Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 454985 times)

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Agita

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #600 on: March 05, 2011, 06:12:37 PM »
Well, fuck me running. I never noticed that sentence, nor did it cross my mind that melds might allow SR - they're (Su) abilities, why would they? Consider my opinion of Fearsome Mask revised.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #601 on: March 05, 2011, 07:04:00 PM »
...and I modified my "reviews" of the Soulborn-specific soulmelds.

That class is a tragedy. I really do like mauling gauntlets...
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #602 on: March 05, 2011, 07:48:02 PM »
Well, fuck me running. I never noticed that sentence, nor did it cross my mind that melds might allow SR - they're (Su) abilities, why would they? Consider my opinion of Fearsome Mask revised.
It does seem like a serious consistency error. They should most certainly NOT allow SR.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #603 on: March 05, 2011, 09:40:23 PM »
Well, fuck me running. I never noticed that sentence, nor did it cross my mind that melds might allow SR - they're (Su) abilities, why would they? Consider my opinion of Fearsome Mask revised.

Yeah, the SR thing never made sense, especially because soulmelds aren't labeled like spells are so there's really no way to tell (RAW, SR applies to the Rend damage on the Girallion Arms). The only way to make it make sense is to apply it to soulmelds that offer a saving throw to resist, which then tanks the Soulborn's soulmelds as there's no way to boost MsL.


Playing a Soulborn is like playing a CW spell-less Paladin (without Charging Smite or a Mount): You have no worthwhile class features outside of Smite.


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bearsarebrown

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #604 on: March 06, 2011, 01:59:16 AM »
Soulmelds have SR as an attempted balancing point. Just like how Invocations are Spell-Like Abilities that don't follow 80% of SLA rules.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #605 on: March 06, 2011, 03:18:40 AM »
Soulmelds have SR as an attempted balancing point. Just like how Invocations are Spell-Like Abilities that don't follow 80% of SLA rules.

Well, it's balanced without the SR anyway.


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Agita

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #606 on: March 06, 2011, 11:10:53 AM »
Well, fuck me running. I never noticed that sentence, nor did it cross my mind that melds might allow SR - they're (Su) abilities, why would they? Consider my opinion of Fearsome Mask revised.

Yeah, the SR thing never made sense, especially because soulmelds aren't labeled like spells are so there's really no way to tell (RAW, SR applies to the Rend damage on the Girallion Arms). The only way to make it make sense is to apply it to soulmelds that offer a saving throw to resist, which then tanks the Soulborn's soulmelds as there's no way to boost MsL.


Playing a Soulborn is like playing a CW spell-less Paladin (without Charging Smite or a Mount): You have no worthwhile class features outside of Smite.
At least the Paladin still has Divine Grace. The Soulborn doesn't even have that.
...Unless the CW ACF substitutes Divine Grace too? I've never really looked at it.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #607 on: March 06, 2011, 01:34:16 PM »
Soulmelds have SR as an attempted balancing point. Just like how Invocations are Spell-Like Abilities that don't follow 80% of SLA rules.

Well, it's balanced without the SR anyway.
It's not.... it's better than a fighter :).

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #608 on: March 06, 2011, 09:25:40 PM »
...Unless the CW ACF substitutes Divine Grace too? I've never really looked at it.


No, it just takes away spells for SLAs that mean nothing. Like Holy Sword 1/day at 16th level with a CL of 1/2 your Paladin level, improved healing with Lay on Hands when you target your mount, automatically overcoming DR/Good, and getting a psuedo-Rage 1/ay (duration 1 minute/class level, cannot turn it off).



They really didn't think that ACF through...


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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #609 on: March 08, 2011, 09:50:39 PM »
Soulborns make decent use of the Shape Soulmeld feat. A LE evil soulborn that takes Incarnate Avatar gets +4/+8 to hit and damage, which is on par with a barbarian attack and damage wise. Necrocarnum Crown is kinda comparable to a Paladins mount.

Edit-  I put the MoI Classes at 5,4,3 Soulborn, Incarnate, Totemist.  I go back and forth on whether Incarnate should be 3 or 4.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 09:54:36 PM by lans »
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #610 on: March 08, 2011, 09:57:15 PM »
Soulborns make decent use of the Shape Soulmeld feat. A LE evil soulborn that takes Incarnate Avatar gets +4/+8 to hit and damage, which is on par with a barbarian attack and damage wise.

That's not an argument for the Soulborn at all, but rather for the Shape Soulmeld feat, and it's still not an argument because I'm pretty sure you misunderstand how aligned soulmelds work. You cannot gain +4 to hit and +8 to damage, you gain either +4 to hit or +8 to damage.

The Incarnate Avatar Soulmeld takes the alignment descriptor you select, you cannot shape its other versions, and you must select one of the four not one from each axis.

Also if you're playing catch-up to the barbarian, you've already lost.

Allowing them to pull from two axises wouldn't break anything though. At least I don't think so. It might be a good house rule.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 10:01:06 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #611 on: March 08, 2011, 10:13:17 PM »
That's debateable.  After all, the soulmeld is simply "Incarnate Avatar."  The alignment restrictions on soulmelds are that you can't shape any that are not of your alignment.  As such, the LE Soulborn can use the Lawful or the Evil version with the same feat.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #612 on: March 08, 2011, 10:25:42 PM »
That's debateable.  After all, the soulmeld is simply "Incarnate Avatar."  The alignment restrictions on soulmelds are that you can't shape any that are not of your alignment.  As such, the LE Soulborn can use the Lawful or the Evil version with the same feat.

Hmm, rereading the class feature it looks like it IS debatable. While both the Incarnate and the Soulborn have a class feature called "Aligned Soulmelds," they do appear to work differently. I made the mistake of thinking they worked the same way.

So a Lawful Evil Soulborn CAN potentially play catch up to a barbarian.

Thank you for catching that, and my apologies for Ians for my own wrong-ness.

The thing is, that's still not a Soulborn-specific ability. Anyone can do that.
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #613 on: March 08, 2011, 10:38:58 PM »
That's debateable.  After all, the soulmeld is simply "Incarnate Avatar."  The alignment restrictions on soulmelds are that you can't shape any that are not of your alignment.  As such, the LE Soulborn can use the Lawful or the Evil version with the same feat.

Hmm, rereading the class feature it looks like it IS debatable. While both the Incarnate and the Soulborn have a class feature called "Aligned Soulmelds," they do appear to work differently. I made the mistake of thinking they worked the same way.

So a Lawful Evil Soulborn CAN potentially play catch up to a barbarian.

Thank you for catching that, and my apologies for Ians for my own wrong-ness.

The thing is, that's still not a Soulborn-specific ability. Anyone can do that.
Actually, only people with essentia pools of 4 or more can do that
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #614 on: March 08, 2011, 10:57:28 PM »
That's debateable.  After all, the soulmeld is simply "Incarnate Avatar."  The alignment restrictions on soulmelds are that you can't shape any that are not of your alignment.  As such, the LE Soulborn can use the Lawful or the Evil version with the same feat.

Hmm, rereading the class feature it looks like it IS debatable. While both the Incarnate and the Soulborn have a class feature called "Aligned Soulmelds," they do appear to work differently. I made the mistake of thinking they worked the same way.

So a Lawful Evil Soulborn CAN potentially play catch up to a barbarian.

Thank you for catching that, and my apologies for Ians for my own wrong-ness.

The thing is, that's still not a Soulborn-specific ability. Anyone can do that.
Actually, only people with essentia pools of 4 or more can do that

...which anyone can do.

Shape Soulmeld
Bonus Essentia
Any Incarnum feat

In that order.

or

Lawful Evil Azurin Commoner 3
Feats:
1. Shape Soulmeld [Incarnate Avatar]
Az. [Incarnum Feat]
3. Bonus Essentia

1 essentia from Azurin
1 essentia from any Incarnum feat
2 essenta from Bonus Essentia

Just gotta expand the capacity. So.. another feat and some waiting. Soulborn would have the same restriction.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 11:19:07 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #615 on: March 08, 2011, 11:06:26 PM »
That's debateable.  After all, the soulmeld is simply "Incarnate Avatar."  The alignment restrictions on soulmelds are that you can't shape any that are not of your alignment.  As such, the LE Soulborn can use the Lawful or the Evil version with the same feat.

Hmm, rereading the class feature it looks like it IS debatable. While both the Incarnate and the Soulborn have a class feature called "Aligned Soulmelds," they do appear to work differently. I made the mistake of thinking they worked the same way.

So a Lawful Evil Soulborn CAN potentially play catch up to a barbarian.

Thank you for catching that, and my apologies for Ians for my own wrong-ness.

The thing is, that's still not a Soulborn-specific ability. Anyone can do that.
Actually, only people with essentia pools of 4 or more can do that

...which anyone can do.

Shape Soulmeld
Bonus Essentia x2

In that order.

or

Lawful Evil Azurin Commoner 3
Feats:
1. Shape Soulmeld [Incarnate Avatar]
Az. [Incarnum Feat]
3. Bonus Essentia

1 essentia from Azurin
1 essentia from any Incarnum feat
2 essenta from Bonus Essentia
Illegal build is illegal. It also gets into opportunity cost, 1 feat vs 4 feats or 3 feats and a race.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #616 on: March 08, 2011, 11:08:24 PM »
Bonus Essentia can't be taken more than once. Would be nice if it could.


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bearsarebrown

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #617 on: March 08, 2011, 11:16:25 PM »
His point still stands that "Soulborn works if you take Shape Soulmeld" is saying more about Shape Soulmeld then the Soulborn.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #618 on: March 08, 2011, 11:17:52 PM »
His point still stands that "Soulborn works if you take Shape Soulmeld" is saying more about Shape Soulmeld then the Soulborn.
But we already know that Shape Soulmeld is an awesome feat, so many of the Incarnate melds are really good even without a bind.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #619 on: March 08, 2011, 11:18:29 PM »
That's debateable.  After all, the soulmeld is simply "Incarnate Avatar."  The alignment restrictions on soulmelds are that you can't shape any that are not of your alignment.  As such, the LE Soulborn can use the Lawful or the Evil version with the same feat.

Hmm, rereading the class feature it looks like it IS debatable. While both the Incarnate and the Soulborn have a class feature called "Aligned Soulmelds," they do appear to work differently. I made the mistake of thinking they worked the same way.

So a Lawful Evil Soulborn CAN potentially play catch up to a barbarian.

Thank you for catching that, and my apologies for Ians for my own wrong-ness.

The thing is, that's still not a Soulborn-specific ability. Anyone can do that.
Actually, only people with essentia pools of 4 or more can do that

...which anyone can do.

Shape Soulmeld
Bonus Essentia x2

In that order.

or

Lawful Evil Azurin Commoner 3
Feats:
1. Shape Soulmeld [Incarnate Avatar]
Az. [Incarnum Feat]
3. Bonus Essentia

1 essentia from Azurin
1 essentia from any Incarnum feat
2 essenta from Bonus Essentia
Illegal build is illegal. It also gets into opportunity cost, 1 feat vs 4 feats or 3 feats and a race.

What?

I'm not playing a forum game, I'm making a point. Magic of Incarnum includes feats that allow non-MoI classes to gain meldshaping ability.

If you can get up to four capacity (which is a matter of time) and you spend the feats ANYONE but an Incarnate can get +4/+8 attack/damage out of Incarnate Avatar.

For the record, if you want to "duel builds" or whatever, your original suggestion was nothing but a feat. The soulborn class brings nothing to it at all. So you used the same tools to make a point that I did, only you failed to make yours.

The soulborn class gets Essentia at the same level that you can take the Bonus Essentia feat. The soulborn class never gains an increase to soulmeld capacity, so it has to spend a feat for that too. You cannot invest 4 essentia in Incarnate Avatar until a certain level without the Expanded Soulmeld Capacity feat or the class features of a Totemist or Incarnate. So, the Soulborn has more essentia than a commoner, but a commoner and a soulborn who invest the same amount into meldshaping will be just as good with Incarnate Avatar.

Bonus Essentia can't be taken more than once. Would be nice if it could.

I'll amend my post.
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