Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 455002 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #280 on: July 22, 2010, 05:01:31 AM »
Ah, yeah, I didn't finish doing the top of tier, bottom of tier stuff.  It's possible Marshal should be red too.  Then again, they are awfully good at diplomancer abuse... but only as a two level dip.

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ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #281 on: July 22, 2010, 09:53:44 PM »
Hexblades and marshals fill two completely different roles: the hexblade being a martial debuffer and the marshall basically being a poor man's bard. You also have to take into account that the marshal's abilities peak much earlier than the hexblade's.

However I will say that it is much easier to screw up a hexblade build than a marshal build.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #282 on: July 22, 2010, 11:20:23 PM »
As per "uses" idea ...

Divine Mind has two uses.
(1) ... proving psionics is not broken to even the most dense
(2) ... proving psionic recharge is not broken ; if in a party of tier 1s it'll be pulling up the rear

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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #283 on: July 22, 2010, 11:29:35 PM »
Heh, everyone has a place, right?

Marshals are kind of hard to place.  They're kind of like Fighters... quite nice as a two level dip, but there's not a whole lot past that point.  So they're quite good as part of a larger build (though only to a degree, obviously... they're not power houses).  But a pure Marshal rapidly starts looking quite poor after only a few levels.  I'm thinking they deserve a red tag, or possibly a drop in level.  Thoughts?

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ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #284 on: July 23, 2010, 12:18:58 AM »
Double draconic aura makes going pure marshal juicy since major marshal auras count as draconic auras for this feat.

I think marshals are a solid 4 tier, no real need for the red tag. They get an excellent set of class skills and have a lot of potential for abuse. For example marshals get all knowledge skills as class skills, combine that with knowledge devotion and motivate intellegence for profit. There's a lot of directions a marshal can go both in-combat and out of combat and that flexibility makes them a step above the tier 5s.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #285 on: July 23, 2010, 01:15:45 AM »
Huh.  How did I miss that they get all knowledge skills?  I could see a lot of use in that.

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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #286 on: July 23, 2010, 01:41:30 AM »
Double draconic aura makes going pure marshal juicy since major marshal auras count as draconic auras for this feat.
No, they do not.  You can learn a draconic aura in place of a Major Aura, but Major Auras are NOT Draconic Auras.  You're better off taking the Draconic Aura feat twice and then grabbing Double Draconic Aura so you can have a minor, major, and two draconic auras up at once (hint: Senses is a good Draconic Aura choice)
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #287 on: July 23, 2010, 03:13:23 AM »
My bad but being able to have 4 active auras up at once is preety good.

Jopustopin

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #288 on: November 08, 2010, 12:38:46 AM »
Did we decide that Dragon Shamans were tier 4?

Mixster

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #289 on: November 08, 2010, 02:34:52 AM »
Quote
Tier 4: Capable of doing one thing quite well, but often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise, or capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competance without truly shining. Rarely has any abilities that can outright handle an encounter unless that encounter plays directly to the class's main strength. DMs may sometimes need to work to make sure Tier 4s can contribute to an encounter, as their abilities may sometimes leave them useless. Won't outshine anyone except Tier 6s except in specific circumstances that play to their strengths. Cannot compete effectively with Tier 1s that are played well.
That would definately fit this description quite well.

I've never really regarded Dragon Shaman as much though. It is mainly useful for an aura granting fast healing, that can be nicked with a feat. Much weaker than a bard IMO.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #290 on: November 08, 2010, 08:41:49 AM »
It is mainly useful for an aura granting fast healing, that can be nicked with a feat

Highly debateable (and I'm obviously on the "no" side), but I don't want to start that argument for the bajillionth time.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #291 on: November 08, 2010, 09:38:01 AM »
Either way, many classes can now fast heal all the way up to full, which IMO is a lot better by far (who'd want to enter a new fight at half HP?).  So I dunno, it's either 4 or 5.  But I've never played one.  4 is my guess.

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Mixster

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #292 on: November 08, 2010, 12:47:37 PM »
It is mainly useful for an aura granting fast healing, that can be nicked with a feat

Highly debateable (and I'm obviously on the "no" side), but I don't want to start that argument for the bajillionth time.

I agree, let's not start that discussion.
Assume it cannot be nicked with the feat, even then his abilities are sub-par to a decently optimized bard. Healing the entire party can be done with cheap items/tricks anyway.
There are also a limited amount of options when playing a dragon shaman, dipping one level for an aura is probably pretty decent. But if you want to primarily play a Dragon Shaman, your multi-class options are very few and far between, and retricts themselves to dipping.
Also the other auras than healing grant +1 or 2 to some rolls, or a lousy energy resistance to one type of energy, everything something that is fairly useful in low level games, but at higher levels it is meaningless.
The class makes for a good Con Focused High AC Survival build, but a Crusader does that better while still being a threat.
My verdict is probably Low Tier 4 with unique auras, and High Tier 5 with non-unique auras.
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #293 on: November 08, 2010, 05:12:09 PM »
If you take metabreath feats, you can make the Dragon Shaman a pretty decent controller.  Dragonfire Adepts can't take them.

Senses and Vigor are definitely the two best auras, but the former can definitely be grabbed with a feat (I'm of the opinion the second can too, but oh well).  A 1 level dip will net you 3 Auras with the most worthless definitely being Toughness (the DR isn't big enough when DR/Magic is actually useful and completely useless later).
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #294 on: November 08, 2010, 08:08:55 PM »
I'm more lenient towards sketchy rules interpretations when they don't break the game.  Picking up the vigor aura for the price of a feat is anything but a no-brainer, so I figure whatever, right?

It's a decent class to support a bunch of lower level characters, but that doesn't happen too often in parties.
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Mixster

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #295 on: November 08, 2010, 10:51:49 PM »
If you take metabreath feats, you can make the Dragon Shaman a pretty decent controller.  Dragonfire Adepts can't take them.

What is stopping Dragonfire Adepts from taking metabreath feats?
Monks are pretty much the best designed class ever.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #296 on: November 08, 2010, 10:53:14 PM »
If you take metabreath feats, you can make the Dragon Shaman a pretty decent controller.  Dragonfire Adepts can't take them.

What is stopping Dragonfire Adepts from taking metabreath feats?
No recharge time on their BW. They can do it if they are also dragonborn and choose the BW for that.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #297 on: November 08, 2010, 11:10:18 PM »
Indeed, but I think the Rules Compendium implies (or Draconomicon) that then both of your breath weapons use the slower recharge time.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #298 on: November 08, 2010, 11:18:05 PM »
If you take metabreath feats, you can make the Dragon Shaman a pretty decent controller.  Dragonfire Adepts can't take them.

What is stopping Dragonfire Adepts from taking metabreath feats?
No recharge time on their BW. They can do it if they are also dragonborn and choose the BW for that.
Honestly, the best "meta-breath" feat, isn't.  Entangling Exhalation from RoD is a no-brainer.  One instance of Recover Breath is useful if you have a cooldown (such as if you're a Dragon Shaman), and maybe one other metabreath like Maximize Breath is useful for cleaning up at the end of an encounter, but that's really optional.

Mixing in a little Barbarian and going for something of a menacer/beatstick is also an option.  Tangle them up with your breath weapon and them pounce them down one-by-one.  Taking an instance of Extra Rage will be useful here.

Dragon Shaman also benefits greatly from Stigmata.  You can heal the ability damage you take and wind up amplifying your healing potential in terms of raw HP.  Highly underrated benefit if Magic Mart isn't in full swing and you can't pick up wands of CLW at will.

I'd say that the Dragon Shaman is a little less versatile than the Warlock, but really not any less powerful.  Tier 4 is a good fit.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #299 on: November 09, 2010, 01:16:27 AM »
High tier 5/low tier 4 for the dragon shaman, leaning towards tier 5.

It's ultimately a 5th wheel class, it doesn't fill any one role that well. It's most useful in larger parties that have the other roles already filled. Ultimately the marshall and dragonfire adept are better than what the dragon shaman does.