again, if there's just one trick that a class can do and it requires a player going out of his way to break the game... that's not what I'm balancing based off of.  Yes, it could happen, but now the player's really trying... and I already state in the system that with sufficient optimization you can go up a tier.  Which is exactly what you're doing here... you're heavily optimizing the Dread Necromancer with the most powerful thing you can think of, and now he has one broken trick (Planar Binding based abuse).  That's the definition of T2 (very low T2, because he can't even do it until level 12).  He absolutely does not do this unless you really go for it.

JaronK

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #729 on: March 22, 2011, 12:04:23 AM »
How exactly:
-Finding one specific monster among hundreds of others.
-Geting at least two obscure items that you wouldn't get otherwise.

One not obscure item. Wands of Magic circle are not obscure. Dimensional Anchor is not needed. Hey, I want to know about Genies that grant wishes, because that seems like a good use of my ability to summon outsiders.

Altough I kinda agree with this, you have to take in acount that chain binding with items support is something every damn class can do. So no, the dread necro isn't automatically stronger than anything ever just because he has planar binding. He's actually just as strong as the lowly commoner with a candle of invocation if chain binding is allowed.

Thus chain binding is discarded, because even commoners can do it to gain unlimited power. What super tricks does the dread necro has left then?

Who cares? Sure, he still has infinite undead armies, and the ability to call hit squads of outsiders, and do everything else Planar Binding can do. (For example, give you 14th level Cleric casting at level 12).

But yes, as you progressively ban more of the Dread Necro's overpowered tricks, he gets weaker, but if you are going out of your way to ban every single Dread Necro overpowered trick, you aren't going to ban an equal number of Sorcerer tricks, and then let him do things just as broken, you are going to ban everything that is as powerful or more so than the Dread Necro tricks, and then you are going to be left with a Sorcerer that's about the same as the Dread Necro.

Yes, I think you should assume that Chain Binding is banned, and also that many other things are banned, and attempt to demonstrate how much work is required to reach the level of "contributes appropriately to encounters of EL = to level." Which for the commoner is a lot if even possible, and for the Dread Necro is really easy build wise, and for the Sorcerer is really hard build wise, but really easy in play for the Sorcerer, after it's built.

Do you see the difference between that and a player going out of their way to get Arcane Disciple (I hope you've figured out why Eternal Wands won't work) for Magic Circle and another Arcane Disciple for Dimensional Anchor (a scroll of that might work, shame you don't have UMD...) so they can Planar Bind Efreetis for infinite wishes?  That's a player going out of their way to break the game... it's not just built into the class, nor is it some painfully obvious thing.

...

I have no idea what the heck you're talking about here, since Dread Necromancers can't actually gate in Efreetis like that and actually get anything but a skeleton from them without pretty noticeable optimization and working at it.  I think it's already been demonstrated that your item plan doesn't work, and you've made it clear you think this Efreeti wish plan is the strongest thing you can think of for DNs to do (it's the example you keep using), so I'd say spending the necessary two feats that are the strongest possible pretty much counts as "very high optimization."

You know, there are a lot of people that I disagree with about a lot of things, but the ones I respect have something in common. They actually know the rules. Since you apparently don't, I have no respect for you. Name one of the stupid and completely wrong rule mistakes you made here, and I'll pretend to address you. 

B)  Judging classes by which one's just better is little more than a penis waving contest.

Still can't read I see. It's not about which class is better, it's a method of explaining class building and playing.

C)  You don't know how to use the system, which is why it's useless to you.  But I've seen a number of groups (mine is just one of them) that will just say things like "okay, this is a T3-4 game, level 6, mid level optimization."  Bam, instant balance.  Now, "mid level optimization" isn't perfectly defined, but it helps, and knowing the classes you're shooting for helps.  If you want to run that naval voyage adventure where the party has to deal with pirates on the high seas, you'd better keep the T1-2 classes out of it or they'll just teleport past... but it's fine to have level 12 T3-6 classes on that boat, and might make for a nice adventure.

No, that would be exactly the way to fail to use the Tier system, and exactly why it is a failure. Level 6 Tier 3-4 game is instant imbalance. And if the statement "mid level optimization" fixes that, it's because if you tell everyone to optimize to a specific level. But otherwise, you have a party that includes pieces of trash like the factotum (or god forbid, a fighter that can intimidate), with some of the most amazing classes in the game, like Beguiler and Dread Necro. And if you put them on the boat, the Dread Necro will break out teleport at level 8 (or 6 if he's using Versatile spellcaster) and you will feel like a fool.

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #730 on: March 22, 2011, 12:36:45 AM »
For all this talk about planar binding there's just one little thing......sorcerers can do the planar binding abuse much better than the dread nerco and still have many other tricks to either break the campaign or just simply be effective.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #731 on: March 22, 2011, 12:49:09 AM »
For all this talk about planar binding there's just one little thing......sorcerers can do the planar binding abuse much better than the dread neko and still have many other tricks to either break the campaign or just simply be effective.
Fixed.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Kajhera

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #732 on: March 22, 2011, 01:02:19 AM »
As someone who has never cared for planar binding, I don't care about planar binding.

(/useless tautology.)

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #733 on: March 22, 2011, 01:14:25 AM »
As someone who has never cared for planar binding, I don't care about planar binding.

(/useless tautology.)
There is no arguing against that logic.
Ja vuosia myöhemmin
kalvas kaksikko lattialla motellin tihrustelee,
kun sama keiju katossa leijailee.
Kyselevät: "Mikä päivä nyt on?
Tiedätkö sen?"
Kuiskaten laulaa keiju:
"Tämän elämän viimeinen."

Handy Links

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #734 on: March 22, 2011, 01:37:06 AM »
How exactly:
-Finding one specific monster among hundreds of others.
-Geting at least two obscure items that you wouldn't get otherwise.

One not obscure item. Wands of Magic circle are not obscure. Dimensional Anchor is not needed. Hey, I want to know about Genies that grant wishes, because that seems like a good use of my ability to summon outsiders.

Kaelik, I'm going to say this one last time:

Magic Circle, when used as a trap for a creature, gives a will save.  If it's off an item, that will save is vs a DC of 13 (it's the minimum).  An Efreeti has a base will save of +9, so he gets away the vast majority of the time (and then possibly attacks you).  Even if it did work, it still requires the DM to hand you a specific item to break the game with (anyone can do that with a Candle of Invocation without the whole "it breaks out and tries to eat me" issue, so why do you think a Dread Necromancer is better at this than a Commoner?).  Also, your trick doesn't work at all until level 12, which is after most people stop playing (most games are run at level 10 and down).  Further, most people don't allow Planar Binding Wish Loops.

So no, it doesn't work the way you think it does, and it doesn't apply to the vast majority of this game.

A Sorcerer, meanwhile, has access to whatever the best spells available are in the campaign at any given level.  Whatever the strongest spells allowed are, that's what he can have.  That applies to all games.   See the difference?

But seriously, explain how a Dread Necromancer using an Eternal Wand to get Efreetis is better than a Commoner using a Candle of Invocation to get Efreetis.  Don't forget the former has to negotiate and has a huge risk of the Efreeti trying to kill him, while the latter just succeeds. 

Quote
Who cares? Sure, he still has infinite undead armies, and the ability to call hit squads of outsiders, and do everything else Planar Binding can do. (For example, give you 14th level Cleric casting at level 12).

That's not what infinite means.  Getting a decent number of miscellaneous skeletons or zombies starting at level 8, all well below the CR of the game being played, is not the same as infinite armies (and really doesn't do much in practice, no more than a bunch of under leveled sword and board Fighters would).  Hit squads of outsiders is still a Planar Binding thing (with all the same issues).

So now you're saying Dread Necromancers are super powerful only if they get one specific higher level trick that doesn't even work properly.  Yay.

Quote
But yes, as you progressively ban more of the Dread Necro's overpowered tricks, he gets weaker, but if you are going out of your way to ban every single Dread Necro overpowered trick, you aren't going to ban an equal number of Sorcerer tricks, and then let him do things just as broken, you are going to ban everything that is as powerful or more so than the Dread Necro tricks, and then you are going to be left with a Sorcerer that's about the same as the Dread Necro.

You think the only overpowered trick a Dread Necromancer has is Planar Binding.  You have just said this.  Okay, so that means you think before level 12 they're really not very strong regardless of banning because you've just said that Planar Binding represents every single Dread Necro overpowered trick.  Then why argue they're so strong?

Quote
You know, there are a lot of people that I disagree with about a lot of things, but the ones I respect have something in common. They actually know the rules. Since you apparently don't, I have no respect for you. Name one of the stupid and completely wrong rule mistakes you made here, and I'll pretend to address you. 

Sure.  You think a Eternal Wand of Magic Circle will hold an Efreeti.  That's a stupid rules mistake.

Quote
Still can't read I see. It's not about which class is better, it's a method of explaining class building and playing.

Which would be an entirely different project.  Do you go into Wizard handbooks and complain that they don't teach how to play a Warblade, because you'd rather play a Warblade?

Quote
No, that would be exactly the way to fail to use the Tier system, and exactly why it is a failure. Level 6 Tier 3-4 game is instant imbalance.

Explain how Level 6 T3-4 is instant imbalance.

Quote
And if the statement "mid level optimization" fixes that, it's because if you tell everyone to optimize to a specific level. But otherwise, you have a party that includes pieces of trash like the factotum (or god forbid, a fighter that can intimidate), with some of the most amazing classes in the game, like Beguiler and Dread Necro. And if you put them on the boat, the Dread Necro will break out teleport at level 8 (or 6 if he's using Versatile spellcaster) and you will feel like a fool.

Again, I played a party that started out Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Swordsage, Paladin of Tyranny.  Later on the players shifted and it became Dread Necromancer, Factotum, Swordsage, Paladin of Tyranny, Sorcerer, Cleric.  The PoT was behind the whole time.  The DN, Factotum, Swordsage, and Beguiler were all clearly at the same level.

And no, the Dread Necromancer did not break out teleport at level 6 or 8.  Why on earth would you expect that?  They don't have a 4th level teleport spell.  Furthermore, the DN had trouble keeping up enough decent minions (too many Drow and Tieflings in that game... they make worthless skeletons because their power is all in their class levels). 

JaronK

Brainpiercing

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1475
  • Thread Killer
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #735 on: March 22, 2011, 02:00:43 AM »
Crap it's totally RAI that the critters can't save against the circle, but it's totally RAW that they can, as far as I can see. Duh.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #736 on: March 22, 2011, 02:02:36 AM »
Also, "I just kidnapped you, now give me something for nothing" is an unreasonable request.  You aren't getting wishes off an efreet without paying fairly for them.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #737 on: March 22, 2011, 02:15:46 AM »
Also, "I just kidnapped you, now give me something for nothing" is an unreasonable request.  You aren't getting wishes off an efreet without paying fairly for them.
I'd offer the third wish to the efreeti, with the stipulation that it can't be against me or to undo my first two wishes (I'd be the one making the wish for it, after all).

That's fair, right? After all, it's not like it could make the wish for itself in any case.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Bloody Initiate

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 798
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #738 on: March 22, 2011, 02:32:23 AM »
Also, "I just kidnapped you, now give me something for nothing" is an unreasonable request.  You aren't getting wishes off an efreet without paying fairly for them.
I'd offer the third wish to the efreeti, with the stipulation that it can't be against me or to undo my first two wishes (I'd be the one making the wish for it, after all).

That's fair, right? After all, it's not like it could make the wish for itself in any case.

This would have been how I originally did things. I don't know why people are such fucking dickheads that they thought of all these ways to fuck over the Efreeti when it's not that big a deal to actually exchange services. You're already talking about doing it multiple times, so what's only 2 wishes instead of 3? Seriously, greedy pig bastards fuck everything up for everybody every time.
I don't employ memes. Mass-produced ammunition, even from reputable manufacturers, tends to malfunction on occasion.

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #739 on: March 22, 2011, 02:35:48 AM »
The best kind of Evil Overlord is the one that makes everyone WANT to please him, and is really nice to everyone, but is utterly ruthless to people who do bad things to him and his.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]