Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 466246 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #180 on: December 23, 2009, 07:35:35 PM »
It's a feat, not a PrC.

Ah, I don't have Champions of Valor so I didn't know about that one.  God, that makes it all very confusing... a single feat makes the class far stronger, but only for the first 10 levels, after which point it rapidly drops away in power.  This sounds like a very hard class to rank.  If you don't take the feat, It's T3-4, if you do it's basically T1 for 10 levels and then drops back down to T3 later on.  That's really annoying.

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deuxhero

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #181 on: December 24, 2009, 12:13:29 AM »
Not all the way back to where it is without SoTAO, even after 10 level 5 wizard spells are still nukes, just lower yield ones.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #182 on: December 24, 2009, 05:54:42 AM »
True enough.  I mean you've still got Animate Dead, Shrink Item, Alter Self, and a host of others.  But those pale in comparison to the T1s and the T2s once they start getting up there in levels.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #183 on: December 24, 2009, 11:51:07 AM »
How is alter self good when you have wild shape as a class feature?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #184 on: December 24, 2009, 12:06:23 PM »
How is alter self good when you have wild shape as a class feature?
Because WS is into animals and AS is into creatures of your type. (Like Humanoid or, I don't know, Outsider.)
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #185 on: December 24, 2009, 12:52:06 PM »
How is alter self good when you have wild shape as a class feature?
Consider how useful it would be for, say, a warforged. As a construct, you can gain bonus feats, additional movement modes, and special attacks as an astral construct.

Also good to conserve wildshape uses if you expect to have to change form a bunch for difficult or utility encounters (or if you've already used them up for the day for those same encounters).
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #186 on: December 24, 2009, 07:08:03 PM »
How is alter self good when you have wild shape as a class feature?

An outsider WS Ranger could use Alter Self to turn into a Dwarf Ancestor for +15 Natural AC, for one thing.  WS won't get you there, at least not that that level.  There are a number of other really nice forms you could get that WS won't get you for a while.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #187 on: December 25, 2009, 02:17:08 AM »
You can also overlap wild shape with alter self, without ruining the duration of one or the other. You're still humanoid (or construct, or outsider, or whatever), but shaped like an animal for 1 hour/lvl while wild shaped. If you find that you need hands, you cast alter self, which gets you a humanoid (or construct, or outsider, or whatever) form, which will give you whatever ability you need for a few minutes (and is dismissable). Keep in mind that you still have your animal stats (which don't change), so you could turn into a dire badger for the stats, then alter self into an astral construct or something, and still use weapons and items and stuff.
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #188 on: December 29, 2009, 09:27:45 PM »

[spoiler]
ardent - Tier 2 or Tier 3. Probably very low Tier 2 because of its small powers known but its friendly to dipping and has a good supply of PP.I third tier 2, tier 3 seems to low


cloistered cleric (obviously still tier 1) - YupHigher tier 1 than normal


dragon shaman (first page had no consensus on 4...) I would go 1 down from bard.
dragonfire adept (Hmm probably 4 also) It should be the same as warlock


incarnate - Tier 3 decently versatile, can spontaneously swap out known things. Might be a high tier 4

shadowcaster - Tier 3, like a sorcerer but less.

soulborn- About the same as a paladin sans mount, charisma to bonus saves, and gets bad bonus feats instead. 1 down from paladin would be appropriate.

spirit shaman (tier 2 because it tries to do too much and doesn't quite succeed) - AgreedI would put this at low tier 1-high tier 2  


totemist (4?) - Tier 3, about the same as incarnate.


Wu jen should be about where a core wizard would be. It is a little bit weaker, but not by much. Glitterdust, Evards, contact other plane, and explosive runes are the major spells missing from the list.
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« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 09:33:40 PM by lans »
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #189 on: December 29, 2009, 10:22:12 PM »
ardent - Tier 2 or Tier 3. Probably very low Tier 2 because of its small powers known but its friendly to dipping and has a good supply of PP.I third tier 2, tier 3 seems to low

One of these days I really have to go over psionics a bunch.  I've only very rarely had them in my game and only for short times, hence their poor representation in the system.

Quote
cloistered cleric (obviously still tier 1) - YupHigher tier 1 than normal

Well, it's the spells that make it powerful, so it's not that noticeable a difference.  But I certainly agree that it's T1, and that it's a touch stronger than the normal Cleric most of the time (though if not doing DMM then the BAB and armor decrease makes them worse in kick in the door style games occasionally.  Obviously, Knowledge Devotion really helps them out.

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dragon shaman (first page had no consensus on 4...) I would go 1 down from bard.
dragonfire adept (Hmm probably 4 also) It should be the same as warlock

Also two classes I'm very unfamiliar with, but a lot of people seem to agree with these.

Quote
incarnate - Tier 3 decently versatile, can spontaneously swap out known things. Might be a high tier 4

shadowcaster - Tier 3, like a sorcerer but less.

soulborn- About the same as a paladin sans mount, charisma to bonus saves, and gets bad bonus feats instead. 1 down from paladin would be appropriate.

totemist (4?) - Tier 3, about the same as incarnate.

More classes I need to check out more, but your assessments sound reasonable.  Paladin is already T5 though, so Soulborn would probably be low T5... I doubt they're at the CW Samurai/Warrior level.

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spirit shaman (tier 2 because it tries to do too much and doesn't quite succeed) - AgreedI would put this at low tier 1-high tier 2  

Considering their spell list, I'm quite sure they're in the 1-2 range.  Still deciding on this.

Quote
Wu jen should be about where a core wizard would be. It is a little bit weaker, but not by much. Glitterdust, Evards, contact other plane, and explosive runes are the major spells missing from the list.

Yeah, with Wu Jen their general lack of super powered spells actually feels more T3 to me.  They're more versitile than Sorcerers but lack the raw power that requires DMs to adapt to them a lot.  But they might be T2, because they've still got stuff that hits quite hard, and if they get more spells from SpC that could have a serious effect.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #190 on: December 30, 2009, 02:29:16 AM »
Paladin is already T5 though, so Soulborn would probably be low T5... I doubt they're at the CW Samurai/Warrior level.

Yeah, with Wu Jen their general lack of super powered spells actually feels more T3 to me.  They're more versitile than Sorcerers but lack the raw power that requires DMs to adapt to them a lot.  But they might be T2, because they've still got stuff that hits quite hard, and if they get more spells from SpC that could have a serious effect.
Yup on T3 Wu Jen, and T6/T5 Soulborn. Honestly who plays a soulborn?
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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deuxhero

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #191 on: December 30, 2009, 03:07:11 AM »
So for WSMR tier 1 for 2-10 (you are a druid with wizard spells and one less fighter, though your remaining one is better) and low tier 2 for 10-20 with SoTAA (You can still play god, just a less powerful god) and higher tier 3 without SoTAA?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #192 on: December 30, 2009, 12:17:29 PM »

shadowcaster - Tier 3, like a sorcerer but less.


Ugh.... The shadowcaster should be like Tier 7. Not for being absolutely weak, but for being a horrible horrible class.


Sorry, but that's just me. I can't help myself. It should be called Shuddercaster... ew.

lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #193 on: December 30, 2009, 02:15:00 PM »

shadowcaster - Tier 3, like a sorcerer but less.


Ugh.... The shadowcaster should be like Tier 7. Not for being absolutely weak, but for being a horrible horrible class.


Sorry, but that's just me. I can't help myself. It should be called Shuddercaster... ew.
Its still a level 9 caster though. It also gets decent spells, but not broken ones like sorcerer or as a many as sorcerer. Some of the spells are more powerful as well. Its shadow evocation spells emulate up to equal level spells.
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lans

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #194 on: December 30, 2009, 02:15:55 PM »
Paladin is already T5 though, so Soulborn would probably be low T5... I doubt they're at the CW Samurai/Warrior level.
I  forgot that paladin was tier 5. Low tier 5 would be appropriate then.

Quote
Yeah, with Wu Jen their general lack of super powered spells actually feels more T3 to me.  They're more versitile than Sorcerers but lack the raw power that requires DMs to adapt to them a lot. 


They are missing some spells, but on the super powered list, I can only think of explosive runes. They still got the alterself line, spirit binding is fairly analogous to planar binding, they get gate, limited wish, wish,  rope trick, and a good chunk of other stuff. I may be devaluing certain spells in my judgment. What important spells do you feel they are missing.
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But they might be T2, because they've still got stuff that hits quite hard, and if they get more spells from SpC that could have a serious effect.
I can't see them being lower than two. there list is pretty solid, and they can easily get more spells onto there list as a prepared arcane caster with a book. Like I said, point out the major spells that they are missing and we can compare to a sorcerer and see if its much lower than that

Quote
Yup on T3 Wu Jen,
I need a very good list of what spells the wu jen lacks for me to agree to T3. I can easily see tier 2, because CoreWizard is still tier 1, and CoreSorcerer is still tier 2, and I don't think they fall 2-1 tiers from them.

and
Quote
T6/T5 Soulborn. Honestly who plays a soulborn?
One issue I have is that soulborns may have a good level of versitility, so they might be tier 4. I just discount them heavily due to the other incarnum classes.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #195 on: December 30, 2009, 05:59:23 PM »
One issue I have is that soulborns may have a good level of versitility, so they might be tier 4. I just discount them heavily due to the other incarnum classes.
Um what? I love the totemist... but I feel no love for the soulborns. It's like a wimpy pally
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
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sonofzeal

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #196 on: December 30, 2009, 07:21:09 PM »
One issue I have is that soulborns may have a good level of versitility, so they might be tier 4. I just discount them heavily due to the other incarnum classes.
Um what? I love the totemist... but I feel no love for the soulborns. It's like a wimpy pally
I was under the impression that, while Soulborns are wimpy by Incarnum standards (which aren't all that heavy hitters themselves), they're still basically on par with SotAO-less Paladins.  The only major flaw compared to their core kin is lack of splat support, and that they don't really get enough incarnum to do too much interesting.  They're well below Incarnate, but not really down in Divine Mind or Samurai territory by my understanding.  That said, I've never actually played one, so take this with a grain of salt.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #197 on: December 30, 2009, 07:25:52 PM »
So for WSMR tier 1 for 2-10 (you are a druid with wizard spells and one less fighter, though your remaining one is better) and low tier 2 for 10-20 with SoTAA (You can still play god, just a less powerful god) and higher tier 3 without SoTAA?

High Tier 2/Low Tier 1 with Touchstone tech, as if you're willing to devote the feats to it, you can get 9th level slots and fill them with Wizard spells.  You won't be an Incantatrix by any means, but you can hide in plain sight while dropping 9th level arcanes.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #198 on: December 30, 2009, 07:35:38 PM »
On the Wu Jen, I honestly haven't reviewed their list enough to say for sure whether they're T2 or 3.  They don't have enough options to be T1, so it's just a question of whether a DM would have to seriously alter a campaign (either in rules, agreements, or plot) to keep them from blowing things out a bit, or not.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #199 on: December 30, 2009, 07:48:29 PM »
I'd say Wu Jen is about on par with a Tier 2 spellcaster, even more so if the gm is in any way lenient in letting the player add spells to the spell list (as they should).