Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 454241 times)

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Nanshork

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2009, 07:56:16 AM »
No, I'm making fun of you because you bring up fucking Magecraft in every thread ever because it adds a +5 to a skill check. No one cares about +5 to a skill check. A Wizard can just fucking craft that shit without Magecraft too, but no one actually cares enough to brag about it.

You don't care about +5.  Some other people do, people who make characters who craft items.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2009, 09:49:49 AM »
No, I'm making fun of you because you bring up fucking Magecraft in every thread ever because it adds a +5 to a skill check.
So what? Why is it an issue? He uses it, he will list it. Time Stop gets a lot of mention in other threads, because people use it. Celerity does too. Hell, fireball, orb of force, glitterdust. All because people use them. He uses a spell, he's got a right to name it alongside nine other spells in the first line of his post. Getting irritated because of a spell mentioned is... well, interesting, to say the least. It really doesn't matter what he chooses to name, so long as he and others will make use of it.

In an attempt not to form clutter, I'll spoiler this for Kaelik, and to any interested, though I do hope they will respectfully allow him to respond in his own time...
[spoiler]I acknowledge that it's very helpful to disagree and simultaneously have an opinion you can back with some degree of reason, which for the most part you do, but why is it you A) insist on becoming insulting towards the person(s) you disagree with (other threads, occasionally after arguing in a similar manner yourself), B) make fun of the person (This thread), or just tell them you've already decided their argument "doesn't matter" based on the fact that you disagree(other threads, usually in conjunction with A)? I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, mainly because I'm in a number of pbp's with you, and confrontation seemed unwise, but I just have to know what makes you so immediately hostile towards others who have opinions that differ from yours, and further try and show how much more important/intelligent/etc you are when your arguments are countered or tried?

I mean, I only had to read through the first page of your most recent posts to note that a good few insulted people for no reason other than they presented arguments against you that you didn't like. One thread in particular seems not just insulting and vulgar, but also hollowly threatening, and almost seems intended to try and get people to lose enough respect to immediately write off your opinion (I take it you don't know who Caelic is?).

On the one hand, it honestly seems from your posts like you consider yourself above most if not all of the people on this board (I am not saying this is true, just that it seems like this is your opinion), while on the other hand your posting style treats the others on this board so poorly and with such an attitude as to make people either angry or simply write you off as a troll.

I just want to know where it is your coming from, where your mind is, and why you insist on acting in a disrespectful manner (no offense meant, it simply is the case) so often, since it becomes apparent that you will be on this board for a while, and you will rather loudly voice your opinion whenever possible. I believe it will be easier for me to take you seriously, to respect your opinion, and to make myself take your posts seriously, as I believe it will help others on this board (the only reason I'm posting this and not PMing it), if I know a bit about your mindset.[/spoiler]

Zarothar

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2009, 10:33:35 AM »
Okay, so, please don't get mad at me for this. I gather that there was a whole shitstorm over the Erudite and all, and I'm not try to resurrect that...

... but I do gather from the "why Tier X is in Tier X" thread that the Erudite is only really Tier 1 if Spell-to-Power is used. Might I suggest that you add a note to that effect, sort of like what you did with the Samurai?

I'm hoping some dick doesn't take this as an excuse to go off on a tangent about why so-and-so is right/wrong.  :rollseyes It's just a honest suggestion... If I've missed something dreadfully obvious, I'm sorry. :P

juton

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2009, 02:06:10 PM »
Let's try something new : the Generic Spellcaster; is it Tier 1 or Tier 2?

I've heard arguments that it's Tier 0 (which is Bullshit), it's stronger than a Sorcerer, but is it stronger than an Archivist or a Wizard?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2009, 04:25:41 PM »
Still tier two.  Sorcerer-style slow spell advancement/spells known. 
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telehax

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2009, 05:56:12 PM »
It means he cheated.  Runestaffs are arcane only!  No Cleric spells for you!  Also, UMD when used cross class is available to all classes, and as such is not factored in at all (that would be a Class X fallacy if I counted it).

Technically true, however there're domain staffs in Complete Champion, being more or less divine-runestaffs for every single cleric domain.

Bastian

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2009, 08:55:40 PM »
No, I'm making fun of you because you bring up fucking Magecraft in every thread ever because it adds a +5 to a skill check.
So what? Why is it an issue? He uses it, he will list it. Time Stop gets a lot of mention in other threads, because people use it. Celerity does too. Hell, fireball, orb of force, glitterdust. All because people use them. He uses a spell, he's got a right to name it alongside nine other spells in the first line of his post. Getting irritated because of a spell mentioned is... well, interesting, to say the least. It really doesn't matter what he chooses to name, so long as he and others will make use of it.

In an attempt not to form clutter, I'll spoiler this for Kaelik, and to any interested, though I do hope they will respectfully allow him to respond in his own time...
[spoiler]I acknowledge that it's very helpful to disagree and simultaneously have an opinion you can back with some degree of reason, which for the most part you do, but why is it you A) insist on becoming insulting towards the person(s) you disagree with (other threads, occasionally after arguing in a similar manner yourself), B) make fun of the person (This thread), or just tell them you've already decided their argument "doesn't matter" based on the fact that you disagree(other threads, usually in conjunction with A)? I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, mainly because I'm in a number of pbp's with you, and confrontation seemed unwise, but I just have to know what makes you so immediately hostile towards others who have opinions that differ from yours, and further try and show how much more important/intelligent/etc you are when your arguments are countered or tried?

I mean, I only had to read through the first page of your most recent posts to note that a good few insulted people for no reason other than they presented arguments against you that you didn't like. One thread in particular seems not just insulting and vulgar, but also hollowly threatening, and almost seems intended to try and get people to lose enough respect to immediately write off your opinion (I take it you don't know who Caelic is?).

On the one hand, it honestly seems from your posts like you consider yourself above most if not all of the people on this board (I am not saying this is true, just that it seems like this is your opinion), while on the other hand your posting style treats the others on this board so poorly and with such an attitude as to make people either angry or simply write you off as a troll.

I just want to know where it is your coming from, where your mind is, and why you insist on acting in a disrespectful manner (no offense meant, it simply is the case) so often, since it becomes apparent that you will be on this board for a while, and you will rather loudly voice your opinion whenever possible. I believe it will be easier for me to take you seriously, to respect your opinion, and to make myself take your posts seriously, as I believe it will help others on this board (the only reason I'm posting this and not PMing it), if I know a bit about your mindset.[/spoiler]
I can probably answer that question for you. He seems to have a combination of a massive ego and 'someone is wrong on the internet' syndrome. In all my years being a patron of various forums I've met multiple people with the same argument style, so its not that uncommon. Hell, one of my brothers used to have that style of argument until he realized how much of a douche he was being.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 05:34:27 AM by Bastian »

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2009, 12:28:38 AM »
Okay, so, please don't get mad at me for this. I gather that there was a whole shitstorm over the Erudite and all, and I'm not try to resurrect that...

... but I do gather from the "why Tier X is in Tier X" thread that the Erudite is only really Tier 1 if Spell-to-Power is used. Might I suggest that you add a note to that effect, sort of like what you did with the Samurai?

I really should, yeah.  I'm not at all familiar with the class anyway... I'm guessing it's about Tier 2 otherwise?  And for the record, I don't get mad at anyone for expressing an honest opinion and backing it up with some evidence.  "I think X class belongs in Y tier because of Z" is perfectly valid, whether I actually agree with it or not.

Quote
I'm hoping some dick doesn't take this as an excuse to go off on a tangent about why so-and-so is right/wrong.  :rollseyes It's just a honest suggestion... If I've missed something dreadfully obvious, I'm sorry. :P

No, it's a good suggestion, because I haven't seen anybody at all suggest it's Tier 1 without spell to power.   It's still going in itallics.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2009, 04:40:35 AM »
I've updated the House Rules section with some handy links, as well as the FAQ.  Hopefully that should clear a few things up.  At some point I need to put in a thing about the Class X fallacy and the concept of Maximum Allowed Power.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2009, 08:42:11 AM »
Not only am I raising my own voice for kicking Dread Necro and Beguiler up a tier, but I have a question too. What is the Class X fallacy?
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2009, 09:14:05 AM »
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3.0 books like Book of Exalted Deed


Book of Exalted Deeds is 3.5. Just to let you know, again. Unless 3.0 added DR/evil while I wasn't looking.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2009, 09:31:52 AM »
Not only am I raising my own voice for kicking Dread Necro and Beguiler up a tier, but I have a question too. What is the Class X fallacy?

The Class X fallacy is when someone argues that one class is more powerful relative to other classes because of something that applies to all classes.  A good example is "Fighters are powerful and versitile, because they could take cross class UMD ranks to be able to use spellcaster abilities!"  However, the given reason would still be true if you replaced the word "Fighters" in that scentence with any other class... the statement "[Class X] are powerful and versitile, because they could take..." applies just as well.  Hence the name.

And yes, I've seen that very argument.  If you've read that rather comical Monk guide, it used the same thing, only with Monks.  A very common one though is "[Class X] is really strong if a Wizard is there to buff it" or "[Class X] is really strong, since all it has to do is be this powerful race and have these powerful (and non class specific) feats."  Arguing that the Commoner is a powerful class because a Black Ethergaunt Commoner 1 is clearly Tier 1 would be a great example.

As for the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer, I've got good reason to keep them below the Sorcerer and such in terms of raw power, but I will say that the first time I made this system Tier 2 and 3 were merged.  After all, what the Beguiler lacks in super powered spells it often makes up for in useful class features and skills, and it does have some seriously potent spells in its arsinal.  The same can be said of Dread Necromancers.  But playing the three classes (and often with others of the three in the same group) I can safely say that there's a distinct power differential, and it's especially noticeable at higher levels.  I'll give an example.

One game I'm in right now originally had a Dread Necromancer and a Beguiler in the party, starting at level 2 and playing up through level 6.  It also had a Swordsage (technically, a variant that had sudden strike and traded out some manuevers, but it was close enough) and a Paladin of Tyranny/Hexblade, and yes we did intentionally play Tier 3.  It was even pretty noticeable that that last guy was the odd one out... we kept having to leave him behind during stealth and recon missions, because he would have been more of a liability than an asset.  And when we fought, we fought as a great team... the Beguiler dropped Glitterdusts while the Dread Necromancer used Fear Aura and Intimidate, and the Swordsage did precision damage, while the PoT ensured few enemies made their save.  All fine and well.  As we leveled up, the Beguiler player got bored (mostly because the Beguiler just didn't fit his strengths, he was more of a hitty player) and let his character get killed.  Still, it was pretty obvious that all he was doing was spamming Glitterdust all the time... an effective technique, but one easily duplicated by a Sorcerer.  His one big advantage was Mindsight, which he got right before he died.  Then I raised him and now I play him, though the DM won't let him level up so he's stuck at level 6.

Anyway, the Beguiler player switched to a Cleric and then soon left the game, but at the same time a new player came in with a Sorcerer.  She too would spam Glitterdust, but wasn't bothering with power spells at all (she took Mass Reduce Person just because she thought people being small was funny), and now that we were higher level the deficiencies in the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer spell list were really starting to show.  Now that we're 11, in really hurts.  For example, my Dread Necromancer has Lesser Planar Binding and Planar Binding (the latter due to Versitile Spellcaster), but due to lacking Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor all he can do is summon critters into Ghoul Glyphs and then raise them as skeletons (the Caster Level requirement on Bone Creatures, which is entirely DM fiat, keeps me from raising enemies and actually keeping their abilities).  If I was a Sorcerer, this wouldn't be a problem at all, and I could fix our magic item deficiencies (it's a low magic campaign) by binding one of those nifty Dwarven Outsiders that can craft magic items for you.  And I could Bind a Genie to get some Soarwood or Bronzewood and build potent fortifications (it's a campaign where that would help).  There's all sorts of things I could do... but my spells just don't do that sort of thing, and the Beguiler wouldn't have been able to help.  Meanwhile, the only reason the Sorcerer can't is she chose not to.  Recently we got lucky and I managed to possess a Cleric 7, which finally let us play with Magic Circles for a day, and it was a huge power boost just to have that one day of access to the spells we wanted... which were just Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor.  Both of which the Sorcerer could have taken if she wanted.

So, while I love Dread Necromancers and Beguilers, their spell list just lacks the game changing spells that a Sorcerer would have had.  And that's really the difference between Tier 3 and Tier 2... Tier 3 solves problems quite well as they come up, but Tier 2 can say "I want to change how we're playing.  I think I'll do that."  That doesn't necessarily mean wish loops or other such nonsense, but being able to do things like saying "what we really need is a base of operations.  Give me a few days and two runestaffs, and I'll build an underground complex that we can use" or "we really need more magic items.  I'll teleport us to the nearest known metropolis to buy them.  If that doesn't work, I can Planar Bind someone who can make us the magic items we want, and call him again when the work is complete to purchase them."  That sort of stuff takes the game off the tracks the DM had originally intended it to be on in ways that can be jarring at times.  While the Beguiler can do things like "I glitterdust, now the encounter is basically solved" and the Dread Necromancer can do things like "I combine Fear Aura with Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered, thus solving the encounter without spending a spell" the Sorcerer can change the way the party operates on a more profound level, thus changing the campaign itself.

So to be clear, the difference between Tier 2 and Tier 3 is a bit more subtle than the one between Tier 1 and Tier 2.  Non proactive players may find Tier 3 classes to be every bit as strong as Tier 2 classes, simply because they're not trying to pull the campaign off the rails a bit.  But if they wanted to, they could, to whatever degree the DM allows before fiat and nerfs step in.

Really, on the basic comparison of the Dread Necromancer or Beguiler to the Sorcerer, it comes down to this: do you believe the Beguiler or Dread Necromancer have the best Wizard/Sorcerer spells of each level?  And by best, I here mean the strongest spells that would be allowed in whatever campaign.  In a very small subset of games that would be true... the DM would nerf anything stronger than Glitterdust or whatever.  But in the vast majority of games, there would be stronger spells available.  And the Sorcerer could take those, and the difference in power between those spells and what the Dread Necromancer or Beguiler has would be more than the class features of either of those classes, at least past the low-mid levels.  That's something I'm seeing in stark relief in the game I'm in right now that has all three classes.  I love my Fear Aura and my awesome familiar, but I'd kill for Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor.  And quite frankly, a Sorcerer with Animate Dead, Glitterdust, Cloudkill, Celerity, Dominate Monster, and Solid Fog, plus the Mother Cyst feat (which the Beguiler has) could do 90% of what the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer actually do these days, especially now that at level 11 the Sorcerer could create Necrosis Carnexes with Animate Dead.  And they'd still have room for stuff like Magic Circle and Shrink Item and all that.

The other big issue of course is the massive gaps in the Dread Necromancer and Beguiler spell list.  All the really big power spells have been removed (or, in the case of Planar Binding in the DN list and Time Stop on the Beguiler list, made far less strong.  After all, the inability to get access to special abilities from bound creatures and the inability to bust out with Wizard level spells while in Time Stop really changes things).  The only exceptions I'd say are Glitterdust and Colorspray on the Beguiler list, and maybe Animate Dead on the Dread Necromancer list (maybe Create Undead and Create Greater Undead, but DM fiat controls how strong those are).  And then huge areas of spells have been entirely removed.  Nearly all proactive spells are missing from the Beguiler list, while only some of the minion spells are on the Dread Necromancer list.  Missing entirely are the construction spells (Magecraft, Fabricate, Wall of Stone, Move Earth, etc), the magical trap spells (Explosive Runes, the various glyphs), the permanent buff spells (Permanency and everything it can do), and most of the traditional arcanist utility spells (Teleport is a big one).  Minion spells are nearly absent on the Beguiler list (one might count Dominate Monster and Charm Person) and limited on the Dread Necromancer list.  Since proactive power is the kind of power that can really unbalance games quickly, especially if no one else in the party can do it, this matters a great deal when we're talking about intraparty balance.  Really, the Beguiler and Dread Necromancer end up very much like the Crusader or Warblade... strong in their areas of expertise, and competent generally, but greatly lacking in many areas of the game such that they do need the rest of a party to help them out.  The Crusader is incredible at keeping the party alive while still dishing it out in combat effectively and being able to handle Diplomacy when fighting isn't called for, plus he can smash through walls when that's needed, but can't teleport us around or help with our magic item problems.  The Beguiler can locate enemies and disable large groups of enemies and use illusions to really mess with people, but he could never do anything on par with building castles in a few days.  And so on.

Sorry if that was a bit too rambling.  I mean, what do you feel really puts the Dread Necromancer and Beguiler on a level with someone who really can just get us access to magic items when we need them or build fortifications on the fly or contact gods for information when we need it?  Because right now, that's what our party actually needs.  If my Dread Necromancer was replaced with a decently optimized Crusader, the party dynamic would change but the overall power level would be pretty darn similar.  If it were replaced with a Sorcerer/Mage of the Arcane Order or even just a Sorcerer who picked her spells based on what was needed instead of what was funny, we'd be playing a whole new ballgame.  I'm seeing how badly we need a more proactive class right now and while the Factotum's abilities have really helped out, they're just not enough to really do something big (though she did grab Shivering Touch in the clutch, which was great.  Take that, Dragon!).

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2009, 09:39:30 AM »
Book of Exalted Deeds is 3.5. Just to let you know, again. Unless 3.0 added DR/evil while I wasn't looking.

It was actually written during 3.0, then modified and published right after 3.5 came out (4 months later, IIRC).  It's right on the cusp of the changeover, and has elements of 3.0 design in it still, as WotC was still finding its footing with what they wanted to do in the new edition.  Note that BoVD was actually originally printed in 2002, during 3.0, and is paired very much with BoED.  As such, the two books are often considered "3.25" as it were, along with Savage Species, and all three are notorious for their balancing issues (Love's Pain assassination is just nuts for example) and have very sloppy writing.  The result is that they are one of the books least commonly allowed in any given campaign, as far as I've noticed.  And a lot of people think BoED is 3.0 simply because BoVD is.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2009, 01:46:30 PM »
I can sort of support what JaronK said on the DN. WITH that kind of DM fiat, ergo without Corpse and Bone creatures, and without Dreadwarriors, the DN is really a whole lot weaker on a game-changing scale. While a huge pool of zombies and skellies is sure nice, and some might say quite unbalancing in its own way, it doesn't change  the way the game is played.
Now some things are not really out of the DN's reach: A wand of Magic Circle is pretty expensive, but by no means unaffordable after a certain level. The best deal is probably a custom crafted runestaff - which he can't make himself, obviously. In a high magic setting it should surely be available as a custom ordered item, but not always. And that's a bit of a problem.

In addition, the DN, for all the fact that he's supposed to be the mastermind, or rather, a necromancer as an ideal is supposed to be some sort of mastermind having his minions set his plans into motion, totally lacks means to produce a viable mastermind game mechanic. He cannot scry, cannot commune or otherwise do useful stuff in that respect. His logistical means are limited to undead servants (who are often rather less than intelligent) and his familiar, which is sort of.. disapointing.

I have to say though, at high levels this all goes away, as soon as you DO get intelligent minions, which a wizard will never be able to do, due to lack of rebuking. At that point I'm not sure they aren't equal, because a Necro can invariably get access to mostly everything.

SorO_Lost

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2009, 03:22:46 PM »
Breaking out the whole "I UMD a runestaff" thing eh?

Healer holding a runestaff: "lol omg wtg dairy queen bbq im uber uber leet"
Is there anyone who loves this class enough to demand that it gets retiered?


*crickets*



So back on my UMD line of questioning, does UMDing a runestaff to cast someone else's spells instantly mean you are just as powerful as them or does fall under the same things that explain a Common sucks no matter how much he relies on UMD?
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2009, 03:46:23 PM »


So back on my UMD line of questioning, does UMDing a runestaff to cast someone else's spells instantly mean you are just as powerful as them or does fall under the same things that explain a Common sucks no matter how much he relies on UMD?

No it doesn't, but if UMDing a runestaff enables you to use your own class features to greater effect then that makes you more powerful, in the sense that the gain is greater than the gain any other guy would get.
Also, after a certain point the gain from UMDing the runestaff is the same as using the runestaff. When sorcs use them they expand their spell list. Anybody with UMD and spell slots can do the same, to the same effect. It's secondary versatility. Beguilers get it due to natural UMD, DNs get it due to being Cha-casters, but they really have to fight for the skill points.

My argument also wasn't that UMD makes them equal to wizards, it was that minions make them equal to wizards.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2009, 02:39:30 AM »
I can sort of support what JaronK said on the DN. WITH that kind of DM fiat, ergo without Corpse and Bone creatures, and without Dreadwarriors, the DN is really a whole lot weaker on a game-changing scale. While a huge pool of zombies and skellies is sure nice, and some might say quite unbalancing in its own way, it doesn't change  the way the game is played.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I found.  Having a bunch of weak minions doesn't really help very much except in very specific situations.  Every once in a while I'd get a big nasty skeleton, and that would help, but space quickly becomes an issue... I can't actually bring all those skeletons and zombies to bear on one target.

Quote
Now some things are not really out of the DN's reach: A wand of Magic Circle is pretty expensive, but by no means unaffordable after a certain level.

Cross class UMD... ouch.  Doable, but not easy... at least the DC is only 20 for that.  You'll likely need Dimensional Anchor to get the good stuff as well.

Quote
The best deal is probably a custom crafted runestaff - which he can't make himself, obviously. In a high magic setting it should surely be available as a custom ordered item, but not always. And that's a bit of a problem.

Again cross classing UMD (at least this is on a Charisma class), and custom items are always easy to break.  I tend to assume custom items aren't something i should rank based on.  After all, there are a ton of broken customized items, and this system is designed to help players and DMs know what's balanced before house ruled stuff (including what custom items are available at all).  I mean, a lot of classes would be a lot nastier with a permanent Wraithstrike and permanent Swift Haste item, you know?

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In addition, the DN, for all the fact that he's supposed to be the mastermind, or rather, a necromancer as an ideal is supposed to be some sort of mastermind having his minions set his plans into motion, totally lacks means to produce a viable mastermind game mechanic. He cannot scry, cannot commune or otherwise do useful stuff in that respect. His logistical means are limited to undead servants (who are often rather less than intelligent) and his familiar, which is sort of.. disapointing.

Actually, the Ghostly Visage is awesome.  Check out the ego rules... if he possesses someone else, he can control them for 24 hours.  If you make that work on a power class, it's incredible... I actually managed to land it on a Cleric recently in a game where I'm playing a DN, and it was great.  Also, that paralyzing gaze is really handy.  But I overall agree with your point... Dread Necromancers, despite their fluff, are not very good at the whole "Muhahaha I have built an evil army to crush you!" thing.  They're more like leutenants of the evil army than masters... they can control a lot of troops, but that's about it.

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I have to say though, at high levels this all goes away, as soon as you DO get intelligent minions, which a wizard will never be able to do, due to lack of rebuking. At that point I'm not sure they aren't equal, because a Necro can invariably get access to mostly everything.

Wizards can do it with Command Undead, Control Undead, and Awaken Undead (which doesn't lose you control when used on Animate Dead minions).  DNs do it better, but only if you know how to optimize Rebuke Undead (which is certainly possible).  And again, to get undead with actual class abilities and such requires DM fiat on the whole Bone Creature issue... if setting specific material isn't allowed.  Create Undead and the Greater version don't do it otherwise.  If setting specific stuff is allowed then Animate Dread Warrior is on the table and all bets are off... but then again, a Wizard can do that just fine too, without burning an Advanced Learning for it.  It always hurt me that DNs had to chose between Awaken Undead, Animate Dread Warrior, and Haunt Shift.  I mean seriously, those are awesome spells for a necromancer, so why are they missing?

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2009, 02:54:28 AM »

  Then Tier 2 means you can change the game, what was that phrase, Adders & Accountants, sure. And Tier 1's are classes that change the game better? You'd think in the spirit of it then to just put up Sorc as a weak T1.

  About Beguilers & DN's, the Druid is in it's tier because of Natural Spell. If you aren't using it your under-optimised. Why not apply that reasoning to classes who have the spell learning mechanic to use Arcane Disciple well?

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2009, 04:07:20 AM »

  Then Tier 2 means you can change the game, what was that phrase, Adders & Accountants, sure. And Tier 1's are classes that change the game better? You'd think in the spirit of it then to just put up Sorc as a weak T1.

Adders and Accountants has nothing to do with it.  Remember, the point of the system is to allow DMs and Players to achieve greater balance.  Now, consider what DMs actually care about, balance wise: how much does the class force me to change my campaign?  Weaker tier classes require the DM to change the campaign so that it plays to those classes' strengths, thus allowing them to shine (since players tend to like feeling like they're in the spotlight and can do something).  For example, one DM I know was recently complaining to me about how having a Fighter in the party meant he had to throw a combat into every gaming session, even when what we were doing didn't call for it, just because the Fighter players would get really bored otherwise.  Stronger tier classes force the DM to change the campaign to compensate for the classes' strengths.  If you want a low magic item campaign, you have to nerf the various T1 abilities that result in the party getting more wealth and more magic items.

Meanwhile, classes like the Sorcerer can indeed require the DM to make house rules and campaign changes to avoid having the campaign go off track, but it's FAR easier than keeping a Wizard in check.  After all, it sucks when you were trying to make a big epic fight with a Dragon and the darn Wizard just one hit TKOs it with Spectral Hand/Celerity/Shivering Touch, or when you're trying to make a campaign about mystery when the Wizard casts Contact Other Plane to learn about what the mystery is, or when you want to do an adventure about traveling and the Wizard just teleports the party to the destination.  At least with a Sorcerer, you generally know what tricks they've got up their sleeve, and can more easily compensate.  It's a whole different level.

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  About Beguilers & DN's, the Druid is in it's tier because of Natural Spell. If you aren't using it your under-optimised. Why not apply that reasoning to classes who have the spell learning mechanic to use Arcane Disciple well?

No, the Druid is not in its Tier because of Natural Spell.  Natural Spell just lets the Druid be a melee powerhouse while simultaneously casting spells... it doesn't actually make the Druid capable of anything more, just capable of doing more things at once.  I've never said that lacking Natural Spell makes you under optimized.  I don't know where you got that idea, but you didn't get it from me.  What I said was that the system applies to equivalent optimization, so if you're comparing, for example, a Beguiler who's using Complete series books to get more spells known to a Sorcerer, then you should probably be comparing it to a Sorcerer who's doing the same thing.  Thus, a Beguiler with Arcane Disciple compares to a Sorcerer with Mage of the Arcane Order... and it's easy to see which one is stronger there.  One of them has a few game altering spells that are only really impressive at a few levels, and one has a few books of them that are impressive at all levels. 

It's really pretty straightforward.  And please try to read the system before commenting on it.  It's all spelled out nicely in the FAQ, including the very clear part about how it's measuring classes with equivalent optimization.  There's nothing about "under optimization" in there.  It doesn't matter if you optimize a lot or a little, as long as you do the same with each class.  The one class where optimization levels really change their standing is the Truenamer, which is marked separately specifically because of that.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2009, 04:50:17 AM »
Jaronk that was a great argument/explanation. Bravo  :clap
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