Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 450259 times)

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Agita

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #620 on: March 08, 2011, 11:18:36 PM »
His point still stands that "Soulborn works if you take Shape Soulmeld" is saying more about Shape Soulmeld then the Soulborn.
Well, it says something about Soulborn in that it implies Soulborn doesn't work without the feat (which is pretty much true).
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #621 on: March 08, 2011, 11:21:25 PM »
His point still stands that "Soulborn works if you take Shape Soulmeld" is saying more about Shape Soulmeld then the Soulborn.
But we already know that Shape Soulmeld is an awesome feat, so many of the Incarnate melds are really good even without a bind.

That was my point. It's the feat, not the Soulborn. Also that a commoner could use the feat just as well as a Soulborn.

Saying a class with all knowledge skills gets great bonuses from knowledge devotion is a compliment to knowledge devotion, not the class.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #622 on: March 08, 2011, 11:24:00 PM »
His point still stands that "Soulborn works if you take Shape Soulmeld" is saying more about Shape Soulmeld then the Soulborn.
Well, it says something about Soulborn in that it implies Soulborn doesn't work without the feat (which is pretty much true).
It's again the BAB thing. ALL the incarnum classes would have been completely fine with full BAB. But the soulborn got it, and completely got the shaft in every other way.

So, IMHO it doesn't even exist for me.

(Hehe, Azurin Common with Shape soulmeld(Dissolving spittle) is a killing machine at level 1 :).

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #623 on: March 08, 2011, 11:38:24 PM »
BAB was definitely a factor in the amount of shafting, but really the people who made MoI just lacked balls entirely. The evidence of their cowardice is stamped all over the book. I really like MoI, but I also think blasting is cool, and in neither case does my fondness of the thing mean that the best minds were responsible for its implementation.

It's worth mentioning again that a creature with NO class levels has a higher meldshaper level than a Soulborn assuming it has more hit dice than half the Soulborn's level. I'm pretty sure could have done the commoner example with an advanced dire rat.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #624 on: March 08, 2011, 11:48:11 PM »
BAB was definitely a factor in the amount of shafting, but really the people who made MoI just lacked balls entirely. The evidence of their cowardice is stamped all over the book. I really like MoI, but I also think blasting is cool, and in neither case does my fondness of the thing mean that the best minds were responsible for its implementation.

I try to look at it on a positive light.

Aka it makes a wonderfull tool for DMs to pimp their monsters, specially those with lots of HD.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #625 on: March 09, 2011, 12:28:12 AM »
I don't have a problem with HD = meldshaper level, however I DO have a problem with Soulborn levels*.5 = meldshaper level. It's a completely unnecessary shackle on an already crippled class.

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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #626 on: March 09, 2011, 07:48:06 PM »
His point still stands that "Soulborn works if you take Shape Soulmeld" is saying more about Shape Soulmeld then the Soulborn.
But we already know that Shape Soulmeld is an awesome feat, so many of the Incarnate melds are really good even without a bind.

That was my point. It's the feat, not the Soulborn. Also that a commoner could use the feat just as well as a Soulborn.

Saying a class with all knowledge skills gets great bonuses from knowledge devotion is a compliment to knowledge devotion, not the class.
Except that a commoner doesn't use it as well, without serious opportunity cost. The commoner needs 2 level feats vs the soulborns  1 level feat and its bonus feat. At level 6 its 3 level feats for the commoner and 1 level feat, 1 bonus feat, and 1 pt of essentia from the class for the soulborn. The advantage is squarely with the soulborn. The feat doesn't even do anything by itself. 
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #627 on: March 09, 2011, 08:05:16 PM »
Yes, the commoner also has half BAB and shit saves. Do you have any point at all? I wasn't trying to say commoner > soulborn, I was pointing out that a commoner can get as much mileage out of Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar) as a Soulborn. Yes I accept that the Soulborn > Commoner, you have yet to make any point about anything.

Here's how it works: The feats don't matter. It doesn't matter if the Soulborn has 500 feats and the Commoner only get as many as normal, because neither the Soulborn nor the Commoner can invest 4 essentia into Incarnate Avatar until level 12. It's on page 19 of MoI under "Essentia Capacity." They BOTH need the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat and they BOTH need Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar) to be able to invest 4 essentia in Incarnate Avatar at level 12. The Soulborn has the sole advantage of acquiring a puddle of essentia due to his class, but that only means he needs one less Incarnum feat. This advantage is completely irrelevant because the commoner CAN have that extra Incarnum feat she needs by level 12, so it doesn't matter that she has fewer feats than the Soulborn, because her only goal in life is to show up the Soulborn, which she does.

So once again: What's your point? Shape Soulmeld is cool? Already knew that. Soulborns can slightly outpace a commoner in a feat race? Congratulations you won a pewter metal in the special Olympics. You're still a fucking 12th level Soulborn and get to sit in it while the commoner doesn't give a shit because no one confuses a commoner with a real character class. You apparently confused the Soulborn for one.
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #628 on: March 09, 2011, 10:35:05 PM »
Yes, the commoner also has half BAB and shit saves. Do you have any point at all? I wasn't trying to say commoner > soulborn, I was pointing out that a commoner can get as much mileage out of Shape Soulmeld (Incarnate Avatar) as a Soulborn. Yes I accept that the Soulborn > Commoner, you have yet to make any point about anything.
So what if he gets as much milage out of it? It took him 4 times the resources to do it.

Edit- What if I said better use out of it? Would that work for you?


Quote
So once again: What's your point? Shape Soulmeld is cool? Already knew that. Soulborns can slightly outpace a commoner in a feat race? Congratulations you won a pewter metal in the special Olympics. You're still a fucking 12th level Soulborn and get to sit in it while the commoner doesn't give a shit because no one confuses a commoner with a real character class. You apparently confused the Soulborn for one.
Shocktrooper, Doves, or Fey/Fiendish heritage line is  more than just slightly outpacing. Soulborn is getting better opportunity cost out of it.


Quote
The soulborn class brings nothing to it at all.
Except for essentia.

« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 10:48:30 PM by lans »
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #629 on: March 09, 2011, 11:08:24 PM »
So what if he gets as much milage out of it? It took him 4 times the resources to do it.

No it just took an extra feat. That's hardly 4 times the resources.

Shape Soulmeld (Soulborn also takes)

Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Soulborn also takes)

Bonus Essentia (Soulborn also takes. The Soulborn has 4 essentia without this feat at level 12, but will still take this feat because he/she pretty much has to. It's like taking Power Attack. The commoner has to take this feat to have the necessary essentia, but does not have to worry about building a viable character.)

Incarnum feat (Behold, four times the resources  :rollseyes)

The race choice isn't an expenditure of resources, it's an investment in a good character. Azurin would be good for either of them, as would other races with bonus essentia.

Also, just so we're clear, the Incarnum feats don't all universally suck. It's very likely that the Soulborn will have one too. The Soulborn and the Commoner could very likely take the exact same four feats because the same four feats work well for both of them. The only difference is that the Soulborn will have the essentia necessary without those feats, which as I've said doesn't matter because the commoner is here to prove a point and the Soulborn has to play the game. Furthermore, just because the Soulborn doesn't need those feats to gain the necessary essentia to fill Incarnate Avatar, it doesn't mean the Soulborn doesn't need those feats anyway for other reason. You do not need Power Attack to hit things, you just need it to make it matter when you hit them. Similarly the Soulborn doesn't need those feats to keep up with a commoner, he just needs them to keep up with everybody else, which he still fails to do.

By level 12 an Azurin commoner will have 6 feats and can fucking buy Toughness with the last two for all I care.

Except for essentia.

Which again, doesn't matter that much. As I explained in my last post, your total essentia doesn't matter after 4 for the purposes of this discussion. You cannot put more than 4 essentia into the soulmeld at level 12 without levels in a proper meldshaping class (Soulborn does not qualify), so you could have 6,347 essentia and 565 feats and it wouldn't matter because the commoner only needs 4 feats and 4 essentia and neither the Soulborn nor the Commoner can invest more than 4 essentia. The Soulborn needs fewer feats and gets more as well, but has to use them to attempt to matter, while the commoner would never be mistaken for a serious character.

Also as I said in my last post, I'm not trying to show that a commoner is a better class than a Soulborn, I'm just pointing out that your original statement that the Soulborn can get a lot of mileage out of the Shape Soulmeld feat is just as true for a fucking commoner as it is for a Soulborn, meaning that the Shape Soulmeld feat is cool and the Soulborn still sucks. Who cares about the amount of investment? My original jist remains true: The Soulborn can't do much that EVERYONE else can't do.

On a faintly related note, I'm not sure I said this already, but I think it's indicative of the spineless nature of the MoI authors that everything with a constitution score can get more out of Incarnate Avatar than the fucking Incarnate!
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 11:17:25 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #630 on: March 09, 2011, 11:22:49 PM »
So what if he gets as much milage out of it? It took him 4 times the resources to do it.

No it just took an extra feat. That's hardly 4 times the resources.

Shape Soulmeld (Soulborn also takes)

Expanded Soulmeld Capacity (Soulborn also takes)

Bonus Essentia (Soulborn also takes. The Soulborn has 4 essentia without this feat at level 12, but will still take this feat because he/she pretty much has to. It's like taking Power Attack. The commoner has to take this feat to have the necessary essentia, but does not have to worry about building a viable character.)

Incarnum feat (Behold, four times the resources  :rollseyes)
Thats only true if the +4/+8 is at 12, if its at 18, and the Soulborn doesn't take Bonus Essentia because it is in no way a required feat for him then it does in fact take 4 time the resources.



Quote
Also, just so we're clear, the Incarnum feats don't all universally suck. It's very likely that the Soulborn will have one too.

The soulborn is definately going to pick up an Incarnum feat at 3rd level. Also 7th and 11th.





Quote
Which again, doesn't matter that much. As I explained in my last post, your total essentia doesn't matter after 4 for the purposes of this discussion. You cannot put more than 4 essentia into the soulmeld at level 12 without levels in a proper meldshaping class (Soulborn does not qualify), so you could have 6,347 essentia and 565 feats and it wouldn't matter because the commoner only needs 4 feats and 4 essentia and neither the Soulborn nor the Commoner can invest more than 4 essentia.

It matters because the nonmeldshaping classes have to put extra resources into getting that 4 essentia.

Quote
Also as I said in my last post, I'm not trying to show that a commoner is a better class than a Soulborn, I'm just pointing out that your original statement that the Soulborn can get a lot of mileage out of the Shape Soulmeld feat is just as true for a fucking commoner as it is for a Soulborn, meaning that the Shape Soulmeld feat is cool and the Soulborn still sucks. Who cares about the amount of investment? My original jist remains true: The Soulborn can't do much that EVERYONE else can't do.

The soulborn will be getting more milage because he doens't have to put more feats into getting the essentia for the +4/+8. The Soulborn needs 1. So for every feat the commoner takes to get the essentia the soulborn can take another feat to get a bonus to hit or damage or another ability. If the Soulborn and Commoner both put exactly 1 feat into using the shape soulmeld the soulborn will have +4/+8 to hit and the commoner will have fucking zip from the feat.


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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #631 on: March 09, 2011, 11:35:55 PM »
Both of you please drop it. The Soulborn is a mistake (there's a lot of those kind of mistakes). Don't compare a mistake to something that was intentional (the Commoner).


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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #632 on: March 09, 2011, 11:48:30 PM »
Both of you please drop it. The Soulborn is a mistake (there's a lot of those kind of mistakes). Don't compare a mistake to something that was intentional (the Commoner).

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« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 11:56:59 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Agita

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #633 on: March 10, 2011, 12:23:02 AM »
So what stops a LE Totemist from picking up that +4/+8 instead, aside from competition for the Soul slot (and in any case, +1/+2 per essentia is extremely solid, especially on a Totemist)? :p Pretty sure those have no alignment restrictions either.
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #634 on: March 10, 2011, 01:35:46 AM »
So what stops a LE Totemist from picking up that +4/+8 instead, aside from competition for the Soul slot (and in any case, +1/+2 per essentia is extremely solid, especially on a Totemist)? :p Pretty sure those have no alignment restrictions either.

Absolutely nothing. As you sid, they have no alignment restrictions, which makes it even better because they can grab the Avatar that opposes their alignment too.


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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #635 on: March 10, 2011, 09:13:40 PM »
On a faintly related note, I'm not sure I said this already, but I think it's indicative of the spineless nature of the MoI authors that everything with a constitution score can get more out of Incarnate Avatar than the fucking Incarnate!
There is an alignment less adaption in the Incarnate Section. It loses its detect ability and its aura.

Sorry about the Soulborn thing. I didn't make my point very well. I'm going to try to restate it.

A Soulborn can get the second most use out of Shape Soulmeld:Incarnate Avatar, because he doesn't need to put as in other much opportunity costs into making it work. A single feat for +4 to hit and 8 to damage is very good. Non meldshaper classes need to take the feat, and another feat to get +2/4 to hit and damage. Which is meh at best. If the classes cap it out the Soulborn uses 2 feats for +5/10 to  hit and damage which is still not bad. A non meldshaper would need 6 feats for the same bonus, not counting race.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #636 on: March 11, 2011, 03:15:35 PM »
Seriously, lans, you've proven that the Soulborn is better than a commoner. Umm... yes we knew that beforehand.  We STILL know that it's a piece of crap.

As to the effect of the Incarnate Avatar (and Incarnate weapon): The effects depend on the meldshaper's alignment, so you could not shape the opposingly aligned effect. A true Neutral meldshaper would get no benefit whatsoever. Also, a dually aligned meldshaper with the feat would look like a freak, because both avatars would be superimposed around his body. Well... so the fluff implies this shouldn't happen, but the RAW contradicts it.

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #637 on: March 11, 2011, 06:06:47 PM »
Seriously, lans, you've proven that the Soulborn is better than a commoner. Umm... yes we knew that beforehand.  We STILL know that it's a piece of crap.
I was comparing the effects with a feat to every nonmeldshaping class.

Quote
As to the effect of the Incarnate Avatar (and Incarnate weapon): The effects depend on the meldshaper's alignment, so you could not shape the opposingly aligned effect. A true Neutral meldshaper would get no benefit whatsoever. Also, a dually aligned meldshaper with the feat would look like a freak, because both avatars would be superimposed around his body. Well... so the fluff implies this shouldn't happen, but the RAW contradicts it.
Yes, I assumed people knew how the system worked and could figure out that I was refering to a LE Soulborn.
I should have been more clear on that, as not everybody is familiar with the system.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #638 on: March 11, 2011, 06:08:23 PM »
You know a class blows when you're comparing it to a commoner.
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #639 on: March 11, 2011, 06:13:06 PM »
You know a class blows when you're comparing it to a commoner.
A wizard is like a commoner, but with full casting and some bonus feats.
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