Author Topic: Tier System For Classes (Repost)  (Read 454966 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #100 on: August 24, 2009, 02:50:48 AM »
That was my general thoughts.  I don't know enough about the outside sources to know what bumps them up to three.  I seem to remember a few war dances being key to this.  Something about giving all your allies +10d6 energy damage per attack...
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #101 on: August 24, 2009, 03:00:01 AM »
Dragonfire Inspiration.  But actually, a first level Bard with a loud enough instrument can, even in core, give an entire army +1 to hit and damage.  Not bad.  But it's only outside of core when you start throwing in Words of Creation, Masterwork War Drums and, via Dragonfire Inspiration, the concept of Bards stacking bonuses.  Plus, there's some sweet spells and bardic PrCs.

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #102 on: August 24, 2009, 04:11:26 AM »
its actually +12d6 energy damage per attack.

or +12 dmg and +12 to hit, great for power attackers (or better yet, get a magic item that lets you keep up two music effects at once, and give everyone +12 to hit and +12d6[energy]+12 damage on each attack; this way, the leadership feat becomes even more insane! just make every follower a monk with snap kick or something.)
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #103 on: August 24, 2009, 05:24:02 AM »
Morelike TWF rogues iaijutsu factotums.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2009, 10:32:52 AM »
its actually +12d6 energy damage per attack.

or +12 dmg and +12 to hit, great for power attackers (or better yet, get a magic item that lets you keep up two music effects at once, and give everyone +12 to hit and +12d6[energy]+12 damage on each attack; this way, the leadership feat becomes even more insane! just make every follower a monk with snap kick or something.)
Er... what's that item?

Anklebite

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2009, 01:10:09 PM »
can't remember, or I would have said.... not 100% sure there is one, but it sounds like something wizards would have made. maybe harmonizing weapon?
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #106 on: August 30, 2009, 04:07:02 PM »
arg... I'll try elsewhere
« Last Edit: September 06, 2009, 11:48:49 AM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #107 on: August 30, 2009, 06:28:54 PM »
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Defiant

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #108 on: October 05, 2009, 01:26:21 PM »
One thing that I've noticed has worked pretty well for me is persuading people into certain tiers depending on their skill level. So since I am pretty experienced when it comes to D&D, I tend to take a tier 4 class like rogue or marshal. Likewise, new players I suggest them into taking something from the higher tiers like sorcerer. So far this has been my preferred course of action, and it's kept a decent amount of balance.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Tier System for Classes
« Reply #109 on: October 05, 2009, 02:51:45 PM »
One thing that I've noticed has worked pretty well for me is persuading people into certain tiers depending on their skill level. So since I am pretty experienced when it comes to D&D, I tend to take a tier 4 class like rogue or marshal. Likewise, new players I suggest them into taking something from the higher tiers like sorcerer. So far this has been my preferred course of action, and it's kept a decent amount of balance.
This only works if the less experienced players at least listen to some advice. I keep repeating that my first druid was a total dud, and in my current non-epic table group the wizard is clearly sub-par. He constantly requires the DM to be nice to him to survive - and he counts on that, too. He is also the only guy who invested NOTHING into his defences. He has crap HP, crap AC, and his strongest combat option is Phantasmal Killer. He is only useful as a buffer, at least he understands the usefulness of haste. For the fact that he is playing an illusionist, he has never used a single illusion in a creative way. So yeah, Tier 1 doesn't mean much in the hands of the incompetent. Ok, maybe that WAS your argument.

However, I've also seen Tier 4 and 5 characters played with the same degree of incompetence (by a different guy), in which case words are not enough to describe the overwhelming degrees of suck. And when you gave that same player a present of a solid Tier 1 (he was playing a healbot cleric and got entire feat trees, including DMM, for free from the DM), he was the one that killed the group by suddenly professing that he didn't have enough time to read about all these spells and stuff, and was going to quit. Luckily I wasn't in that group.

But yeah, it's good advice as long as you have players at least marginally interested in the game. If you don't, I think it's just better to play a God wizard and buff the newbies through the stratosphere. That way they will feel great while not even noticing the shortcomings of their characters.

AfterCrescent

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #110 on: October 05, 2009, 05:00:20 PM »
I split these two comments and placed them here, in the new Tier thread.

This is the repost for continuation, due to the other one approaching the page limit.
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deuxhero

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #111 on: October 28, 2009, 03:29:01 AM »
What tier would the Rebalanced Paladin be (I know there is a thread on homebrew classes tiers, but that is 4 or so months old and only one page)?

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #112 on: October 28, 2009, 04:51:20 AM »
can't remember, or I would have said.... not 100% sure there is one, but it sounds like something wizards would have made. maybe harmonizing weapon?

Harmonizing weapon does it nicely.

If not available, Lingering song and just sing the other song next turn.

Best way to do it is to craft a item of continuous Harmonize (as the spell, Races of Stone).  You start bardic music as a *move action*.  So you can swift action Insp. Boost, Move Action IC, and then have a standard left to do whatever.  like say activate another bardic music effect... they last 5 rounds after you stop anyway, 10 with lingering song.

Personally, I like bards because of spells like Improvisation, Harmonic Chorus, and Protege.  Such fun things you can do with those....

And there's always the Bard/Virtuoso/Sublime chord HOLY WORD instagib build. 

Practiced Spellcaster + Inspire Greatness (W/song of the heart) = +3 CL
Song of Arcane Power = +4 CL
Harmonic Chorus + Imbue familiar with spell ability = +2 CL

There were several other tricks to add CL, too, i forget them.

But basically, you end up being able to instakill anything lower than your Character Level that isn't Good aligned.

Oh, and let's not forget the Half-Elf bard Racial Sub Level.....

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #113 on: October 28, 2009, 07:12:06 AM »
What tier would the Rebalanced Paladin be (I know there is a thread on homebrew classes tiers, but that is 4 or so months old and only one page)?

I'm afraid I don't often look at rebalanced classes, but isn't it somewhere in the Crusader range?  I'd imagine it's going to be Tier 3 unless it's gotten a bunch of gamebreaking spells or something, or it could be Tier 4 if it didn't go up enough.

@Defiant:  We've been doing the same thing for a while in our group, and it's worked great, though we do often have to pick the spells for the weaker players.  Still, it's pretty hard to go wrong with a Sorcerer who has Glitterdust and Alter Self.  Even a newbie can rock out if they know "Glitterdust it if it might be hostile, Alter Self if I need to have a physical ability."

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #114 on: October 28, 2009, 05:01:39 PM »

@Defiant:  We've been doing the same thing for a while in our group, and it's worked great, though we do often have to pick the spells for the weaker players.  Still, it's pretty hard to go wrong with a Sorcerer who has Glitterdust and Alter Self.  Even a newbie can rock out if they know "Glitterdust it if it might be hostile, Alter Self if I need to have a physical ability."

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Midnight_v

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #115 on: October 28, 2009, 09:37:38 PM »
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JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #116 on: October 29, 2009, 01:56:41 AM »
Hmm, we haven't really had problems with that.  But part of it is we also help make characters for our newer players based on their playstyle.  If they want to just blast everything, Wings of Flurry is what they get!

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #117 on: December 09, 2009, 03:09:42 PM »
I have a question, not really a simple one: Does the Tier system change much for E6 and some house-rules? I need to consider this for a new campaign I might be starting for one of my table groups.

The background is that I want to use Partial Gestalt, and I want to make sure that no really ugly, or substandard, results come from this. Most critically, I don't want Tier 1 or 2 players to bitch at me too much because they can't gestalt.

The most pertinent mechanical differences are:
  • I'm using a 6x6 matrix of rolled ability scores (2d6+6), and players have to pick a line, column or diagonal, forwards/backwards, but IN order, and non-exclusively.
  • People only reach level 6, but after that they can "buy" feats for 5000XP. I've decided I also want them to be able to buy skill points at around 100 to 200XP, up to their normal maxima.
  • Most classes can get their level 7 features, including 1 fourth level spell, maneuver, etc, with the use of one or two feats after reaching level 6.
  • ALL spellcasting classes get their spell levels at 1,3,5,7. I haven't adapted the tables in detail, but it should work out mostly fine.
  • Ritual magic is available for all higher level spells, but takes lots of people who all need to be level 6, and LOTS of time.
  • PrC requirements can be dropped, subject to discussion/approval, most prominently all skill requirements are dropped to 3 ranks. However, I don't really want to use the Tier system for PrCs, so let's leave those out for the moment.
  • Cross-class skill costs are abolished, only the maximums remain. If you take one rank as a class skill then maximum is level+3
  • Some spells are house-ruled, most prominently polymorph, to nerf them while keeping them useful. The nerf is not THAT strong.
  • Everybody (in the entire game world) gets their CON score as bonus HP at level 1. Constructs get the size bonus +12 and undead get either 12 or their Cha score, whichever is higher.
  • Everybody can take a template or race worth +1LA or HD, but does not take a LA, they take a RHD instead of the appropriate type. However, RHD are integrated into the Tier system, so low tier HD can be gestalted. Only Outsider and Dragon HD can't be gestalted, since I wanted to rate them as Tier2, or else everyone would want them. I would like some recommendations here, too, as to the rating of the other HDs.
  • Some feats are changed, but nothing too dramatic.
  • I'm using my own custom E6 feats, not the ones from the original ruleset. Most prominent are the ones that grant a fourth level spell, that grant a 7th (or 8th) level class feature, that grant a +2 inherent bonus, a +1 to BAB up to BAB7, a +1 to a base save up to base save 6, and of course Ritual casting, which you need to eventually cast higher level spells as rituals. In addition, you can take Improved Toughness basically as often as you like above level 6.


So, what, I'm concerned most about is: Am I dealing unfairly with Wizards and Sorcs (and perhaps psions, etc.) if I don't allow them to gestalt at all? I'm not concerned about clerics and druids, because DMM, animal companion and wild shape are plenty. The reason for my concern is that, depending on the level of optimization used, a wizard at level 6 can be quite a dud. Of course they could still take polymorph for their single fourth level spell (I would), but... well... basically that's a capstone ability. And I want a nice and slow progression up to level 6 (via reducing encounter XP), so plenty of time will be spent without it. There are several posts in this thread and the other one that levels 1-3 hardly matter, well, they DO matter here. Please advise.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #118 on: December 09, 2009, 09:29:34 PM »
I have a question, not really a simple one: Does the Tier system change much for E6 and some house-rules? I need to consider this for a new campaign I might be starting for one of my table groups.

The background is that I want to use Partial Gestalt, and I want to make sure that no really ugly, or substandard, results come from this. Most critically, I don't want Tier 1 or 2 players to bitch at me too much because they can't gestalt.

I've never played E6, but I would assume at the very least the Tiers would be closer, simply because the strong Tier classes get exponentially stronger as they level up.  As such, some of the rebalancing things may in fact be overkill if you don't go to higher levels than 6.  Of course, a well made caster can still pull all kinds of silly stuff even by level 6 (Shrink Item and Explosive Runes, Animate Dead, Glitterdust, and so on are all available).

Quote
I'm using a 6x6 matrix of rolled ability scores (2d6+6), and players have to pick a line, column or diagonal, forwards/backwards, but IN order, and non-exclusively.

That's just going to result in good stats.  That'll make MAD classes a bit better (like Paladins and Monks), but the difference won't be significant.

Quote
People only reach level 6, but after that they can "buy" feats for 5000XP. I've decided I also want them to be able to buy skill points at around 100 to 200XP, up to their normal maxima.

That actually helps casters more and makes Fighters pretty pointless.  Melees usually have enough feats (and a Fighter dip can ensure they get enough), with the possible exception of trippers.  But once you have Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper, what do you really need?  Meanwhile, having more item crafting abilities and more metamagic feats is pretty much always handy.

Quote
Most classes can get their level 7 features, including 1 fourth level spell, maneuver, etc, with the use of one or two feats after reaching level 6.

Obviously, this makes casters stronger.  So, that's going to reenforce the Tiers.

Quote
ALL spellcasting classes get their spell levels at 1,3,5,7. I haven't adapted the tables in detail, but it should work out mostly fine.

Whoa, that should make Bards pop up a good bit, which you should be sure to factor in.  If Factotums get this as well, they'd also go up a ton.  Also, be concerned if your group is into powergaming Sorcerer Kobolds... if they're not you're fine.  It's only if they want to bust out the Venerable Loredrake Dragonwrought Half Fey Desert Kobold (+3 Sorcerer levels!) that you're going to be in pain, but let's assume you won't allow that anyway.

Quote
]Ritual magic is available for all higher level spells, but takes lots of people who all need to be level 6, and LOTS of time.

No effect on intraparty class balance, as they all do it together.

Quote
]PrC requirements can be dropped, subject to discussion/approval, most prominently all skill requirements are dropped to 3 ranks. However, I don't really want to use the Tier system for PrCs, so let's leave those out for the moment.

Just watch out for Shadowcraft Mages, especially with your feat rule!  Also Tainted Sorcerers/Anima Mages.

Quote
Cross-class skill costs are abolished, only the maximums remain. If you take one rank as a class skill then maximum is level+3

This would make PrCing easier if you hadn't already messed with that.  Otherwise, not a serious balance issue.

Quote
Some spells are house-ruled, most prominently polymorph, to nerf them while keeping them useful. The nerf is not THAT strong.

So, casters still strong (there are plenty of spells to nerf!).

Quote
Everybody (in the entire game world) gets their CON score as bonus HP at level 1. Constructs get the size bonus +12 and undead get either 12 or their Cha score, whichever is higher.

Handy, but not a significant effect on class balance.

Quote
Everybody can take a template or race worth +1LA or HD, but does not take a LA, they take a RHD instead of the appropriate type. However, RHD are integrated into the Tier system, so low tier HD can be gestalted. Only Outsider and Dragon HD can't be gestalted, since I wanted to rate them as Tier2, or else everyone would want them. I would like some recommendations here, too, as to the rating of the other HDs.

This could actually boost melees significantly, as there are far better templates for melees.  Half Minotaur and Mineral Warrior are big ones, along with Lolth Touched.  I wouldn't rank Outsider or Dragon HD as Tier 2 (they're more like T3-4, they have good numbers but that's about it).  So, there could be a big effect here.

I think casters will still be strong enough in this game.  Other than the LA/HD thing, you really haven't given much to melees, and the fact that 4th level spells are still available (Polymorph, Animate Dead for Wizards, etc) means a creative spellcaster can still do stuff a melee can't dream of.  And you've provided some potent boosts to casters, most notably the easy PrCs, the higher level spells, and the effectively endless (in the long run) feats.  I think some players may whine, but at the end of the day I'd rather have an Archivist 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 1/Tainted Sorcerer 1 than a Fighter 6//Rogue 6.  The only big one I'd watch out for is Bards... they probably jump up a Tier due to getting their spells at the same rate as Sorcerers (though that's not a gaurentee, there are far fewer nasty Bard spells even at the same level).  Paladins getting faster spell advancement could be nasty too.

Anyway, that's my off the cuff answer. 

TLDR?  Should work fine.

JaronK

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Re: Tier System For Classes (Repost)
« Reply #119 on: December 09, 2009, 10:35:16 PM »
I wouldn't rank Outsider or Dragon HD as Tier 2 (they're more like T3-4, they have good numbers but that's about it).

They also come with a series of immunities, resistances, and abilities by default of being that race. They also have a lot of support (Similar to bards, who were made significantly more powerful by the fact that EVERY supplement that came out after PHB had a lot of options for bards). Dragons especially have a lot of simple but powerful support options while outsiders have very advanced options available to them.

The biggest thing though is basic free things that seriously increase your resilience, depending on how Brainpeircing runs it. If you get that full 2 to a good save every time you multiclass, your dragon or outsider HD is a free +2 to all saves (Significant especially at lower levels, which is when templates and monstrous races appear most powerful anyhow.) in addition to potentially powerful ability bonuses (which are also far more impressive at lower levels).

I play mostly lower level campaigns, so much so that it's the only area I feel qualified to optimize. It also appears I'm semi-unique in this, because I see a lot of builds laid out that survive their lower levels purely on the backs of their less far-seeing colleagues.

All that being said, I don't think they're as low as Tier 4, but without expanding upon them I wouldn't say they're Tier 2. However, as far as I can tell the Tiers are all about potential, so they could very well be tier 2.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 10:37:29 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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