Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 450261 times)

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #580 on: February 17, 2011, 01:46:19 AM »
Actually, even if the martial monk ignores the prerequisite for the feat... well, just note that it'd only do the feat prerequisite.  Martial study doesn't require a certain level or some many previous maneuvers of the discipline.  It allows you to pick a maneuver that you meet the requirement for.  Therefore picking a 9th level maneuver at level 1 would not so much be a thing of ignoring the feat prereq, as it would be ignoring the requirements of using the feat, like say getting a divine feat via this and then having inf uses because you are ignoring the conditions for use.

Hence only decent stuff from martial monk ignoring pre-reqs would... well, most likely be only epic feats, and even then I can't think of any decent ones there.  Better ones than non-epic feats, yes, but nothing actually powerful enough to make a monk awesome.
One of which includes initiator level and five other DW maneuvers - and you can only take the feat up to three times.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #581 on: February 17, 2011, 08:34:40 AM »
Hence only decent stuff from martial monk ignoring pre-reqs would... well, most likely be only epic feats, and even then I can't think of any decent ones there.  Better ones than non-epic feats, yes, but nothing actually powerful enough to make a monk awesome.

Epic Toughness at level 1 might not be bad, and Distant Shot for an archer isn't bad either.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #582 on: February 17, 2011, 10:17:54 AM »
Hence only decent stuff from martial monk ignoring pre-reqs would... well, most likely be only epic feats, and even then I can't think of any decent ones there.  Better ones than non-epic feats, yes, but nothing actually powerful enough to make a monk awesome.

Epic Toughness at level 1 might not be bad, and Distant Shot for an archer isn't bad either.

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Are they on the normal fighter list, though?  They're on the epic fighter list, but I'm not sure if that's the same thing.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #583 on: February 17, 2011, 10:36:07 AM »
Are they on the normal fighter list, though?  They're on the epic fighter list, but I'm not sure if that's the same thing.

I thought that was the same thing.  I dunno, I don't actually play in epic.  Weapon Supremacy (Unarmed Strike) would certainly be nice, as would Shock Trooper without Improved Bull Rush to skip a feat.  Spirited Charge without needing Mounted Combat or Ride By Attack might be worthwhile too.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #584 on: February 17, 2011, 01:00:12 PM »
Therefore picking a 9th level maneuver at level 1 would not so much be a thing of ignoring the feat prereq, as it would be ignoring the requirements of using the feat, like say getting a divine feat via this and then having inf uses because you are ignoring the conditions for use.
I think you're right, there.

Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #585 on: March 04, 2011, 11:46:35 AM »
Does reading a bad class ever really piss you off? It upsets me a lot.

In what Tier would you put the Soulborn from Magic of Incarnum? I looked through the first post and I didn't see it. I think it's Tier 5, but have less optimization skill than many on these boards.

As for why I think it's Tier 5:

Due to their extremely limited meldshaping ability and barren class features, the Soulborn fits no role they don't choose and they must specialize a lot to fill that role even marginally well.

It has a single unique alignment-specific class feature of limited power, Incarnum Defense, the benefits of which are widely available from other sources. Almost all of those other sources are easier investments than two class levels (The level at which Soulborns acquire Incarnum Defense).

To appear fighter-like, the Soulborn gains a pathetic three bonus feats from a limited list.

The Soulborn is barely worthy of being considered a meldshaping class, since it must wait for FOURTH LEVEL before it can shape any soulmelds at all. Any other character who takes the Shape Soulmeld feat can shape soulmelds earlier, and in fact the Soulborn must wait even LONGER (6th level) to even get any essentia!

Also the Soulborn only has half of its soulborn levels count towards meldshaper level. What a slap in the face!

In addition to the above, the Soulborn gets very few unique soulmelds. In fact, you can get the Soulborn-exclusive soulmelds before the Soulborn with the Shape Soulmeld feat. If ever there was a class that needed a doctor, this is it.

Of the five Soulborn-exclusive Soulmelds I counted (Fearsome Mask, Gloves of the Poisoned Soul, Mauling Gauntlets, Soulspeaker Circlet, and Thunderstep Boots), maybe 2 out of 5 are worth anything. The best ones might be worth the feats to use them but they're definitely not worth the four Soulborn levels to use.

Fearsome Mask: A good intimidate-booster that is probably easily replaced (It gives an insight bonus). The gaze attack would be good, but there are a few hiccups named SR, fear, mind-affecting, and will save. IF your enemy is vulnerable to fear and mind-affecting while also possessing no SR (remember the Soulborn uses half their levels for meldshaper level, so you're never overoming anyone's SR) and an abysmal will save then MAYBE you'll scare them.

Gloves of the Poisoned Soul: These give you a pretty good poison. Too bad it allows a save, thereby depleting a lot of its use.

Mauling Gauntlets: These are actually pretty good. Don't think about the hands bind, it'll just piss you off (If you are binding it to your hands then you probably have Improved Unarmed Strike. The hands bind... gives you Improved Unarmed Strike. The damage bonus is nice though.)

Soulspeaker Circlet: The throat bind gives you telepathy without calling it telepathy, so an ass GM could deny you, but if they don't there's your ticket to Mindsight. Largely utility, I like that this soulmeld basically allows you to change your languages known from day-to-day. The problem is that you need the Crown bind to speak the languages. It's also pretty wonky that the throat bind gives you telepathy and the crown bind gives you the ability to speak languages, because it seems like they should be vice versa. Perhaps this is further proof that whoever made the class was a stoned asshole.

Thunderstep Boots: A wee bit of additional sonic damage on a charge. If you invested a lot into this soulmeld you might be doing an additional 7d4 - on a charge - at level 20. Get pounce and it might add up, but if you don't have pounce don't even think about it, ever. If you bind it to your feat you can stun someone - if they fail a fortitude save - if they're vulnerable to stunning.

Oh and they also get smite. Since they don't get it at will, it doesn't save the class. The 20th level capstone is a fifth smite per day.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2011, 10:15:12 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Agita

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #586 on: March 04, 2011, 12:33:53 PM »
Fearsome Mask: A good intimidate-booster that is probably easily replaced (It gives an insight bonus). The gaze attack you get from binding this blows, so don't bother binding it.
What? It has no stated range, enemies who make their saves are not immune, and it says nothing ont he subject of fear stacking. This would lead me to think it defaults to unlimited range (as long as they can see you), enemies keep making saves every round, and if they're already Shaken, they can escalate to Frightened and then Panicked. That sounds pretty good to me.

Overall, though, I'm pretty sure you're right about the tier. The Soulborn is basically a Paladin with shitty meldshaping instead of shitty spellcasting, and the Pally is Tier 5, so yeah.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #587 on: March 04, 2011, 01:22:47 PM »
Well the rules for gaze attacks make it likely that the range is 30 feet, which doesn't even require a dick GM to fuck you. However I'll remove the "this blows" part.

Another note on the Soulborn sucking: A creature with no class levels has a higher meldshaper level than a Soulborn (pg. 53-54).

Almost every monster in any Monster Manual will have a higher meldshaper level than a same-level Soulborn. They won't be able to shape soulmelds without the Shape Soulmeld feat, but the important part is that they shit on the soulborn simply by existing. Take a soulmeld with a meldshaper level-dependent effect, have as many HD as the Soulborn has levels, and you are more capable with that soulmeld than the Soulborn before essentia and binds come into play (Which the Soulborn doesn't have for its first levels).

A commoner with Leadership can bring more meldshaping to to the table than a Soulborn.


The truth is that the team behind Magic of Incarnum had a really cool idea but applied way too many nerfs. Every single one of those classes was inappropriately held back, and you can see where the developers went limp for fear of getting their wrist slapped. So either the design team was too timid and terrified of making something "overpowered" or the editors were assholes. Either way the Soulborn feels incomplete, inadequate, and just overall very poorly done. If Soulmelds weren't flexible and cool the class features of the Soulborn would slap it down to Tier 6 easily.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 01:55:48 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #588 on: March 04, 2011, 03:12:06 PM »
Well the rules for gaze attacks make it likely that the range is 30 feet, which doesn't even require a dick GM to fuck you. However I'll remove the "this blows" part.

Another note on the Soulborn sucking: A creature with no class levels has a higher meldshaper level than a Soulborn (pg. 53-54).

Almost every monster in any Monster Manual will have a higher meldshaper level than a same-level Soulborn. They won't be able to shape soulmelds without the Shape Soulmeld feat, but the important part is that they shit on the soulborn simply by existing. Take a soulmeld with a meldshaper level-dependent effect, have as many HD as the Soulborn has levels, and you are more capable with that soulmeld than the Soulborn before essentia and binds come into play (Which the Soulborn doesn't have for its first levels).

A commoner with Leadership can bring more meldshaping to to the table than a Soulborn.


The truth is that the team behind Magic of Incarnum had a really cool idea but applied way too many nerfs. Every single one of those classes was inappropriately held back, and you can see where the developers went limp for fear of getting their wrist slapped. So either the design team was too timid and terrified of making something "overpowered" or the editors were assholes. Either way the Soulborn feels incomplete, inadequate, and just overall very poorly done. If Soulmelds weren't flexible and cool the class features of the Soulborn would slap it down to Tier 6 easily.

The Soulborn completely sucks, and the Incarnate SHOULD have been at least a 3/4 BAB class. BUT the totemist rocks, and Incarnum in general rocks, too. (It's clearly better than Pact Magic, at least, even though some select tricks may put pact magic ahead.)

The trouble with the Incarnum classes is once again the predicament of D&D design and base attack bonus: For some reason, the designers think BAB is the strongest thing there is, while in fact it's really just a miniscule feature.

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #589 on: March 04, 2011, 03:42:03 PM »
I don't have much experience with Incarnum, but Pact Magic can be pretty awesome, particularly when you place Anima Mage in the mix.
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Bloody Initiate

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #590 on: March 04, 2011, 03:51:11 PM »
I don't have much experience with Incarnum, but Pact Magic can be pretty awesome, particularly when you place Anima Mage in the mix.

Isn't Anima Mage just "I have aesthetic Pact Magic that allows me to cast more spells and use more metamagic"? Or "I am in the Tome of Magic but I'm really just another caster PrC that enhances casting"?

You suppress the powers of your bound vestige (thereby ignoring the mechanical benefits of Pact Magic) to use metamagic (Enhancing your pre-ToM spells). This seems less like a synergistic combination of things and more like original D&D casting ignoring the new shit just to enhance original D&D casting.

The Anima Mage doesn't do anything with Pact Magic except ignore it.

I'm not saying the Anima Mage isn't good, I'm just saying a compliment to Anima Mage is not a compliment to Pact Magic. It's just more buffing casters. You could just as easily suppress your Soulmelds or ignore the benefits of a stance. It's all just propping up the already well-propped casters by ignoring newer material.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 03:53:32 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #591 on: March 04, 2011, 04:07:07 PM »
Not quite.  Anima Mage requires you suppressing one vestige, but you probably have at least two bound.  When you decide you don't need the vestige (let's face it, Buer is useful out of combat, not so much in), then you suppress it for free metamagic.  Otherwise, you have new capabilities.  Regardless, you still have another vestige sitting there.

Pact Magic itself is pretty good.  A lot of varied abilities there even without going into the online vestiges.  The fact you can change up daily and you get decent benefits from having a pact (immunity to energy drain is amazing) as a straight Binder are nice as well.  Plus, Binder is probably the most versatile class as far as builds are concerned: you can go a little or a lot and the Binder really isn't hurt.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 04:09:22 PM by snakeman830 »
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #592 on: March 04, 2011, 04:18:44 PM »
Isn't Anima Mage just "I have aesthetic Pact Magic that allows me to cast more spells and use more metamagic"? Or "I am in the Tome of Magic but I'm really just another caster PrC that enhances casting"?

You suppress the powers of your bound vestige (thereby ignoring the mechanical benefits of Pact Magic) to use metamagic (Enhancing your pre-ToM spells). This seems less like a synergistic combination of things and more like original D&D casting ignoring the new shit just to enhance original D&D casting.

The Anima Mage doesn't do anything with Pact Magic except ignore it.

But it allows for synergy between casting and pacts.  For example, Astaroth gives you any item creation feat you want when you bind him.  Combine that with Anima Mage casting, and now you can actually make items on your own (otherwise you don't have the prerequisites).  Naberius combos amazingly with Sanctified and Corrupted spells.  And Pact Magic works all day, so it lets you do things when you'd otherwise want to avoid using spell slots.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #593 on: March 04, 2011, 04:24:23 PM »
Yes, which feels more like Pact Magic and original D&D casting working whenever they work and not relating to each other much except when it behooves original D&D casting to ignore Pact Magic.

It doesn't matter, like I said I wasn't dissing the class, I just don't think it really has anything to do with Pact Magic. As I said you could just as easily suppress a soulmeld or forgo the benefits of a stance, "Pact Magic" is mechanically irrelevant to the Anima mage's primary class features. There is no "give up a spell to gain more [vestige stuff]." It's just "cast and have vestiges, or ignore vestiges to cast."
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #594 on: March 04, 2011, 07:46:32 PM »
I find that many of the Vestige abilities allow you to shore up both on the defensive and offensive front, lending itself nicely to gishes.

Naberius has been mentioned to death, but being able to heal ability damage/drain is REALLY awesome, and it's something Arcane Magic simply DOES NOT LET YOU DO. Not without jumping through a couple of hoops anyway.

The fact that all Vestige Abilities are supernatural (and thus not subject to dispelling) means you get something to do when someone goes "haha, Dispel Magic" on your buffs, too.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #595 on: March 04, 2011, 08:25:06 PM »
Fearsome Mask: A good intimidate-booster that is probably easily replaced (It gives an insight bonus). The gaze attack you get from binding this blows, so don't bother binding it.
What? It has no stated range, enemies who make their saves are not immune, and it says nothing ont he subject of fear stacking. This would lead me to think it defaults to unlimited range (as long as they can see you), enemies keep making saves every round, and if they're already Shaken, they can escalate to Frightened and then Panicked. That sounds pretty good to me.

Overall, though, I'm pretty sure you're right about the tier. The Soulborn is basically a Paladin with shitty meldshaping instead of shitty spellcasting, and the Pally is Tier 5, so yeah.

You are forgetting that it allows a saving throw, thus is subject to SR. Because neither the Soulborn or Shape Soulmeld feat give you a decent ML to use the Fearsome Mask with, you end up never being able to use it past 6th level.



The Thunderstep Boots are there for people who have pounce. It applies to all attacks made on a charge, thus that's 7d4*# of attacks you can make.


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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #596 on: March 04, 2011, 08:51:09 PM »
Fearsome Mask: A good intimidate-booster that is probably easily replaced (It gives an insight bonus). The gaze attack you get from binding this blows, so don't bother binding it.
What? It has no stated range, enemies who make their saves are not immune, and it says nothing ont he subject of fear stacking. This would lead me to think it defaults to unlimited range (as long as they can see you), enemies keep making saves every round, and if they're already Shaken, they can escalate to Frightened and then Panicked. That sounds pretty good to me.

Overall, though, I'm pretty sure you're right about the tier. The Soulborn is basically a Paladin with shitty meldshaping instead of shitty spellcasting, and the Pally is Tier 5, so yeah.

You are forgetting that it allows a saving throw, thus is subject to SR. Because neither the Soulborn or Shape Soulmeld feat give you a decent ML to use the Fearsome Mask with, you end up never being able to use it past 6th level.
That's news to me. Where does it say that any meld that allows a save also allows SR?
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #597 on: March 05, 2011, 04:55:33 AM »
Fearsome Mask: A good intimidate-booster that is probably easily replaced (It gives an insight bonus). The gaze attack you get from binding this blows, so don't bother binding it.
What? It has no stated range, enemies who make their saves are not immune, and it says nothing ont he subject of fear stacking. This would lead me to think it defaults to unlimited range (as long as they can see you), enemies keep making saves every round, and if they're already Shaken, they can escalate to Frightened and then Panicked. That sounds pretty good to me.

Overall, though, I'm pretty sure you're right about the tier. The Soulborn is basically a Paladin with shitty meldshaping instead of shitty spellcasting, and the Pally is Tier 5, so yeah.

You are forgetting that it allows a saving throw, thus is subject to SR. Because neither the Soulborn or Shape Soulmeld feat give you a decent ML to use the Fearsome Mask with, you end up never being able to use it past 6th level.
That's news to me. Where does it say that any meld that allows a save also allows SR?
Could be looking at the wrong quote, but MoI 52 says that "Spell resistance is effective against any soulmeld used to affect a creature other than the meldshaper."

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #598 on: March 05, 2011, 05:15:06 AM »
Fearsome Mask: A good intimidate-booster that is probably easily replaced (It gives an insight bonus). The gaze attack you get from binding this blows, so don't bother binding it.
What? It has no stated range, enemies who make their saves are not immune, and it says nothing ont he subject of fear stacking. This would lead me to think it defaults to unlimited range (as long as they can see you), enemies keep making saves every round, and if they're already Shaken, they can escalate to Frightened and then Panicked. That sounds pretty good to me.

Overall, though, I'm pretty sure you're right about the tier. The Soulborn is basically a Paladin with shitty meldshaping instead of shitty spellcasting, and the Pally is Tier 5, so yeah.

You are forgetting that it allows a saving throw, thus is subject to SR. Because neither the Soulborn or Shape Soulmeld feat give you a decent ML to use the Fearsome Mask with, you end up never being able to use it past 6th level.
That's news to me. Where does it say that any meld that allows a save also allows SR?
Could be looking at the wrong quote, but MoI 52 says that "Spell resistance is effective against any soulmeld used to affect a creature other than the meldshaper."

Well they are supernatural abilities.

I think the "offers a save" thing is what tells you you're officially "affecting another creature" rather than yourself. For example growing claws isn't affecting another creature with a soulmeld, it's affecting yourself (The meldshaper) and then scratching the shit out of someone with your new manicure.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #599 on: March 05, 2011, 05:21:57 AM »
Fearsome Mask: A good intimidate-booster that is probably easily replaced (It gives an insight bonus). The gaze attack you get from binding this blows, so don't bother binding it.
What? It has no stated range, enemies who make their saves are not immune, and it says nothing ont he subject of fear stacking. This would lead me to think it defaults to unlimited range (as long as they can see you), enemies keep making saves every round, and if they're already Shaken, they can escalate to Frightened and then Panicked. That sounds pretty good to me.

Overall, though, I'm pretty sure you're right about the tier. The Soulborn is basically a Paladin with shitty meldshaping instead of shitty spellcasting, and the Pally is Tier 5, so yeah.

You are forgetting that it allows a saving throw, thus is subject to SR. Because neither the Soulborn or Shape Soulmeld feat give you a decent ML to use the Fearsome Mask with, you end up never being able to use it past 6th level.
That's news to me. Where does it say that any meld that allows a save also allows SR?
Could be looking at the wrong quote, but MoI 52 says that "Spell resistance is effective against any soulmeld used to affect a creature other than the meldshaper."

Well they are supernatural abilities.

I think the "offers a save" thing is what tells you you're officially "affecting another creature" rather than yourself. For example growing claws isn't affecting another creature with a soulmeld, it's affecting yourself (The meldshaper) and then scratching the shit out of someone with your new manicure.

Correct. It would be nice if they were more clear though.


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