Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 450304 times)

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Tyal-Kelvar

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #480 on: January 11, 2011, 11:39:16 PM »
What I would do is add or subtract from ECL according to Tier. Tier 1 and 2 get +2, and +1, respectively, Tier 3 is normal, Tier 4 is -1 and so on. Doesn't quite work at lower levels, because there is no ECL -2 for the commoner :).

Brilliant idea.  Stuck forever behind by 2 (Or more, if you compare to the party fighter) would certainly weaken them down without invalidating builds.  Still, it then comes down to whether it's enough.  A well played level 16 wizard compared to a level 20 fighter, I'd still say the wizard is vastly more useful, but I guess it becomes more in a generalist way than broken way.  That is assuming I understand you suggestion (wizard 16= ECL 18, fighter 20=ECL 18).  Perhaps a tier 1=+3, tier 2=+1, tier 3=0, tier 4=+1, tier 5=+3, tier 6=still don't play, would work better?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #481 on: January 11, 2011, 11:41:38 PM »
What I would do is add or subtract from ECL according to Tier. Tier 1 and 2 get +2, and +1, respectively, Tier 3 is normal, Tier 4 is -1 and so on. Doesn't quite work at lower levels, because there is no ECL -2 for the commoner :).

Brilliant idea.  Stuck forever behind by 2 (Or more, if you compare to the party fighter) would certainly weaken them down without invalidating builds.  Still, it then comes down to whether it's enough.  A well played level 16 wizard compared to a level 20 fighter, I'd still say the wizard is vastly more useful, but I guess it becomes more in a generalist way than broken way.  That is assuming I understand you suggestion (wizard 16= ECL 18, fighter 20=ECL 18).  Perhaps a tier 1=+3, tier 2=+1, tier 3=0, tier 4=+1, tier 5=+3, tier 6=still don't play, would work better?
A well-played wizard 10 could likely (and fairly easily) flatten a fighter 20, though it depends in part on the fighter's gear.
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Tyal-Kelvar

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #482 on: January 12, 2011, 12:56:33 AM »
What I would do is add or subtract from ECL according to Tier. Tier 1 and 2 get +2, and +1, respectively, Tier 3 is normal, Tier 4 is -1 and so on. Doesn't quite work at lower levels, because there is no ECL -2 for the commoner :).

Brilliant idea.  Stuck forever behind by 2 (Or more, if you compare to the party fighter) would certainly weaken them down without invalidating builds.  Still, it then comes down to whether it's enough.  A well played level 16 wizard compared to a level 20 fighter, I'd still say the wizard is vastly more useful, but I guess it becomes more in a generalist way than broken way.  That is assuming I understand you suggestion (wizard 16= ECL 18, fighter 20=ECL 18).  Perhaps a tier 1=+3, tier 2=+1, tier 3=0, tier 4=+1, tier 5=+3, tier 6=still don't play, would work better?
A well-played wizard 10 could likely (and fairly easily) flatten a fighter 20, though it depends in part on the fighter's gear.

I don't feel the PvP aspect is so much the point as making all party members useful.  Still, if one says a wizard of half the level of the fighter is balanced, then hard to do it with a straight adjustment to ELC.  Perhaps: tier 1 level=2/3 ECL, tier 2 lvl=5/6 ECL, tier 3 lvl=ECL, tier 4 lvl=7/6 ECL, tier 5 lvl=4/3 ECL, tier 6 lvl=2 times ECL.  That might work for balancing, fighters leveling up twice as fast as wizards.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #483 on: January 12, 2011, 01:48:43 AM »
You should let the commoner get double levels.

HA !!

So now the Commoner would be a Skill Monkey (with all those nifty ranks and stuff).

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #484 on: January 12, 2011, 02:59:15 AM »
You should let the commoner get double levels.

HA !!

So now the Commoner would be a Skill Monkey (with all those nifty ranks and stuff).
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #485 on: January 12, 2011, 03:24:53 AM »

How do we calculate multiclass and hybrid PrCs?
Per level usually works. However, the mundane dipper then gets pretty strong pretty quickly, offensively that is, usually. Also, as soon as you have level differences, the XP gains for lower ECL could well advantage the wizard again, and kill all the penalty.
What if you didn't give extra XP to those behind the level curve due to their Tier? That would keep the Tier 1s from ever completely catching up, unless all the low Tier folks just stopped showing up for weeks.
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Daniel678

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #486 on: January 12, 2011, 07:55:46 AM »
I seem to remember a commoner build that gained spellcasting through feats. Could a commoner with 2x class levels use that build to get better spellcasting than a wizard? (or at least hit epic spellcasting when the wizard is lvl 11?)

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #487 on: January 12, 2011, 08:03:05 AM »
I seem to remember a commoner build that gained spellcasting through feats. Could a commoner with 2x class levels use that build to get better spellcasting than a wizard? (or at least hit epic spellcasting when the wizard is lvl 11?)

Off the top of my head

Magical training (0th level)
+heighten spell + versatile spellcaster + earth spell (2nd level)
+eldritch corruption (4th level)
+ sanctum spell (5th level)
+god touched + divine channeler + extra turning +Naenhoon illumian sigil (9th level)

That's a total of nine feats.  You could trim the feat requirements down drastically by focusing on the illumian sigil and spamming extra turning.  That also allows you to take Blessed by Tem-Et-Nu, which is the best commoner feat in existence.
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #488 on: January 12, 2011, 04:45:16 PM »
Less cheesy is the heritage feats.
1st level Fey heritage
2nd Fiendish
3rd Fey feat that gave 3 spells
5 better version
6 grab the fiendish version

Sorry that I don't recall the names
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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #489 on: January 12, 2011, 06:04:41 PM »
Can't you only have one set of Heritage feats at once?
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #490 on: January 12, 2011, 08:03:33 PM »
I think it was inconsistent on that front.
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Luckanan

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Wilder?
« Reply #491 on: January 14, 2011, 03:23:32 PM »
Appologies if this has already been discussed, but what Tier would the Wilder be in?

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Re: Wilder?
« Reply #492 on: January 14, 2011, 03:29:24 PM »
Appologies if this has already been discussed, but what Tier would the Wilder be in?
I'd say 3 to 4

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #493 on: January 14, 2011, 03:49:04 PM »
Can't you only have one set of Heritage feats at once?

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Gods_Trick

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #494 on: January 14, 2011, 05:16:09 PM »
Can't you only have one set of Heritage feats at once?

Not if you don't mind the fact that your character's female side of the family tree is made of whores.

Which isn't too far for most characters  :smirk

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #495 on: January 14, 2011, 11:46:11 PM »
Wilder -> T3 at worst

Can't you only have one set of Heritage feats at once?

Not if you don't mind the fact that your character's female side of the family tree is made of whores.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #496 on: January 15, 2011, 12:46:47 AM »
I have a couple observations.  (I'm new to this board and to forums in general, so deepest apologies if I commit some kind of breach of etiquette.)

1) Spirit Shaman -- It seems to me that Druid's game-breaking potential comes from wild shaping into absurd things and then buffing itself and its Animal Companion, plus using creative wild shapes to solve other potential problems.  The extra versatility of its spells is just sauce for the goods.  If you take away Wild Shape and Animal Companion, is it possible to break the game on its spells alone?  I'm not sure that it is, therefore Spirit Shaman ought to be T3 (High versatility, low abusability).  (If it is possible to break the game on a druid's spells alone, I'm all ears as to how ;))

2) Warlock -- nobody seems to disagree that it's T4.  Yet, like an Artificer, it can fake any spell for purposes of making magical items with a UMD check.  A UMD check of 24 gives it the ability to fake 9th-level spells, and RAW doesn't provide any limit on how early it can do this (that I can see, bearing in mind that it doesn't get the ability to do this at all until Level 12).  Now, it clearly isn't anything like an Artificer, but the potential for some limited game-breaking abuse is basically right in the open.  So why would it not be T2?

Just looking for insight.  :)

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #497 on: January 15, 2011, 12:56:20 AM »
I have a couple observations.  (I'm new to this board and to forums in general, so deepest apologies if I commit some kind of breach of etiquette.)

1) Spirit Shaman -- It seems to me that Druid's game-breaking potential comes from wild shaping into absurd things and then buffing itself and its Animal Companion, plus using creative wild shapes to solve other potential problems.  The extra versatility of its spells is just sauce for the goods.  If you take away Wild Shape and Animal Companion, is it possible to break the game on its spells alone?  I'm not sure that it is, therefore Spirit Shaman ought to be T3 (High versatility, low abusability).  (If it is possible to break the game on a druid's spells alone, I'm all ears as to how ;))

2) Warlock -- nobody seems to disagree that it's T4.  Yet, like an Artificer, it can fake any spell for purposes of making magical items with a UMD check.  A UMD check of 24 gives it the ability to fake 9th-level spells, and RAW doesn't provide any limit on how early it can do this (that I can see, bearing in mind that it doesn't get the ability to do this at all until Level 12).  Now, it clearly isn't anything like an Artificer, but the potential for some limited game-breaking abuse is basically right in the open.  So why would it not be T2?

Just looking for insight.  :)

About spirit shaman,I always thought   that he is exactly between tier 3 and 2........

Either a High tier 3 or a low tier 2.....
While the Druid's spell list is not as good as the cleric's or the wizard's it still provides many options......

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #498 on: January 15, 2011, 02:35:32 AM »
I have a couple observations.  (I'm new to this board and to forums in general, so deepest apologies if I commit some kind of breach of etiquette.)

1) Spirit Shaman -- It seems to me that Druid's game-breaking potential comes from wild shaping into absurd things and then buffing itself and its Animal Companion, plus using creative wild shapes to solve other potential problems.  The extra versatility of its spells is just sauce for the goods.  If you take away Wild Shape and Animal Companion, is it possible to break the game on its spells alone?  I'm not sure that it is, therefore Spirit Shaman ought to be T3 (High versatility, low abusability).  (If it is possible to break the game on a druid's spells alone, I'm all ears as to how ;))

2) Warlock -- nobody seems to disagree that it's T4.  Yet, like an Artificer, it can fake any spell for purposes of making magical items with a UMD check.  A UMD check of 24 gives it the ability to fake 9th-level spells, and RAW doesn't provide any limit on how early it can do this (that I can see, bearing in mind that it doesn't get the ability to do this at all until Level 12).  Now, it clearly isn't anything like an Artificer, but the potential for some limited game-breaking abuse is basically right in the open.  So why would it not be T2?

Just looking for insight.  :)

The Warlock does not gain anywhere near the versatility of the artificer as far as using and abusing magic items goes. First of all, no let's-pump-this-wand-full-of-free-metamagic abuse. Second, the artificer gets a separate pool of XP just for crafting (and can suck XP out of items that are running out of juice). Third, he gets the crafting on the go (stick crafting homunculus into a portable hole).

I'm sure you get the idea. The Artificer is just NUTS. Crafting, while quite useful, isn't really a tie-upper on its own, specially when you still need to actually eat up the feats for it.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #499 on: January 15, 2011, 02:47:50 AM »
Druids get shapechange, that by itself is worth Tier 2.

The druid spell list excels in summoning, battlefield control, buffs, and has a decent amount of healing, utility, and blasting. The whole package is very much worth the tier 2.