Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 466235 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #160 on: December 22, 2009, 03:24:41 AM »
Battle Sorcerer is still Tier 2.  I just don't list variants of classes unless they're actually on a different tier, which is rare except for classes that are right on the edge anyway (like Fighters).  Cloistered Cleric is also still Tier 1.  Really, the differences aren't much... a Battle Sorcerer is generally weaker than a regular Sorcerer, but it can still do the same things (just fewer of them on any given build) and is better for certain gish builds.  Cloistered Cleric loses stuff that doesn't matter (BAB, which it can get back with Divine Power, plus some armor and hitpoints) but gains stuff that I think is better (many more skills, a few more spells) but isn't enough to be that significant in the long run.

Likewise, Bardic Sage and Divine Bard are pretty much the same as Bard.

So yeah, you can pretty much consider any variant that's not listed as being the same place as the main class, except in a few cases where I noted otherwise or in a few possible cases where I just forgot something.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #161 on: December 22, 2009, 04:53:12 AM »
http://l5r.alderac.com/archive/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf

It's a got 10d6 sneak attack and Full BAB, only has 2 other class features worth mentioning, Int to initiative and Con Mod * 5 to land speed. It's OK for dipping by a 'Daring Outlaw' Rogue/Swashbuckler does everything it does, but better.
Okay, so its homebrew. I only use official stuff

Some of these are just variants of other base classes whose rating won't change much or all.
Yes I know. But if you notice I listed all the seperate base classes but not the substitution-based variants that are not seperate.

Oh and I forgot an oddball for you Jaron, spontaneous variant Cleric (technically a seperate class). Obviously Tier 2 :)

Not replicating mentioning the variants is fine, just asterisk each base class once per variant. That seems like an awesomely compact compromise (then just spoiler the bottom to list the variants if you want)
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #162 on: December 22, 2009, 04:57:35 AM »
Yes I know. But if you notice I listed all the seperate base classes but not the substitution-based variants that are not seperate.

I consider class variants to be the same class, generally, unless there's a massive difference.

Quote
Oh and I forgot an oddball for you Jaron, spontaneous variant Cleric (technically a seperate class). Obviously Tier 2 :)

Well, that's a good example of a massive difference... that's basically a lame Favored Soul IIRC.

Quote
Not replicating mentioning the variants is fine, just asterisk each base class once per variant. That seems like an awesomely compact compromise (then just spoiler the bottom to list the variants if you want)

Hmm, good point.  I should get back to that just so people know what's been considered.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #163 on: December 22, 2009, 05:45:30 AM »
You've got the Wildshape Ranger down, but not the Mystic Ranger. And quite frankly, this is the one that really makes the ranger interesting, the WS Ranger is only good for entering PrCs. That being said I think it's high 4/low 3, something like that.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #164 on: December 22, 2009, 10:04:00 AM »
You've got the Wildshape Ranger down, but not the Mystic Ranger. And quite frankly, this is the one that really makes the ranger interesting, the WS Ranger is only good for entering PrCs. That being said I think it's high 4/low 3, something like that.

Yeah, I just have to look Mystic Ranger over, something I haven't done yet.

WS Ranger is in T3 because of how much extra flexibility it gains over the standard Ranger.  It's perfectly fine even without PrCing... it's just weak compared to the Druid (but that's not surprising).

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #165 on: December 22, 2009, 10:31:49 AM »
I was talking about the Mystic Ranger....

I'm not sure I would put it in Tier 3, because the spells it has are not really comparable to Full casting, but then, you can combine it with the WS variant :), at which point I do think it's Tier 3.

deuxhero

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #166 on: December 22, 2009, 01:17:18 PM »
Let's look at Mystic Ranger

Hmm, was there a practiced wildshaper feat that would counteract the Mystic Wildshape Ranger's delayed by one level wildshape?

The odd progression (highest level spells by level 10) makes it favorable for a prestige class that gets a hit to it's casting progression (MoMF). I take it WSMR qualifys for Sword of the Arcane Order, so that's 5th level wizard spells (!) roughly when Wizards get them (YES! Oh god yes). With SotAO I'd lean to WSMR a low tier 2 (How many game breaking things can be done with EVERY fifth level wizard spell known and good combat abilities? You are basically a druid with wizard spells and one less fighter as a class feature). Without it, I'd make it high tier 3 (Basicly a bard with much better combat abilitys and quicker access to spells).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 01:29:36 PM by deuxhero »

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #167 on: December 22, 2009, 01:38:34 PM »
A lot of people assign Spirit Shaman to Tier 1, having played one I don't understand why. Druid spells are nice, sure and the Spirit Shaman gets nine levels of them. But their daily allotment of spells known is HORRIBLE in play, literally the least fun I've ever had with a character.

I think its really that Spirit Shaman is pretty much between Tier 1 and Tier 2.  I played one, and I would rank it as tier 1, although some of that is that the DM allowed me to use the "Spirit turning" attempts to power divine feats as if they were undead turning.  I didn't use DMM cheese, but just turning on the other feat options put it solidly in Tier 1.

I would err on the side of caution and put it in Tier 1. But really for a lot of groups the divide between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is pretty narrow. As JaronK said in the OP, Tier 2 classes still have 10 nuclear weapons. Putting it in Tier 1 or Tier 2 is probably fine, as most people are likely to treat those tiers similarly (in terms of bannings, house rule modifications, etc).

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #168 on: December 22, 2009, 06:21:29 PM »
I checked that link, but didn't actually see the Mystic Ranger among the listed substitutions.  I also don't have that dragon magazine.  Hmm.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #169 on: December 22, 2009, 07:08:19 PM »
Really? At the bottom on the main thread, under Dragon (I also linked to a post that first mentions it).

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #170 on: December 22, 2009, 07:44:32 PM »
Wow, that's weird, I went to a different place this time.

Anyway, it doesn't look that strong... obviously it's stronger early on due to that bizarre spell progression.  It doesn't seem to get any of the really powerful spells or anything, and of course never progresses beyond fifth level.  I don't know if it should count as T3 or not... it feels like it might be for the first 10 levels but not after that, which is always annoying.  Stupid designers making hard to classify classes.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #171 on: December 22, 2009, 08:20:19 PM »
http://l5r.alderac.com/archive/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf

It's a got 10d6 sneak attack and Full BAB, only has 2 other class features worth mentioning, Int to initiative and Con Mod * 5 to land speed. It's OK for dipping by a 'Daring Outlaw' Rogue/Swashbuckler does everything it does, but better.
Okay, so its homebrew. I only use official stuff

Examine the link more carefully.  It isn't homebrew, it's L5R (Legend of the Five Rings).  AEG expanded the OA book into a more fully fleshed out setting.
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deuxhero

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #172 on: December 23, 2009, 01:16:05 AM »
Wow, that's weird, I went to a different place this time.

Anyway, it doesn't look that strong... obviously it's stronger early on due to that bizarre spell progression.  It doesn't seem to get any of the really powerful spells or anything, and of course never progresses beyond fifth level.  I don't know if it should count as T3 or not... it feels like it might be for the first 10 levels but not after that, which is always annoying.  Stupid designers making hard to classify classes.

JaronK

5th level Wizard spells one level behind Wizards and being much less squishy still seems like it can be broken clean in half.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #173 on: December 23, 2009, 01:17:47 AM »
Wow, that's weird, I went to a different place this time.

Anyway, it doesn't look that strong... obviously it's stronger early on due to that bizarre spell progression.  It doesn't seem to get any of the really powerful spells or anything, and of course never progresses beyond fifth level.  I don't know if it should count as T3 or not... it feels like it might be for the first 10 levels but not after that, which is always annoying.  Stupid designers making hard to classify classes.

JaronK

5th level Wizard spells one level behind Wizards and being much less squishy still seems like it can be broken clean in half.
I thought we weren't talking about the battle sorcerer.
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #174 on: December 23, 2009, 01:19:46 AM »
5th level Wizard spells one level behind Wizards and being much less squishy still seems like it can be broken clean in half.

I wasn't aware the Mystic Ranger got any Wizard spells other than a very small number of specific ones (Baleful Polymorph and Awaken seem interesting, but that's about it).  Did I miss something?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #175 on: December 23, 2009, 02:45:07 AM »
5th level Wizard spells one level behind Wizards and being much less squishy still seems like it can be broken clean in half.

I wasn't aware the Mystic Ranger got any Wizard spells other than a very small number of specific ones (Baleful Polymorph and Awaken seem interesting, but that's about it).  Did I miss something?

JaronK

He is talking about using Sword of the Arcane Order to get the wizard spells. This combo, wirh WSMR is pretty decent as a daggerspell shaper, as it progresses wild shape and your spellcasting.
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #176 on: December 23, 2009, 05:44:04 AM »
Yes I know. But if you notice I listed all the seperate base classes but not the substitution-based variants that are not seperate.

I consider class variants to be the same class, generally, unless there's a massive difference.
That's fine for you, but for everyone else there are specific (usually...) rules about which variant is seperate and which isn't (like racial subs)

Quote
Not replicating mentioning the variants is fine, just asterisk each base class once per variant. That seems like an awesomely compact compromise (then just spoiler the bottom to list the variants if you want)

Hmm, good point.  I should get back to that just so people know what's been considered.
Thanks I will personally enjoy when its implemented

I played one, and I would rank it as tier 1, although some of that is that the DM allowed me to use the "Spirit turning" attempts to power divine feats as if they were undead turning.
Ug that would do it. No the spirit turning IS NOT a turn undead ability so it can't fuel divine feats. This makes me think Tier 2. Don't get me wrong, I love the class but its just not tier 1 material.

Let's look at Mystic Ranger

Hmm, was there a practiced wildshaper feat that would counteract the Mystic Wildshape Ranger's delayed by one level wildshape?

The odd progression (highest level spells by level 10) makes it favorable for a prestige class that gets a hit to it's casting progression (MoMF). I take it WSMR qualifys for Sword of the Arcane Order, so that's 5th level wizard spells (!) roughly when Wizards get them (YES! Oh god yes). With SotAO I'd lean to WSMR a low tier 2 (How many game breaking things can be done with EVERY fifth level wizard spell known and good combat abilities? You are basically a druid with wizard spells and one less fighter as a class feature). Without it, I'd make it high tier 3 (Basicly a bard with much better combat abilitys and quicker access to spells).
This is the tier after optimization. The rating should be before optimization. In an ECL10 1 shot campaign, this is good though. And no there is no feat that ensure the WS to work like you want but there are other ways (the chaining works without it).

Examine the link more carefully.  It isn't homebrew, it's L5R (Legend of the Five Rings).  AEG expanded the OA book into a more fully fleshed out setting.
So that makes it published homebrew? (aka 3rd party)

It doesn't seem to be in the official OA book. I'm confused why it is in the list.
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It blows MoMF out of the water

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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #177 on: December 23, 2009, 07:35:05 AM »
He is talking about using Sword of the Arcane Order to get the wizard spells. This combo, wirh WSMR is pretty decent as a daggerspell shaper, as it progresses wild shape and your spellcasting.

Ah, then that would be the PrC, not the base class.  I can't rank the classes with assumptions as to what PrCs you'll be using.  After all, Binder would be Tier 1 if I assumed you were always going into Anima Mage, and the Spellthief would be much higher if I assumed you were going into Shadowcraft Mage.  People will simply have to notice if the base class is being significantly improved by a PrC... they're ranked without considering PrCs much.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #178 on: December 23, 2009, 10:59:43 AM »
He is talking about using Sword of the Arcane Order to get the wizard spells. This combo, wirh WSMR is pretty decent as a daggerspell shaper, as it progresses wild shape and your spellcasting.

Ah, then that would be the PrC, not the base class.  I can't rank the classes with assumptions as to what PrCs you'll be using.  After all, Binder would be Tier 1 if I assumed you were always going into Anima Mage, and the Spellthief would be much higher if I assumed you were going into Shadowcraft Mage.  People will simply have to notice if the base class is being significantly improved by a PrC... they're ranked without considering PrCs much.

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deuxhero

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #179 on: December 23, 2009, 01:34:27 PM »
Yeah, SoTAO pretty much makes the MWSR a low tier 2 over a tier 3.

Now, what tier is the Gleaner (homebrew, created by first party author)? It gets spontainous casting (better when it has few good spells anyways) and has class features compared to an adept, but lacks any of it's good spells. The best spells it seems to get are control weather (2 spell levels early, 5 class levels late) fog cloud (2 class levels late) a pesdo animal companion (nothing says it can't also a Wild Cohort), Soften Earth and Stone (can stop charges) Soothe the Thirsty Soil (useful if you want to... rain on someones parade or are expecting flyers with 2 castings, but it hurts your side just as much, high casting time low duration also bad)

Blessed beast+wild cohort isn't QUITE a fighter as a class feature, but better than a warrior.