Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 466243 times)

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MunchausAscendant

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #500 on: January 14, 2011, 09:54:09 PM »
From JaronK in response to a PM I sent him about the Warlock (reposted with permission):

Quote

You know, I had always meant to go through and talk about each class, but you should be aware that there are a series of threads called "why tier 3s are in tier 3" and so on.  You could check the tier 4 thread for further insights.

First off, remember that Warlocks don't get that creation ability until level 12.  The majority of games are actually played below level 10 (according to various surveys I've seen online) which means that most Warlock players will never even get Imbue Item, so it's weighted a bit less for that reason.

Second, while Artificers automatically get pretty much any item creation feat, Warlocks have to take those feats.  I don't imagine most Warlocks will take all of them, so a given Warlock likely only has Craft Wonderous Item, or Craft Scroll, or Craft Wand... but probably not even all three, let alone Craft Arms and Armor.  There are ways around this (Warlock 12/Chameleon 2, perhaps, or a party member with other item creation feats) but this makes it even less likely that a given Warlock can make the necessary magic item at a given level, while the Artificer almost certainly can make pretty much whatever.

And of course item creation takes time.  Someone completely dedicated to it is likely to take feats to shrink them time, but a Warlock likely can't spend that many feats on it, so once the game starts (which is again likely before level 12) it's not a guarantee he'll have enough time to make the really good stuff, while an Artificer will have crafted everything he can make at the given starting level (even if it's only level 3 or so) and has a better chance of making stuff later.  This gets us into the territory of "this class is powerful if the DM gives it some special consideration" since now the DM has to give you time to get things done, and that's classic Tier 4.  Note that getting a Dedicated Wright will help... but making one of those would require yet another item creation feat, and there's no guarantee an individual Warlock could do that (while it's a top priority for any given Artificer).

So, in the end, it's certainly possible to optimize a Warlock for magic item creation, generally by giving it access to the necessary feats (Chameleon 2, Binder+Anima Mage for Astaroth, etc), getting a dedicated wright, probably taking cost reducer feats (time, gold, and xp), and of course playing at least at level 12, that's not something most Warlocks will do... and that would count as heavy optimization, which will indeed take Warlocks up a Tier (or two, which is actually rare... few classes can get from below T2 to actual T2, but an optimized Warlock's ability to start making scrolls of whatever they want and special items as needed will do the trick).

So yes, as you say yourself, Item Creation isn't what most Warlocks do.  They're more likely to blast and go invisible and fly around.  If you play them really well and optimize for it, you can get up there, but most Warlocks won't do that.

« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 09:59:31 PM by MunchausAscendant »

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #501 on: January 14, 2011, 10:57:53 PM »
With permission, a copy of Munch's original question, as we decided this would be more useful in the public forum:

Quote
Hi there.

I've been recommending your tier system to people for a couple months now; though I've been playing D&D for, god, this is my twentieth year, reading what you've come up with has really expanded my understanding of how things fit together.  I mean, I always suspected that Wizards were much stronger than Fighters and that Paladins, in general, sucked, but being able to see why that was has been really nice.  (I've only recently really started playing at great length in long-running campaigns, despite my years and years of splash experiences.)  So for that write-up, thank you.

Now, a question:

I've just spent the last day or so reading through the entire "old" post, and only just now found the new one.  As I don't currently have the strength to keep reading through another twenty pages of people missing the point, I wanted to direct my question specifically to you, to wit:

I see that a Warlock is ranked as Tier 4.  Artificers, on the other hand, are Tier 1.  It looks to me that Warlocks get the same ability to craft any item they want, arcane or divine, through their Imbue Item ability, gained at level 12.

My reading of the rules suggests, to me, that Warlocks are technically capable of the same kind of game-breaking shenanigans as an Artificer, with the added benefit of being able to take 10 on UMD checks (it's been a month or so since I read through the Artificer's description so I can't recall if they get the same thing).  Granted that the Artificer gets all the Item Creation feats for free, a pool of XP and a two-level head start on accessing a given spell level (not to mention being able to do all this from level 1, rather than the Warlock's 12), doesn't the fact that Warlocks can do it at all merit Tier 2?

Or do you consider this a "fringe" case, not within the "typical" usage of the class?  I.e. the Warlock's "point" is to fire eldritch blasts, not make scrolls?

Just curious as to what your thinking is on this particular subject.  Apologies if you've articulated it elsewhere.

~Munch

I responded as per the quote above, and his response back:

Quote
Yeah, I saw those threads, but the Warlock wasn't discussed at much length.  I don't disagree that there's nothing special about their blasting capabilities (though I've yet to see what all the fuss is about with Archers, not that I've spent a lot of time looking), and that's all that was addressed.

The reason I was asking if they aren't maybe T2-worthy is because I thought your definition of T2 was "capable of breaking the game in a limited number of ways with some forethought."  As I pointed out in my initial note, no, they don't get many IC feats for free, but really you only need the one (Scribe Scroll) and then you've got djinns and solars and midgard wrights, oh my.  The L12 limit is a point, which I also pointed out, but it really does seem to me that by the definition of the tiers a Warlock jumps up to T2 at 12th level with the investment of a single Core feat.

Since the stated purpose of your Tier system is to warn DMs of the potential for game-breaking abusability, I was thinking maybe it's worth adding a footnote to the Warlock?

The Artificer's T1 comes from his ability to craft things, but the real breakability behind the things he can craft are the spells that power them.  Would an Artificer still be T1/T2 if all they got for free was Scribe Scroll?  I'd personally rule yes, despite the fact that nobody would probably want to play them at that point.  Given that, I'd personally also rule that Warlocks are also T2 after level 12.

It's not the kind of thing that most people are *going* to do with the class, but then (if my experience is anything to go by), the vast majority of barbar-players out there aren't going to go Lion Totem simply because they can't be arsed to read all the splat books and ACFs.  If we're talking about potential, I think that the Warlock's emulate-any-spell ability deserves a rather prominent footnote.

But I'm not going to be miffed if you disagree :-)

I did actually post this observation on the thread, since after reading through it I discovered that it was still active.  Maybe, if further discussion is warranted, we should move it there?

So, in response to this: if I were to do a specific Warlock entry to explain its position in the tiers, I would definitely put in a special note about their ability to produce any scroll of any spell they desire to make (with an extra bit about trapsmith spells, which are very important to note).  I don't think it's all that big of a deal, in part because the DM will see them crafting these scrolls in advance of the situation (so they'll know it's coming) but it's definitely worth mentioning.  Warlocks can absolutely hit T2 if allowed to play with their 12th level ability without restriction, so it's worth warning about.  I just never got around to actually going over every single class (the threads on why Tier X classes are in Tier X do a very nice job of talking about it, though).

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #502 on: January 15, 2011, 01:15:49 AM »
@ninjarabbit Okay, it somehow escaped my notice that shapechange is on the Druid list.  Yup, that pushes Spirit Shaman over the edge to T2, in my opinion.

@JaronK and Kuroimaken Thanks for the clarification :-)  It's a wonky kinda thing to categorize; I guess I'm just going to think of Warlocks as T4 sub-L12 and T2 afterwards.

Useful for future reference.  Of course, my current Warlock player thought it was a great idea to prestige out into Dragon Disciple...

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #503 on: January 15, 2011, 03:21:35 AM »
@ninjarabbit Okay, it somehow escaped my notice that shapechange is on the Druid list.  Yup, that pushes Spirit Shaman over the edge to T2, in my opinion.
I call the healer/truenamer precedence, to negate shape change.

Edit* Speaking of Healer would making it have useful in combat healing push it to tier 4? Say they got to add a d6 to all healing spells at every odd level. So cure critical would heal 4d8+4d6+7 at level 7. 40 damage is pretty comparable to an earth elemental attack. Add in spontaneous conversion of healing spells and a few healing spells to the list and it seems like it might make it to that range from my perspective.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 03:29:57 AM by lans »
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #504 on: January 15, 2011, 03:36:16 AM »
@ninjarabbit Okay, it somehow escaped my notice that shapechange is on the Druid list.  Yup, that pushes Spirit Shaman over the edge to T2, in my opinion.
I call the healer/truenamer precedence, to negate shape change.

Edit* Speaking of Healer would making it have useful in combat healing push it to tier 4? Say they got to add a d6 to all healing spells at every odd level. So cure critical would heal 4d8+4d6+7 at level 7. 40 damage is pretty comparable to an earth elemental attack. Add in spontaneous conversion of healing spells and a few healing spells to the list and it seems like it might make it to that range from my perspective.


It still lacks useful class features. Most of its abilities are an effective Pearl of Power for set spells, which is fairly useless (and the Unicorn mount comes out of nowhere there).

Edit: As for the Spirit Shaman, it was Tier 2 to begin with (yes, the Druid's spell list is less useful than normal lists, but it does have a wide array of useful spells in other supplements). The ability to change spells known every day is what keeps it out of Tier 3: You can delve for spells that are useful one day, then switch lists the next day. It also has access to SNA, and is the only class outside of the Druid itself that has those spells without wasting resources (the Cleric has to waste a domain, the Artificer has to use craft reserve, and the Archivist has to use spellbook pages).

Really, SNA itself is very powerful. If the Binder can be put into Tier 2 with that Summoning Vestige, then the Spirit Shaman deserves just as much leeway for having SNA without online sources.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 03:40:57 AM by Sinfire Titan »


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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #505 on: January 15, 2011, 06:26:26 AM »
I thought common wisdom pegged SNA as strictly inferior to Summon Monster past 3rd-level spells or so.  Also, Shapechange by itself isn't really enough to break the game by itself, really, especially since the SS gets it a level delayed and has so few 9th-level spells available at a given time.  What's more, even with all the splats available, there's very little in the Druid spell list that's really even approaching with a Wizard's GODly power.  No Calling spells, no game-altering spells like Contingency, limited teleportation ability...

Sure, once they get 9th-level spells they're pretty awesome.  When they're muddling around in the 5th-7th level spells range, pickings are very slim.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #506 on: January 15, 2011, 07:10:04 AM »
I thought common wisdom pegged SNA as strictly inferior to Summon Monster past 3rd-level spells or so.  Also, Shapechange by itself isn't really enough to break the game by itself, really, especially since the SS gets it a level delayed and has so few 9th-level spells available at a given time.  What's more, even with all the splats available, there's very little in the Druid spell list that's really even approaching with a Wizard's GODly power.  No Calling spells, no game-altering spells like Contingency, limited teleportation ability...

Sure, once they get 9th-level spells they're pretty awesome.  When they're muddling around in the 5th-7th level spells range, pickings are very slim.

Even with the Druid spell restriction, you've got to keep in mind that those spells are still worth more than, say, a Dread Necromancer's selection. Druids have several very potent BC spells, and they just get more in splat books. Transmute Rock to Lava, for example. If you can't think of a use for that, you aren't trying.

What the Druid lacks with Calling, Contingency, and teleportation, it makes up for with BC and buffs (and you can take Wild Cohort to solve that whole target problem with some Druid buffs).

SNA also has the most access to Huge-sized creatures. SM may have the SLAs, but SNA is good for combat.


And Greenbound/Ashbound. Can't argue with Greenbound Summons.


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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #507 on: January 15, 2011, 09:16:43 AM »
What I'm curious about:

Quote
First off, remember that Warlocks don't get that creation ability until level 12.  The majority of games are actually played below level 10 (according to various surveys I've seen online) which means that most Warlock players will never even get Imbue Item, so it's weighted a bit less for that reason.

JaronK, if this is weighted, then what does the paladin do in tier 5? Because of course, at the high levels it won't be able to compete with high level spells, but especially at lower and mid levels (definitivly up to lvl 12) it is perfectly capable of fulfilling several roles (face, damage dealer, tank, healer, buffs, debuffs & utility), also several within 1 build. I think this http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10057.0 shows several builds that are capable of that, also with moderate optimization. If it's easier, I can post in the 'why tier 5 are in tier 5' thread a more extensive argument. 

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #508 on: January 15, 2011, 09:33:23 AM »
What I'm curious about:

Quote
First off, remember that Warlocks don't get that creation ability until level 12.  The majority of games are actually played below level 10 (according to various surveys I've seen online) which means that most Warlock players will never even get Imbue Item, so it's weighted a bit less for that reason.

JaronK, if this is weighted, then what does the paladin do in tier 5? Because of course, at the high levels it won't be able to compete with high level spells, but especially at lower and mid levels (definitivly up to lvl 12) it is perfectly capable of fulfilling several roles (face, damage dealer, tank, healer, buffs, debuffs & utility), also several within 1 build. I think this http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10057.0 shows several builds that are capable of that, also with moderate optimization. If it's easier, I can post in the 'why tier 5 are in tier 5' thread a more extensive argument. 


Note that "weighted a bit less" isn't the same as not weighted... it's a factor that's considered, but generally speaking I consider 6-15 to be the most important levels to look at (1-5 is most played but the balance differences are also less noticeable in general, while 16+ seems very rarely played).  The lower levels of that (6-10) are weighted highest... but I find Paladins have a lot of trouble even relatively early on.  They're not great as healers, as their in combat heals are too little to matter and deny them actions, while their out of combat healing is inefficient (especially compared to folks like Binders, Crusaders, Dread Necromancers, etc).  MAD is a serious problem for them as well, which reduces their ability to be a face (they need lots of different stats which tends to leave only Dex and Int dumpable... denying them the skill points they'd generally want.  Diplomacy is nice but it's likely all they get).  As a tank, again that MAD issue makes them worse at this than other high HD heavy armor classes.  And there's no way they're going to be able to buff, debuff, and heal on the same character with their limited spell selection, especially in the lower levels, at least not without being very weak in those roles.

In the end, it's hard not to compare the Paladin to the Crusader and see a dramatic difference.  Remember that being one Tier apart means the two should still be able to play together well without one completely overwhelming the other.  The Crusader, however, will usually make the Pally look pretty silly.  Obviously optimization can change this (Battle Blessing is pretty freaking sweet, and Serenity helps a lot) but optimization can pump up the Crusader nicely too.  And putting a Crusader in a party with a Paladin is much like having an Unarmed Swordsage with a Monk.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #509 on: January 15, 2011, 09:53:58 AM »
What I'm curious about:

Quote
First off, remember that Warlocks don't get that creation ability until level 12.  The majority of games are actually played below level 10 (according to various surveys I've seen online) which means that most Warlock players will never even get Imbue Item, so it's weighted a bit less for that reason.

JaronK, if this is weighted, then what does the paladin do in tier 5? Because of course, at the high levels it won't be able to compete with high level spells, but especially at lower and mid levels (definitivly up to lvl 12) it is perfectly capable of fulfilling several roles (face, damage dealer, tank, healer, buffs, debuffs & utility), also several within 1 build. I think this http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10057.0 shows several builds that are capable of that, also with moderate optimization. If it's easier, I can post in the 'why tier 5 are in tier 5' thread a more extensive argument. 


Note that "weighted a bit less" isn't the same as not weighted... it's a factor that's considered, but generally speaking I consider 6-15 to be the most important levels to look at (1-5 is most played but the balance differences are also less noticeable in general, while 16+ seems very rarely played).  The lower levels of that (6-10) are weighted highest... but I find Paladins have a lot of trouble even relatively early on.  They're not great as healers, as their in combat heals are too little to matter and deny them actions, while their out of combat healing is inefficient (especially compared to folks like Binders, Crusaders, Dread Necromancers, etc).  MAD is a serious problem for them as well, which reduces their ability to be a face (they need lots of different stats which tends to leave only Dex and Int dumpable... denying them the skill points they'd generally want.  Diplomacy is nice but it's likely all they get).  As a tank, again that MAD issue makes them worse at this than other high HD heavy armor classes.  And there's no way they're going to be able to buff, debuff, and heal on the same character with their limited spell selection, especially in the lower levels, at least not without being very weak in those roles.

In the end, it's hard not to compare the Paladin to the Crusader and see a dramatic difference.  Remember that being one Tier apart means the two should still be able to play together well without one completely overwhelming the other.  The Crusader, however, will usually make the Pally look pretty silly.  Obviously optimization can change this (Battle Blessing is pretty freaking sweet, and Serenity helps a lot) but optimization can pump up the Crusader nicely too.  And putting a Crusader in a party with a Paladin is much like having an Unarmed Swordsage with a Monk.

JaronK

But from level 5/6 is where the paladin starts getting crazy multipliers on charge attacks, as well as either the horsy or the charging smite acf. I don't agree with you that crusader and paladin differ that much, against evil opponents the paladin easily outdamages the crusader, even when the latter uses that crazy 8d8 lvl 4 maneuver. Also, I when you compare paladin to monk... they are really in a different level. Monk can do 1 thing and do it badly (combat), paladin can do combat quite good, and as well a bit of other stuff mentioned above. On 'face' role: they have access to diplomacy, gather information, sense motive, as well as some usefull spells annd detect evil. Simply making a paladin that isn't mounted or with a little higher ability score in int., you can make a very good face, especially for a cha based class.

But I'll post later today something in the tier 5 thread.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #510 on: January 15, 2011, 10:44:46 AM »
What I'm curious about:

Quote
First off, remember that Warlocks don't get that creation ability until level 12.  The majority of games are actually played below level 10 (according to various surveys I've seen online) which means that most Warlock players will never even get Imbue Item, so it's weighted a bit less for that reason.

JaronK, if this is weighted, then what does the paladin do in tier 5? Because of course, at the high levels it won't be able to compete with high level spells, but especially at lower and mid levels (definitivly up to lvl 12) it is perfectly capable of fulfilling several roles (face, damage dealer, tank, healer, buffs, debuffs & utility), also several within 1 build. I think this http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10057.0 shows several builds that are capable of that, also with moderate optimization. If it's easier, I can post in the 'why tier 5 are in tier 5' thread a more extensive argument. 


Note that "weighted a bit less" isn't the same as not weighted... it's a factor that's considered, but generally speaking I consider 6-15 to be the most important levels to look at (1-5 is most played but the balance differences are also less noticeable in general, while 16+ seems very rarely played).  The lower levels of that (6-10) are weighted highest... but I find Paladins have a lot of trouble even relatively early on.  They're not great as healers, as their in combat heals are too little to matter and deny them actions, while their out of combat healing is inefficient (especially compared to folks like Binders, Crusaders, Dread Necromancers, etc).  MAD is a serious problem for them as well, which reduces their ability to be a face (they need lots of different stats which tends to leave only Dex and Int dumpable... denying them the skill points they'd generally want.  Diplomacy is nice but it's likely all they get).  As a tank, again that MAD issue makes them worse at this than other high HD heavy armor classes.  And there's no way they're going to be able to buff, debuff, and heal on the same character with their limited spell selection, especially in the lower levels, at least not without being very weak in those roles.

In the end, it's hard not to compare the Paladin to the Crusader and see a dramatic difference.  Remember that being one Tier apart means the two should still be able to play together well without one completely overwhelming the other.  The Crusader, however, will usually make the Pally look pretty silly.  Obviously optimization can change this (Battle Blessing is pretty freaking sweet, and Serenity helps a lot) but optimization can pump up the Crusader nicely too.  And putting a Crusader in a party with a Paladin is much like having an Unarmed Swordsage with a Monk.

JaronK

But from level 5/6 is where the paladin starts getting crazy multipliers on charge attacks, as well as either the horsy or the charging smite acf. I don't agree with you that crusader and paladin differ that much, against evil opponents the paladin easily outdamages the crusader, even when the latter uses that crazy 8d8 lvl 4 maneuver. Also, I when you compare paladin to monk... they are really in a different level. Monk can do 1 thing and do it badly (combat), paladin can do combat quite good, and as well a bit of other stuff mentioned above. On 'face' role: they have access to diplomacy, gather information, sense motive, as well as some usefull spells annd detect evil. Simply making a paladin that isn't mounted or with a little higher ability score in int., you can make a very good face, especially for a cha based class.

But I'll post later today something in the tier 5 thread.

There's no denying the sheer damage output of the Core combat whores. The math's been done; on a round-per-round basis, an optimized Monk, Barbarian, Fighter, Rogue, and Paladin can all outdamage the Crusader, Warblade, and Swordsage. While the latter three can access similar tricks, the former has more support in splats, and inevitably the sheer numbers add up.

The reason they still rank so low is that's (usually) all they are good at: Dealing damage. The Bo9S 3 are capable of doing things that make the whores cry (Teleportation at will, constant fly speed, jumping Xty feet as a swift action, giving other characters extra turns, etc).

The Paladin's spells don't kick in until post-4th level (and at that point the spells he does get are fairly worthless). Meanwhile, the Crusader's been digging entire mines with the Mountain Hammer, healing like he was a Wand of Lesser Vigor, and taking it like a man. I won't deny that the Paladin can do some serious damage compared to the Crusader, but that's because maneuvers get out-tempoed very early on.


But that isn't what the Tiers system is based on. The Paladin has ONE option during combat (Mount up and Charge), while the Crusader has several different actions to work with (White Raven is nuts). The Paladin's healing abilities do not compare to a Crusader's. And never mind Turn Undead (seriously, it rarely works unless the DM sends a horde).


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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #511 on: January 15, 2011, 11:06:58 AM »
SiFir hit all the salient points.  Except outliers like Battle Blessing, the Paladin spell list is pretty much junk compared to what other casters are pumping out at comparable ECL, and "I hit it with my Valorous Lance" as your only combat option worth mentioning gets dull as dirt for many of us pretty damned quickly.  Crusaders have so much more to do, and do well.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #512 on: January 15, 2011, 06:47:42 PM »
Plus very little stops a Crusader from doing the same Valorous Lance stuff... or a Warrior from doing the same, for that matter.  The last Crusader I made used a Valorous Spiked Shield to double tap people with Improved Trip/Shield Slam/Shield Charge on the charge along with his Lion Totem dip gained pounce (note: Paladins have a MUCH tougher time getting pounce, unless they're Paladins of Freedom, for obvious reasons) and Shock Trooper.  He was no slouch in damage.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #513 on: January 15, 2011, 06:56:29 PM »
While I understand that Paladin is surely lower than tier 3,I wouldn't put him on tier 5......
The thing is that he has enough options(mount,spellcasting,turn undead and the options that come from it) to make him a tier 4.........

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #514 on: January 15, 2011, 07:10:37 PM »
While I understand that Paladin is surely lower than tier 3,I wouldn't put him on tier 5......
The thing is that he has enough options(mount,spellcasting,turn undead and the options that come from it) to make him a tier 4.........


He also has crippling MAD.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #515 on: January 15, 2011, 07:16:40 PM »
The problem is that the paladin isn't a good class out of the box. Yeah with enough ACFs and class-specific feats the paladin can have a higher ceiling but that requires a high optimization skill and a good number of splatbooks.

By comparion out of the box the hexblade (a tier 4 class) has less MAD (not needing Wis), a much better spell list (including gems like polymorph, alter self, glitterdust, charm person, etc), a better set of class skills (and usually having better Int due to less MAD), and extra feats while having the same BAB and d10 hit dice and having class features that are fairly close in power.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #516 on: January 15, 2011, 07:36:15 PM »
Posted my lengthier argument in the appropriate 'why tier 5s are in tier 5' thread. Sorry, missed the last 4 posts because I was typing, but its long enough to have most things covered anyway  :D

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #517 on: January 16, 2011, 01:45:01 AM »
@ninjarabbit Okay, it somehow escaped my notice that shapechange is on the Druid list.  Yup, that pushes Spirit Shaman over the edge to T2, in my opinion.
I call the healer/truenamer precedence, to negate shape change.

Edit* Speaking of Healer would making it have useful in combat healing push it to tier 4? Say they got to add a d6 to all healing spells at every odd level. So cure critical would heal 4d8+4d6+7 at level 7. 40 damage is pretty comparable to an earth elemental attack. Add in spontaneous conversion of healing spells and a few healing spells to the list and it seems like it might make it to that range from my perspective.


It still lacks useful class features. Most of its abilities are an effective Pearl of Power for set spells, which is fairly useless (and the Unicorn mount comes out of nowhere there).

Useful incombat healing is a useful class feature.
Plus the spontaneous healing would free up slots for talking to animals.



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Really, SNA itself is very powerful. If the Binder can be put into Tier 2 with that Summoning Vestige, then the Spirit Shaman deserves just as much leeway for having SNA without online sources.
The binder isn't really tier 2 for the ability to use SM, its T2 for the ability to send monster after monster after monster after monster after monster after monster at the problem.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #518 on: January 16, 2011, 01:48:45 AM »
Not only is SM better than SNA, the thing about Binders is they can spam it once every 5 (or 4 with the right feat) rounds, thus keeping up three or more critters at all times.  That means full access to all those spell like abilities (which SNA rarely gives) and you have them as much as you want.  Also, you get any item crafting feat you'd ever want, which is quite handy as well.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #519 on: January 18, 2011, 03:47:38 PM »
What would be the tier on the Death Master(Dragon Compendium)?