Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 454254 times)

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juton

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #140 on: December 20, 2009, 05:56:19 PM »
It's a good analogy that's especially apt. You might just want to cut to the quick though and say at the top something like 'the Tiers: a tool for balancing parties'. You also might want to put a disclaimer that a PC is only as strong as the player, a player that runs their Wizard like a Warmage isn't playing a Tier 1 character.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #141 on: December 20, 2009, 09:46:22 PM »
It's a good analogy that's especially apt. You might just want to cut to the quick though and say at the top something like 'the Tiers: a tool for balancing parties'. You also might want to put a disclaimer that a PC is only as strong as the player, a player that runs their Wizard like a Warmage isn't playing a Tier 1 character.

I'm pretty sure that stuff is in the original posts.  But I can do some reorganization.  I get pretty wordy sometimes.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #142 on: December 21, 2009, 05:38:23 AM »
Whoa you're still running this thing? Hmm well in that case can I get a community rating on the base classes that you are missing? There are TONS!
[Spoiler]
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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And healed. Don't forget that.
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juton

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #143 on: December 21, 2009, 05:55:15 AM »
I've always been kind of curious what the consensus would be for the Wu Jen, Spirit Shaman and the Generic Caster. They're all special cases, well maybe the Wu Jen isn't that special.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #144 on: December 21, 2009, 06:37:12 AM »
Rough guess is the Wu Jen at Tier 2-3 and the same for the Generic Caster.

And if the community wants to vote on where a specific class I don't have is that's fine... with enough arguing I may put them in with Italics.  I don't put them in without that unless I've actually played the class or played with the class.  But yes, I still update this rarely.

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DavidWL

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #145 on: December 21, 2009, 06:43:36 AM »
Generic Caster is probably (low) tier 1 - much better than the sorcerer because of much improved spell selection.  Being able to mix in things like Miracle, Consumptive Field, Anyspell, and Greater Anyspell significantly increase the sorcerer's power and flexibility.

Spirit Shaman is also low tier 1 or tier 2 - casts comparable to a Druid (both versatility and spell selection, changeable daily), but without the awesomeness that is an animal companion or wildshape.

I'd probably put Wu Jen at tier 2 - like a wizard, but with a much reduced spell list.

Best,
David
« Last Edit: December 21, 2009, 06:58:47 AM by DavidWL »
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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deuxhero

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #146 on: December 21, 2009, 06:54:10 AM »
Full caster with (techniclly) no limit on spells known and a decent spell list says tier 1. Likely a low tier 1, but teir one none the cless.

sonofzeal

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #147 on: December 21, 2009, 07:08:43 AM »
Full caster with (techniclly) no limit on spells known and a decent spell list says tier 1. Likely a low tier 1, but teir one none the cless.
The difference between a Wizard and a Warmage is spell list.  Wu Jens are intended to be Wizard-ish, but since they have a distinct spell list (that's rarely if at all expanded in any books), they lose out heavily compared to Wizards.  I'd probably put them high Tier 2.

deuxhero

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #148 on: December 21, 2009, 07:12:14 AM »
Spirit Shaman is the druid list LTIC. Quite well supported.

That said, they likely fall last on tier one if there (They are basicly druids without 2 fighters as class features. Every other class on teir is better then them).

sonofzeal

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #149 on: December 21, 2009, 07:34:17 AM »
Spirit Shaman is the druid list LTIC. Quite well supported.

That said, they likely fall last on tier one if there (They are basicly druids without 2 fighters as class features. Every other class on teir is better then them).
Ah, I thought you were talking about Wu Jen.  Spirit Shaman, yeah, "low 1".

juton

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #150 on: December 21, 2009, 07:50:45 AM »
Generic Caster is probably (low) tier 1 - much better than the sorcerer because of much improved spell selection.  Being able to mix in things like Miracle, Consumptive Field, Anyspell, and Greater Anyspell significantly increase the sorcerer's power and flexibility.

Is a generic caster better than a Sorcerer? Definitely, but it still has the same limited spells per day and slightly more restrictive multiclassing. Because of its limited SpD it can break the game in only a few set ways, making it the definition of Tier 2 (but a strong one). Oh, a Generic Caster can't take Anyspell or Greater Anyspell or any other spell that's only in a domain, they get access to Cleric spells but not all the domains.

Quote
Spirit Shaman is also low tier 1 or tier 2 - casts comparable to a Druid (both versatility and spell selection, changeable daily), but without the awesomeness that is an animal companion or wildshape.

I'd probably put Wu Jen at tier 2 - like a wizard, but with a much reduced spell list.
Best,
David

I really would flip those assignments. Sure the Wu Jen's list is much shorter than a Wizard's but it still gets more than a dozen spells available per level. Their is a rule in the SpC about adding spells to the Wu Jen list, it's 'up to the DM' so there's a lot of variability.

A lot of people assign Spirit Shaman to Tier 1, having played one I don't understand why. Druid spells are nice, sure and the Spirit Shaman gets nine levels of them. But their daily allotment of spells known is HORRIBLE in play, literally the least fun I've ever had with a character. And its class features suck unless you're playing Ghost Busters d20. I've never found a way to cover all my bases like I could with a Sorcerer. My optimization-fu at the time was pretty weak, but even now outside of Spontaneous Summoning/Curing and maybe dipping for domains I'm not confident I could make a Spirit Shaman rock as hard as any other Tier 1s or 2s.

DavidWL

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #151 on: December 21, 2009, 07:56:52 AM »
Is a generic caster better than a Sorcerer? Definitely, but it still has the same limited spells per day and slightly more restrictive multiclassing. Because of its limited SpD it can break the game in only a few set ways, making it the definition of Tier 2 (but a strong one). Oh, a Generic Caster can't take Anyspell or Greater Anyspell or any other spell that's only in a domain, they get access to Cleric spells but not all the domains.

I disagree.  A divine generic caster can take the Initiate to Mystra feat to get the ability to cast in antimagic fields and dead magic zones, as well as getting the anyspell spells.  Also it gets the ability to cast miracle.  Between these 3 spells, it can emulate a vast number of spells, making it almost as versatile as a wizard (but with access to divine spells as well).
Quote
I really would flip those assignments. Sure the Wu Jen's list is much shorter than a Wizard's but it still gets more than a dozen spells available per level. Their is a rule in the SpC about adding spells to the Wu Jen list, it's 'up to the DM' so there's a lot of variability.

Getting more than a dozen per level is a lot like Beguiler or Dread Necromancer ...

However, fair is fair - if the DM is willing to add spells, then I'd put the Wu Jen at (low) tier 1.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #152 on: December 21, 2009, 08:44:54 AM »
Is a generic caster better than a Sorcerer? Definitely, but it still has the same limited spells per day and slightly more restrictive multiclassing. Because of its limited SpD it can break the game in only a few set ways, making it the definition of Tier 2 (but a strong one). Oh, a Generic Caster can't take Anyspell or Greater Anyspell or any other spell that's only in a domain, they get access to Cleric spells but not all the domains.

Agreed.  High Tier 2.  It has the big power spells (it's basically a Sorcerer/Favoured Soul thing) but it lacks the versitility to have the right spell for every situation.  That's Tier 2 through and through.  Stronger than a Sorcerer to be sure, but not in a whole other tier... heck, is a Generic Spellcaster even that much better than a Sorcerer who picks all the strongest Sorc/Wiz spells they can?  I think it's pretty close.

Quote
I'd probably put Wu Jen at tier 2 - like a wizard, but with a much reduced spell list.
Best,
David

Possibly this, but I haven't looked at the Wu Jen list in a while, and whether the DM adds all those extra spells or not really changes things a lot (plus it depends which spells get added).  If the Wu Jen gets tons of spells, it would be low Tier 1 most likely.  With the current spell list it's 2-3 I'd guess, but like I said I haven't looked at the list in a while.

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juton

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #153 on: December 21, 2009, 09:13:42 PM »
Is a generic caster better than a Sorcerer? Definitely, but it still has the same limited spells per day and slightly more restrictive multiclassing. Because of its limited SpD it can break the game in only a few set ways, making it the definition of Tier 2 (but a strong one). Oh, a Generic Caster can't take Anyspell or Greater Anyspell or any other spell that's only in a domain, they get access to Cleric spells but not all the domains.

I disagree.  A divine generic caster can take the Initiate to Mystra feat to get the ability to cast in antimagic fields and dead magic zones, as well as getting the anyspell spells.  Also it gets the ability to cast miracle.  Between these 3 spells, it can emulate a vast number of spells, making it almost as versatile as a wizard (but with access to divine spells as well).

I don't think a divine generic caster can get in to Initiate of Mystra by RAW since it requires Cleric level 3rd. Most DMs would probably allow things like a Favoured Soul to get in, the only possible snag with generic Casters is I don't think they require a god, they learn spells like a Sorcerer, except they can be divine or arcane. So I don't think this would quite be standard for optimization, so it would bump a Tier 2 up to Tier 1 probably.

Stronger than a Sorcerer to be sure, but not in a whole other tier... heck, is a Generic Spellcaster even that much better than a Sorcerer who picks all the strongest Sorc/Wiz spells they can?  I think it's pretty close.

I've made this points to my friends at the table and for some reason they just didn't believe it. If your in doubt just pick about 5 high level spells you'd like a character to have. Most of them are probably Wizard spells, although Heal and Holy Word are nice to have. By RAW a Sorcerer could learn spells not on the Sorcerer/Wizard list, so really the advantage of the generic Caster is its feats, which are awesome.

I also think a generic Expert and Warrior should be both Tier 4, they get to choose from an OK list of class features, and can choose their good save(s) and class skills. Any particular build should be able to do one thing well or a few things adequately.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #154 on: December 21, 2009, 09:57:16 PM »
There's something in dragon magic or races of the dragon that says any god-dependent class (with the cleric list?) qualifies for initiate feats as if it were a cleirc.
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juton

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #155 on: December 21, 2009, 10:04:47 PM »
There's something in dragon magic or races of the dragon that says any god-dependent class (with the cleric list?) qualifies for initiate feats as if it were a cleirc.

Really? I'll have to look that up because I have an Archivist to break. Anyways, I guess it's important if it's works with all divine classes, because a generic Divine Caster doesn't need a god to get their magic.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #156 on: December 22, 2009, 01:05:00 AM »
There's something in dragon magic or races of the dragon that says any god-dependent class (with the cleric list?) qualifies for initiate feats as if it were a cleirc.

Really? I'll have to look that up because I have an Archivist to break. Anyways, I guess it's important if it's works with all divine classes, because a generic Divine Caster doesn't need a god to get their magic.

I think it was dragon magic around page 13 or so.  Also, I think everyone in the forgotten realms needs to declare a god (or some such) - I vaguely remember someone arguing to that effect.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #157 on: December 22, 2009, 02:03:38 AM »
Everyone listened to me this time. To my knowledge, here are most all the separate base classes we are missing. I lack quite a few from dragon mags (I know some of those other alignment paladins are actually not broken). Get cracking people!:
[spoiler]ardent
bardic sage
battle sorcerer
cloistered cleric (obviously still tier 1)
divine bard
divine mind (Somebody said tier 4 but I don't see it on the now reposted OP)
domain wizard (obviously still tier 1)
dragon shaman (first page had no consensus on 4...)
dragonfire adept (Hmm probably 4 also)
druidic avenger (obviously still tier 1)
eidolon
eidoloncer
incarnate
lurk (Definately tier 5. I wish they could actually do something)
mystic (Tier 2, one of my favorites despite the fact that it is a favored soul minus the umph)
noble (Tier 5=weak sauce bard without the spells)
paladin of freedom
paladin of slaughter
paladin of tyranny
psionic artificer (still can break WBL so probably still Tier 1, but I'm not too keen on artificer abuse. I might be missing something)
savage bard
shadowcaster
shugenja
sohei
soulborn
spirit shaman (tier 2 because it tries to do too much and doesn't quite succeed)
thug
totem barbarian [UA kind]
totemist (4?)
urban adept (still tier 4)
urban ranger[/spoiler]

However, fair is fair - if the DM is willing to add spells, then I'd put the Wu Jen at (low) tier 1.
Yes it should be split depending on this.

Otherwise both spirit shaman and Wu Jen should be tier2 (high-ish)

I also think a generic Expert and Warrior should be both Tier 4, they get to choose from an OK list of class features, and can choose their good save(s) and class skills. Any particular build should be able to do one thing well or a few things adequately.
After checking the Generics, I'd say caster=2, expert=4, warrior=4

btw what is the "Rokugan Ninja"?
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

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It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
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juton

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #158 on: December 22, 2009, 03:57:54 AM »
btw what is the "Rokugan Ninja"?

http://l5r.alderac.com/archive/rpg/rokugan_ninja.pdf

It's a got 10d6 sneak attack and Full BAB, only has 2 other class features worth mentioning, Int to initiative and Con Mod * 5 to land speed. It's OK for dipping by a 'Daring Outlaw' Rogue/Swashbuckler does everything it does, but better.

Everyone listened to me this time. To my knowledge, here are most all the separate base classes we are missing. I lack quite a few from dragon mags (I know some of those other alignment paladins are actually not broken). Get cracking people!:

Some of these are just variants of other base classes whose rating won't change much or all.
Quote
[spoiler]
ardent - Tier 2 or Tier 3. Probably very low Tier 2 because of its small powers known but its friendly to dipping and has a good supply of PP.

bardic sage - Tier 3 as Bard. It lets a bard dump Cha but that doesn't really let it be better or worse than a stock bard.

battle sorcerer - Low, low, low Tier 2. Has a lot less versatility than many strong Tier 3 classes. If it wasn't for the fact it could break the game in a very limited number of ways it could even be Tier 4. Gets even worse if you multi-class heavily.

cloistered cleric (obviously still tier 1) - Yup

divine bard - Same as Bardic Sage, except your a dip away from DMM shenanigans.

divine mind (Somebody said tier 4 but I don't see it on the now reposted OP) - Tier 4 or maybe even Tier 5, they have a reputation for suck.

domain wizard (obviously still tier 1)

dragon shaman (first page had no consensus on 4...)
dragonfire adept (Hmm probably 4 also)

druidic avenger (obviously still tier 1) - Its loss of an animal companion hurts it, but probably not enough for a demotion.

eidolon - ?
eidoloncer - ?
incarnate - ?
lurk (Definately tier 5. I wish they could actually do something) - Agreed
mystic (Tier 2, one of my favorites despite the fact that it is a favored soul minus the umph) - I actually prefer these to Favoured Souls, if they can choose a good domain like Travel.

noble (Tier 5=weak sauce bard without the spells)

paladin of freedom
paladin of slaughter
paladin of tyranny - All 3 of these seem to be just carbon copies of the straight Paladin. The only difference is they get a looser code of conduct, but that's not worth much.

psionic artificer (still can break WBL so probably still Tier 1, but I'm not too keen on artificer abuse. I might be missing something)

savage bard - Tier 3 as above.

shadowcaster -?
shugenja - Tier 3, it a less successful Sorcerer, but should be able to work well besides a Beguiler or a Swordsage.
sohei - Tier 5 I think, it like a weaker Paladin.
soulborn- ?
spirit shaman (tier 2 because it tries to do too much and doesn't quite succeed) - Agreed
thug - If this is the Fighter variant it's still Tier 5.
totem barbarian [UA kind] - Doesn't really change the game, Tier 4.
totemist (4?) - ?
urban adept (still tier 4)  - ?
urban ranger - Still the same, Tier 4
[/spoiler]

ninjarabbit

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #159 on: December 22, 2009, 04:20:10 AM »
I'll do the wilder

Normal wilder: High tier 3, knows too few powers to truly be a gamebreaker and wild surge screws you enough without special precautions that you won't go past 2 on it. It does give you 3/4 BAB, 4 skill points/level with a good set of class skills, and will be excellent in the one or two areas you decide to focus on like blasting, save-or-dies, or gishing

Educated wilder: Tier 2, half a step below the psion. Trades a nigh-useless class ability volitial mind for the expanded knowledge feat at levels 5, 9, 13, and 17, partially addressing the wilder's biggest weakness.