Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 452770 times)

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #380 on: November 27, 2010, 02:42:06 PM »
It's as powerful as spells (since you can make a scroll of anything), but requires huge amounts of prep time (since you have to craft the stupid thing).  Plus some of the non combat items are off the charts as far as what they can do (craft a Candle of Invocation?  What about an Eternal Wand of anything particularly useful?). If it were your only powerful ability it wouldn't be enough (see Warlocks down in T4), but the ability to have any spell you want if you have suitable time to prepare is pretty ridiculous when combined with the Binder's ability to also have all the low level utility spells pretty much whenever (via the right Summons, at least if they're common enough spells).  But again, that's only going to work when you have prep time.  When you don't, it's not so great.  So, sometimes it's ridiculous, and sometimes not so much.

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In other words, it's more situationally powerful than anything else.
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InnaBinder

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #381 on: November 27, 2010, 03:50:49 PM »
It's as powerful as spells (since you can make a scroll of anything), but requires huge amounts of prep time (since you have to craft the stupid thing).  Plus some of the non combat items are off the charts as far as what they can do (craft a Candle of Invocation?  What about an Eternal Wand of anything particularly useful?). If it were your only powerful ability it wouldn't be enough (see Warlocks down in T4), but the ability to have any spell you want if you have suitable time to prepare is pretty ridiculous when combined with the Binder's ability to also have all the low level utility spells pretty much whenever (via the right Summons, at least if they're common enough spells).  But again, that's only going to work when you have prep time.  When you don't, it's not so great.  So, sometimes it's ridiculous, and sometimes not so much.

JaronK

In other words, it's more situationally powerful than anything else.
Emphasis on "more".  At the very least, you'll free up feat slots for the party Wizard or Cleric who would otherwise - assuming no Artificer in the party - be the one who likely has to suck it up and burn one or more feats to get the party properly equipped.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #382 on: November 28, 2010, 01:15:21 AM »
In other words, it's more situationally powerful than anything else.

Right.  But that could have a big effect on game balance, so it should be factored in.  Combine that with the crazy off the cuff "hey look I can summon a new lower level caster once every four or five rounds, unless ya'all wanted me summoning a unicorn or something" and you've got some serious potential going on there.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #383 on: November 28, 2010, 01:58:30 AM »
A question I have on the tier system in general: many tiers are defined by "being able to do one thing quite well", "being able to do things better then classes that specialize in the thing", etc.

Is there a definition of thing? How broad or narrow are they?

Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #384 on: November 28, 2010, 04:06:51 AM »
A question I have on the tier system in general: many tiers are defined by "being able to do one thing quite well", "being able to do things better then classes that specialize in the thing", etc.

Is there a definition of thing? How broad or narrow are they?
Typically, thing in this instance refers to a party role. This can be scouting, trapfinding, meleeing, utility (things such as fly/invisibility), buffing, ranged combat, and so on and forth. For example, the rogue gets a lot of skill points and sneak attack primarily, right? However, by and large the class doesn't gain any class features that would allow it to deliver sneak attacks more easily, isn't really great at what it does on the skill front (Factotums outshine the rogue in that department any time of the day), is largely useless against crit-immune foes, doesn't melee well (due to low HP, poor to-hit and light armor; also worthy of note is that you cannot flank a creature with ranged attacks, which negates a "safe" source of sneak attack, and thus being poor in melee really hurts), and is mostly useless if there's nothing requiring a skill check. Ergo, it's in a precarious spot tier-wise.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #385 on: November 28, 2010, 10:32:05 AM »
A question I have on the tier system in general: many tiers are defined by "being able to do one thing quite well", "being able to do things better then classes that specialize in the thing", etc.

Is there a definition of thing? How broad or narrow are they?

As Kuro says, it's a party role, for the most part.  For example, a Barbarian is easy to make really good at hitting stuff in combat really hard.  Killing stuff in melee, mostly.  That's his thing.  If your thing isn't very useful (for example, in combat healing, which is the Healer's specialty) you're lower... if it's generally useful (hitting stuff, handling the usual skillmonkey stuff) you're a bit higher.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #386 on: December 09, 2010, 07:38:28 AM »
Someone mind explaining a tad bit better as to what of those three situation that the Dread Necromancer can't do?

1. A DN and its minions can easily get through traps(minions being disposable) and kill a dragon.
2.DNs are armies in their own right past level 8
3.The social situations is where I see they would have problems with, but they're a CHA class with powerful fear abilities and bluff/intimidate. Intimidate is an awesome counterpart to diplomacy.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #387 on: December 09, 2010, 07:53:05 AM »
A friend asked why Fighter is lower than Ranger.  I suggested the answer is that the Ranger has a broader ability to solve problems while a Fighter just kills things.  A fighter might kill things better, but that's all they do.  The Ranger gets a companion, tracking, better skills, more skill points, etc.  Am I getting how the Tier system works?

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #388 on: December 09, 2010, 12:52:52 PM »
Someone mind explaining a tad bit better as to what of those three situation that the Dread Necromancer can't do?

1. A DN and its minions can easily get through traps(minions being disposable) and kill a dragon.
2.DNs are armies in their own right past level 8
3.The social situations is where I see they would have problems with, but they're a CHA class with powerful fear abilities and bluff/intimidate. Intimidate is an awesome counterpart to diplomacy.

The dragon thing is just one example.  But DNs have few social skills (Bluff on a CHA class is nice, and Intimidate has uses, but neither are good if you want to be long term allies with whoever you're dealing with).  Stealth is an issue, as they lack Move Silently and while they do have Hide, their minions are usually completely incapable of stealth (and the better minions are usually too big to just throw in a portable hole).  They're also very dependent on finding the right stuff to raise... if the DM isn't throwing hydras and giants at you, that can be an issue (I know it has been for me!).  Most undead you can make until you get Create Undead is just a speed bump anyway, with lots of HP but generally poor attack power.  There are exceptions... but only if the DM gives you the right stuff to fight.  Spend a while fighting humanoids or really anything with class levels and the zombies/skeletons you could create are just plain sub par. 

Now, you've still got a few solid spells to work with (Evard's Tentacles, for example, is quite nice).  But you generally don't have the really powerful ones (Planar Binding you have, but not Magic Circle or Dimensional Anchor, so it takes a lot of work to actually break that), nor have you got seriously potent undead unless the DM handed it to you. 

End result... you're solid in a lot of situations, with enough abilities that in most any situation you've got at least something useful.  But you're not really game breaking unless you really work for it.  And that's basically what Tier 3 is.  You can be useful in any situation, but you've got weaknesses too.  You're unlikely to just break the game, nor are you likely to be completely useless.

@Tenebrus:  Yeah, basically.  The Fighter is good at combat.  That's cool, but that's it (generally).  And at higher levels, they start to become quite poor even at that unless you optimize them quite significantly.  The Ranger, however, is going to be useful in more than just combat, and they can be quite good at combat too.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #389 on: December 09, 2010, 11:40:04 PM »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #391 on: December 10, 2010, 12:52:36 AM »
Just outta curiosity since even this repost is still getting bumped (and your still interested in it, ie posting) why didn't you include the extra base class categorizations I did? It would be nice to have all base classes listed after all...
[Spoiler]
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #392 on: December 10, 2010, 01:34:28 AM »
Ah, I just saw that OOTS!  I feel all special.  And Rich was one of the primary designers for one of my favorite classes too...

And yeah, I just forgot to update it.  One of those "man, I should get around to this" sorts of things.  But I get distracted easily.

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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #393 on: December 14, 2010, 12:46:58 AM »
Just outta curiosity since even this repost is still getting bumped (and your still interested in it, ie posting) why didn't you include the extra base class categorizations I did? It would be nice to have all base classes listed after all...
Is there a link to this?
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Littha

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #394 on: December 14, 2010, 01:05:10 AM »
Someone mind explaining a tad bit better as to what of those three situation that the Dread Necromancer can't do?

1. A DN and its minions can easily get through traps(minions being disposable) and kill a dragon.
2.DNs are armies in their own right past level 8
3.The social situations is where I see they would have problems with, but they're a CHA class with powerful fear abilities and bluff/intimidate. Intimidate is an awesome counterpart to diplomacy.
The dragon thing is just one example.  But DNs have few social skills (Bluff on a CHA class is nice, and Intimidate has uses, but neither are good if you want to be long term allies with whoever you're dealing with).  Stealth is an issue, as they lack Move Silently and while they do have Hide, their minions are usually completely incapable of stealth (and the better minions are usually too big to just throw in a portable hole).  

Shadows can be quite sneaky

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #395 on: December 14, 2010, 01:30:22 AM »
I think people are underestimating divine mind. If you compare it to a warrior or samurai it comes out quite a bit better. It has +1 to damage and a +2 on will saves compared to the samurai and another 1 hp compared to the warrior. It also gives a +1 to hit and damage to adjacent allies.


Go to level 20 and its +6 on will save, 5 on damage and AC and every other round it can get a different bonus when its not his turn. This is opposed by a fourth iterative attack, improved initiative and the samurais staredown and a class feature that is going to encourage a bad build. And quick draw, for when thats useful.

Not even going into the powers or domain powers on this.

Then depending on build it has other things that it might be able to do. Maybe a +1 deflection bonus to AC or the ability to split the damage with an attacker.

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Kuroimaken

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #396 on: December 14, 2010, 02:06:50 AM »
I think people are underestimating divine mind. If you compare it to a warrior or samurai it comes out quite a bit better. It has +1 to damage and a +2 on will saves compared to the samurai and another 1 hp compared to the warrior. It also gives a +1 to hit and damage to adjacent allies.


Go to level 20 and its +6 on will save, 5 on damage and AC and every other round it can get a different bonus when its not his turn. This is opposed by a fourth iterative attack, improved initiative and the samurais staredown and a class feature that is going to encourage a bad build. And quick draw, for when thats useful.

Not even going into the powers or domain powers on this.

Then depending on build it has other things that it might be able to do. Maybe a +1 deflection bonus to AC or the ability to split the damage with an attacker.



Let's be frank, at level 20, how significant ARE those bonuses, really?

+5 to damage? Throw in some multipliers, though as a baseline you want about twenty times as much. +5 to AC? AC stopped mattering ten levels ago, if not more. At that point, for the numbers to matter, they better be HIGH.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #397 on: December 14, 2010, 02:11:34 AM »
Shadows can be quite sneaky

Sadly, you can't create them until well past the time when they'd be useful to you (for the most part), so at that point you're relying on the DM just sending them to you gift wrapped.  That seems... unlikely, unless the DM doesn't realize what's obviously about to happen.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #398 on: December 14, 2010, 02:18:13 AM »
I think people are underestimating divine mind. If you compare it to a warrior or samurai it comes out quite a bit better. It has +1 to damage and a +2 on will saves compared to the samurai and another 1 hp compared to the warrior. It also gives a +1 to hit and damage to adjacent allies.


Go to level 20 and its +6 on will save, 5 on damage and AC and every other round it can get a different bonus when its not his turn. This is opposed by a fourth iterative attack, improved initiative and the samurais staredown and a class feature that is going to encourage a bad build. And quick draw, for when thats useful.

Not even going into the powers or domain powers on this.

Then depending on build it has other things that it might be able to do. Maybe a +1 deflection bonus to AC or the ability to split the damage with an attacker.

Those bonuses mean nothing. Their class features have no relevance, and their Manifester Level is too low to actually make their powers useful past 7th level.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #399 on: December 14, 2010, 02:34:10 AM »

Let's be frank, at level 20, how significant ARE those bonuses, really?

+5 to damage? Throw in some multipliers, though as a baseline you want about twenty times as much. +5 to AC? AC stopped mattering ten levels ago, if not more. At that point, for the numbers to matter, they better be HIGH.
It is also giving its allies +5 to hit, and AC means that the enemies would be hitting you 25% less if you are still are on the random scale. And at this level they actually have 3 auras so its +5 to initiative, spot and listen.

What would you rather have, the samurai who can make the person who isn't immune to fear frightened, or a +5 bonus to several abilities?

I'm sure many classes would love to have a +5 bonus to those stats. The +5 to hit and damage can turn into +15 damage with power attack, with 3 or 4 hits that adds up to quite a bit.

Those bonuses mean nothing. Their class features have no relevance, and their Manifester Level is too low to actually make their powers useful past 7th level.
The Divine Mind is not a half caster like the paladin or ranger. It is caster level-4 which means that it has the same caster level as a psion if it takes practiced manifester. Which means that it can do several things just as well as it.
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