Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 466236 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #260 on: June 30, 2010, 07:34:58 AM »
The problem there is that everyone has different ideas of what "satisfying play" is.  There are many campaigns where you can't possibly mess up a Fighter... the level of play they like is so low powered that simply having full BAB and a melee weapon is sufficient to be satisfying, and even the feats don't matter.  There are others where lacking power spells as a Wizard makes you a chump.  It's just hard to define.

JaronK

wotmaniac

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #261 on: June 30, 2010, 07:46:49 AM »
Most classes tend to optimize to relatively similar levels, so it didn't seem necessary.  The Barbarian does it a bit better than the Fighter (why hello thar, Lion Totem.  I think I'd like to charge now...), which is factored in.  Obviously some classes move more than others... Fighters do move quite a lot, while Warblades are pretty stable.  Some classes I just couldn't rank due to optimization results (the Truenamer being the obvious one).

JaronK
Ah, okay.
It's just that I have noticed that every time somebody has been like "well, if you do *this* with *that*, ...", they were called-down for going beyond the scope of the tier system.

 :shrug

Maybe do like a separate thread that looks at various optimization levels of each class -- e.g., a straight barbarian is tier 5, but with Lion Totem, it's tier whatever, and with *this* option/combo/etc it's tier whatever else.
Though, on second thought, that just might be a little too complicated and convoluted.

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If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #262 on: June 30, 2010, 07:50:52 AM »
The problem there is that everyone has different ideas of what "satisfying play" is.  There are many campaigns where you can't possibly mess up a Fighter... the level of play they like is so low powered that simply having full BAB and a melee weapon is sufficient to be satisfying, and even the feats don't matter.  There are others where lacking power spells as a Wizard makes you a chump.  It's just hard to define.

JaronK
Oh, but that's the key: Satisfying play is TOTALLY party dependant. But the common denominator is still the ease of getting there. IMHO a fighter with crap feats will still MOSTLY look worse than the Barb with crap feats, because the barb gets a class feature that actually makes him good at his job, while the fighter does not. So the barb gets there easier any day.

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #263 on: June 30, 2010, 01:35:59 PM »
So, I'm thinking that a commoner might be able to be brought up to tier 3 with an absurd amount of optimization, but I don't think any amount of optimization will bring a warlock up to tier 2.

Off hand, feats like Wild Cohort, and the Heritage feats, and the use of Tangle foot bags and marbles
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Bastian

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #264 on: June 30, 2010, 01:39:48 PM »
So, I'm thinking that a commoner might be able to be brought up to tier 3 with an absurd amount of optimization, but I don't think any amount of optimization will bring a warlock up to tier 2.

Off hand, feats like Wild Cohort, and the Heritage feats, and the use of Tangle foot bags and marbles
"Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu!" And then you're tier one. :) Any class can get as high as they want with enough optimizing.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #265 on: June 30, 2010, 01:40:13 PM »
Right, but a Fighter with crap feats will look better than a Druid who uses his animal companion for scouting and his Wild Shape for disguising himself and travel while using his spells for healing.  I dunno, it's hard to do.

@wotc:  Usually that "called-down" effect is when someone applies a level of optimization to a class without applying the same level to other classes they're comparing to.  For example, saying the Beguiler is clearly more powerful than a Sorcerer because he could take Arcane Disciple to get extra spells known, without considering the myriad ways that a Sorcerer could get still more spells known with similar cost from similar books (such as spending a feat on Arcane Preparation and then taking a few levels in Mage of the Arcane Order).  

But yeah, it gets far too complex to say "this combo is Tier X, this combo is Tier Y" especially when all classes have a variety of combos.  Better to say "Barbarians are generally stronger than Fighters.  Archivists are in the same general area as Wizards."

@Ians:  A Warlock specializing in creating magic items could hit Tier 2 if they make really powerful ones (Candles of Invocation, those exp storing items that I'm blanking on the name of, scrolls of Planar Binding).  That took two feats (Scribe Scroll and Craft Wonderous Item).  Slow, but it would do it.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #266 on: June 30, 2010, 07:31:44 PM »
got it.

ah-ha -- how about a guide for tiered games?  Basically, how to make the various classes appropriate for play at a particular tier.

I could be just grasping at straws ... :shrug

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #267 on: June 30, 2010, 10:09:28 PM »


@Ians:  A Warlock specializing in creating magic items could hit Tier 2 if they make really powerful ones (Candles of Invocation, those exp storing items that I'm blanking on the name of, scrolls of Planar Binding).  That took two feats (Scribe Scroll and Craft Wonderous Item).  Slow, but it would do it.

JaronK
Its Lans with an L
I forgot about their crafting abilities. Use Warblade in the example then, I don't think they got anything broken.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #268 on: July 01, 2010, 07:18:35 PM »
[post about maps and roads]
What about campaigns that don't have roads?
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That was kind of the point. I was trying to be a Roy parody, but I guess it didn't come across overly well.

==

JaronK is of course most famous for his massive thought experiments into placing classes into tiers. While a kind of nifty idea, and a decent enough way to think about stuff, his particular tier assignments were basically insane. Apparently the criteria he used was to assign classes relative strength based on what bullshit he personally would let them get away with at 20th level.

So Factotums were rated very highly, because apparently he would let them use Rokugan-exclusive skills with Forgotten Realms-exclusive weapons from the back of MM2 templated warbeasts. But Rogues suck donkey dick, becuase he wouldn't let them use Use Magic Device to read scrolls of Planar Binding. It was a very surreal argument.
~

And to think the system was immortalized in OOTS. As a general rule, I try to avoid all tier discussion there because it's the De Facto system at BG, and I'm not going to change anyone's mind.

Besides, I think if most people are pressed, they will admit that it's just an estimate, anyway, and that results can vary from table to table.
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My only real complaint with the tier system is that at one point I was tired (tiered?) of hearing about it.[/spoiler]

wotmaniac

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #269 on: July 01, 2010, 07:26:06 PM »
[post about maps and roads]
What about campaigns that don't have roads?
Say :fu to the DM, an make your own roads.   :D

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #270 on: July 01, 2010, 09:14:10 PM »
[post about maps and roads]
What about campaigns that don't have roads?
Roads?

Where we're going we won't need roads.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #271 on: July 01, 2010, 09:21:59 PM »
[post about maps and roads]
What about campaigns that don't have roads?
Roads?

Where we're going we won't need roads.
:lmao :clap
I knew something was tickling the back of my mind, but I just couldn't put my finger on it -- thanks.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #272 on: July 02, 2010, 01:42:45 AM »
So, I'm thinking that a commoner might be able to be brought up to tier 3 with an absurd amount of optimization, but I don't think any amount of optimization will bring a warlock up to tier 2.

Off hand, feats like Wild Cohort, and the Heritage feats, and the use of Tangle foot bags and marbles
"Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu!" And then you're tier one. :) Any class can get as high as they want with enough optimizing.
I'm not counting broken items unless said class can make said broken items. I'm assuming Pazuzu is shorthand for candle of invocation.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #273 on: July 02, 2010, 02:05:02 AM »
Nah, broken demon.

Alternatively, magical training + precocious apprentice + summon mirror mephit
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #274 on: July 02, 2010, 02:14:46 AM »
Range of tier optimization would definitely be a good idea for a new thread, or an adjunct and addendum to this one.

Fighters have fairly high customizability, and so can range anywhere from tier 3 to tier 6, whereas any of the ToB classes remain fairly stable at tier 3, but very certain and specific combos (just 2 or 3, and mostly due to rules (mis?)interpretations) can become very powerful and very broken, but in general, they're solid tier 3 and there's not much you can do to move them away from that (it's VERY difficult, if not impossible, to make even a tier 4 warblade or crusader; given the usefulness and power-stability of the maneuvers they get by default, you simply can't do it).

Wizards (and by extension, sorcerers) have the highest variability of any class in the entire game, moving from tier -1 (well beyond merely broken) to tier 7 (even worse than a mildly-optimized commoner), depending on spell selection and play, whereas druids pretty much can't be screwed up unless you just don't use their class abilities at all, and remain tier 1 or REALLY high tier 2 unless you TRY to muck them up.

Maybe we should rank them on an individual basis?
Wizard: Tiers -1 to 7
Druid: Tiers 1 to high 2
Cleric: Tiers 1 to 3
Commoner: Tiers 6 to 4 (See: Infested with Chickens)
...Etc.

Of course, access to prestige classes should have some bearing on it as well. Wizards have tons of PrCs which add to its range, where classes like dread necromancers and artificers pretty much have to stay in their base class because they have so few options.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #275 on: July 02, 2010, 02:16:29 AM »
Of course, access to prestige classes should have some bearing on it as well. Wizards have tons of PrCs which add to its range, where classes like dread necromancers and artificers pretty much have to stay in their base class because they have so few options.
Yeah.  The few prestige classes they can actually get a big benefit out of (renegade mastermaker, rainbow servant) take enough levels to the point where you're judging the prc rather than the class itself.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #276 on: July 02, 2010, 07:13:02 AM »
I forgot about their crafting abilities. Use Warblade in the example then, I don't think they got anything broken.

They top out at infinite attacks (and even still it's only Blood in the Water that's critical from Warblades for that... and you could get it from a feat).  Still, WBL alone can break games wide open, so there's that.

But yes, some classes are easier to mess up and optimize than others.  Druids and Warblades are pretty stable... even though I have seen an effectively T5 Druid (mostly via not using their abilities).  Truenamers are unbelievably unstable.  Fighters I actually don't believe are that unstable... the best you're going to do is have them hit really hard, generally.  That's a max out at T4, though obviously with enough work you could do more.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #277 on: July 21, 2010, 11:00:42 PM »
Marshal is ahead of Hexblade? That seems a tad bit odd

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #278 on: July 21, 2010, 11:57:12 PM »
What do you mean?  They're in the same Tier.  Both have their problems and their uses.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #279 on: July 22, 2010, 12:06:26 AM »
What do you mean?  They're in the same Tier.  Both have their problems and their uses.

JaronK
Hexblade is red(denoting just above tier 5), while Marshal clearly isn't