Author Topic: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system  (Read 30524 times)

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RobbyPants

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2009, 12:41:12 PM »
(perhaps the difference of the highest level you can cast and the level of the at-will spell).

Which was EXACTLY what I wrote in the other post...
Almost.  CL =/= Spell level.

In the example I gave about someone who can cast 5th level spells casting Magic Missle, he would have a caster level of 9, but the spell's level (the variable I care about) is 5.  So we had similar, yet slightly different ideas.
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dman11235

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2009, 02:01:19 PM »
I personally don't think that there should be any daily powers.  They end up cause balance head aches, because there is a dichotomy of under and overpowered, and so little room in the middle it might not as well be there.  The way you described them bkdubs they would all be underpowered, due to the super-situational characteristic that they would have.

I feel that if it's too powerful to be anything but daily, it should be ritual level.  And the other things you have access to are encounters and at wills.  Perhaps you could do a recharge system based on the individual merits of the spell, a low level encounter would have a recharge of one round (every other round you could use it), and then a more powerful one would be on the order of minutes, or even an hour if it's really powerful.  Not sure if this would be viable in a turn based game like this.  The spell points system could work in here, as long as there's a recharge for it.  One idea that I'm borrowing from Populous is to have each spell require a certain amount of energy to cast, and that energy is recharged over time.  You can choose which spells to charge, and if you have more than one spell charging at a time, they charge slower, and if you're charging only a few spells, they charge faster.  So something like you charge spells at a rate of 1 point/CL/minute, and level 1 spells require 1 point, and level 9 spells require 17 points.  Maybe it's /combat round, and /minute ooc.  Or something else.

Anyways, I really think we should eliminate daily powers from ALL class features, and leave them to the cheap item dealy that they do in the MiC.
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bkdubs123

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2009, 02:03:13 PM »
At-wills could augment for free.  This could either be a full augment, or a partial augment (perhaps the difference of the highest level you can cast and the level of the at-will spell).

An example could be that if you can cast 5th level spells and you cast Magic Missle, you get 4 free points to augment (5 - 1 = 4), so you cast it at 5th level for free.

If your 1st level At-Will spells are all auto-augmented to the highest level of At-Will spells you have, what's the point in having levels with At-Wills?

bkdubs123

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2009, 02:07:06 PM »
I personally don't think that there should be any daily powers.  They end up cause balance head aches, because there is a dichotomy of under and overpowered, and so little room in the middle it might not as well be there.  The way you described them bkdubs they would all be underpowered, due to the super-situational characteristic that they would have.

I wasn't the person that described daily powers as "super-situational." If I were in charge of a system with daily powers that's not at all what I'd do with them. Color Spray. That's a Daily Power (and probably too powerful at 1st level).

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Anyways, I really think we should eliminate daily powers from ALL class features, and leave them to the cheap item dealy that they do in the MiC.

This isn't necessarily a bad idea.

dman11235

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2009, 02:28:57 PM »
Heh, sorry bout that.  I took the usernames and switched them with Ejo.

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If your 1st level At-Will spells are all auto-augmented to the highest level of At-Will spells you have, what's the point in having levels with At-Wills?

Methinks it's for when you have access to them.  Also, the lower level at wills will be able to be augmented more than the higher-level ones.  So basically you'd have at any level all your at-wills at the same level (highest you can cast), but the lower level ones you'd have more augments tied to (maximized, empowered magic missile vs a regular orb of acid, for instance, would be the same level, but the MM has augments where as the orb does not).
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RobbyPants

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2009, 02:34:08 PM »
If your 1st level At-Will spells are all auto-augmented to the highest level of At-Will spells you have, what's the point in having levels with At-Wills?
It depends on how they augment/scale.  If a 1st level spell augmented with 4SP is truely as good as a 3rd level spell, then you're right.  It just seems that in my experience, things that augment frequently aren't as good as a higher level spell/power for the same cost.
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dither

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2009, 03:03:08 PM »
One thing that always irked me, that we have to fix... why aren't healing spells in necromancy? Negative and positive energy should operate on the same principles, imho.

Heal and harm spells were both in Necromancy (they were two sides of the same spell, IIRC) in 2nd Edition.

WotC had this weird "necromancy and creating undead is evil" this and had to come up with some BS to make healing spells conjuration, so they wouldn't be associated with evil and death.

edit: I like the idea of going with /will and /encounter -type powers and dropping "dailies" entirely. The idea of incantations being able to be performed by anyone with the right skills makes lots of sense from a mythical standpoint, with spellcasters just getting some synergy bonuses and maybe getting some automatic successes?

Maybe, making the rituals/incantations in the vein of skill challenges where some characters are needed to gather ingredients/supplies, intone mystical nonsense words, fetch sacrifices, do some rain-dancing, etc. in order to complete the ritual would be cool. Depending on how complex the incantations are, there would be different results based on the number of successes achieved.

For example, with 5:3 successes, the spell has the "average" results, assuming that the casters are going to botch some rolls or fudge the ingredients and improvise. With 7:1 successes, the incantation is "Super-effective!" With 3:5 successes, the incantation might fail or have other undesirable results, but the characters can attempt again in only half (non-stacking) the previous time (basically they manage to "salvage" some of their previous rolls). At only 1:7 successes, you get to roll on a hypothetical "incantation mishap" table for nasty results (or they may be specific to each incantation?).

edit 2: I kind of like the idea that simpler rituals would require fewer successes, and that it would be possible to complete a ritual with only 1:7 successes if the ritual is like, 8 levels lower than the party. Every ritual would require roughly the same number of dice rolls, but the players only have a rough idea of how well they're doing until the DM unveils that though they basically slapped everything together at the last moment and pulled some stuff out of their ass (i.e. failed most of the rolls) they still managed to make a mud hut out of twigs and straw, because only one ACTUAL success was needed. Cue the victory music.

edit 3: I look at it like this:
A ritual higher than your level requires 95-100% successes on all rolls.
A ritual of your level should require a minimum of 2 more successes than failures to succeed.
A ritual lower than your level requires a minimum of X successes, but that number can be lower than the number of fails.

In this sense, a failure doesn't strictly count AGAINST you, it merely indicates a lack of success.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 03:17:41 PM by dither »
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Bauglir

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2009, 07:57:28 PM »
Oh, also, UMD needs to die in a fire. Or it needs better limitations on what it can do. Rituals should probably be based on Spellcraft, Knowledges (the less commonly used the better), and other skills as appropriate to the ritual (Find the Path, for instance, might require a Survival check in there somewhere). More powerful rituals, I think should require multiple successes on multiple skills. Here's an idea, based on granting access to rituals by taking a feat:

Ritual Leader
Prerequisites: Spellcraft 5 ranks and Int, Wis, or Cha 13
Benefits: You can lead rituals. To do so, you must learn the appropriate incantation, which requires finding a recorded copy in some form and a DC 20 Spellcraft check, +2 per level of the ritual. Once this is done, you can perform the ritual once per day so long as you have the appropriate components. If you still have the copy of the incantation, you gain a +2 bonus on all relevant skill checks for successfully completing the ritual. At the fastest, rituals take 10 minutes to complete, but a more common completion time is 1 hour. You can know up to one ritual per two character levels (minimum 1) at any given time; any additional rituals require you to forget one you know. A character can benefit from only one ritual per two character levels (minimum 1) at any given time, due to the difficulty of containing such power within a single frame; only rituals currently granting their benefit count toward this limit, and instantaneous rituals never count toward it.
Special: Any willing creature can participate in the ritual with you, allowing it to make any relevant skill checks for you if you wish. However, due to the difficulty of dividing the magical power of the incantation among multiple creatures in this way, each additional participant applies a -4 penalty to all skill checks relevant to completing the ritual. Creatures benefiting from the ritual are not necessarily participants, although they can be.
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bkdubs123

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2009, 08:53:07 PM »
Hmm, so it seems like people want to be entirely rid of Daily Spells even if players have a choice of whether or not to take them. :( I kinda liked that model. Guess that's what I get for jumping the gun.

Okay, so then we want a set up that provides an array of At-Will and Encounter spells. Rituals are there to take care of overpowered/long duration spell effects. Spells can be a bit downgraded in power for those that may have a power more appropriate for daily spell slots, and those that were a bit under par can be very appropriate to encounter level power.

Now, do we want a set up that grants at-wills and encounters simultaneously or one that allows for some choice in what quantity of each the player wants? Do we still want to use Spell Points in this set up? How do we want to handle At-Will spell levels?

4E At-Wills stay at first level, and just get a single upgrade at 21st level. I'd be fine with that way of dealing with it, and using levels only for encounter spells. Especially if At-Wills get a couple "automatic augments" over the levels.

AlterFrom

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #29 on: August 06, 2009, 09:09:39 PM »
Having variable amounts of At-Wills and Encounters allows for much larger amounts of customization, but the considerably increased amounts of possible spell selections (and therefore interactions) makes it harder to control balance in the system.

Rewriting some (or several) spells for the new system allows a base-level method for controlling possibly abusive combos even before the system itself is implemented, but I still prefer the idea of set numbers of At-Wills and Encounters per class. A wizard might have more Encounter spells than a Sorcerer (who in turn has more At-Wills). This strict limitation method gives a definite cap/expression for how many abilities a given caster has at any one time; a separate number of "known" spells would still allow for per-caster individualization.

When you say "automatic augment," do you mean that every so many levels the effect of the At-Will spells receive an increase in effectiveness and/or utility? Just to clarify.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 09:12:00 PM by AlterFrom »
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dither

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2009, 09:11:02 PM »
Rituals are there to take care of overpowered/long duration spell effects. Spells can be a bit downgraded in power for those that may have a power more appropriate for daily spell slots, and those that were a bit under par can be very appropriate to encounter level power.

I can imagine Wish as requiring, like, a 9-day ritual. Can you imagine how grueling a ritual like that would be? I imagine half the checks would be Endurance-based just to stay conscious and fast and crap like that. A ritual like Atonement would have similar requirements such as having the petitioning character perform a vigil while fasting and make successive Endurance and Religion checks. In the case of each one incantation, the fluff will probably be intrinsic to the required checks.

...

Anyway, my thoughts on daily vs. encounter powers. basically, if an ability is so powerful that it can only be used once a day, what's the point of having it show up in combat? I think it would make a lot more sense to have most of combat based on blasting away with /will powers and mixing it up with /encounter powers, maybe burning "healing surges" (I prefer to think of them as "Limit Breaks") to get /encounter powers back, or maybe using those selfsame "Limit Breaks" to boost one's /At Will powers.

...

I still prefer the idea of set numbers of At-Wills and Encounters per class. A wizard might have more Encounter spells than a Sorcerer (who in turn has more At-Wills). This strict limitation method gives a definite cap/expression for how many abilities a given caster has at any one time; a separate number of "known" spells would still allow for per-caster individualization.

+1.

...

edit: I also had this idea about possibly defining all the "standard status effects" ahead of time and then dividing them up amongst the various classes once the conditions have been balanced against each other. For example, rogues may cause "silence" by stabbing people in the throat, which hinders spellcasting ... fighters might "blind" which hinders precision-based damage, screwing rogues, sorcerers might "set people on fire" which screws everyone but pit fiends, who find it sexually pleasing, etc.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 09:13:45 PM by dither »
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EjoThims

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2009, 06:05:44 AM »
The difference would be the drain on Spell Points.

I really hate spell points. Because then you need points + recharge and/or points + cooldown to even get back to not being a daily resource.

You also have to balance cost w/ augment cost with a of spells a lot more detailed than you do simply a list.

As far as Rituals go, I definitely agree with keeping them done the way Incantations are presented in Unearthed Arcana, which is really very similar to 4E's Rituals, especially in the fact that anyone with relevant skill ranks can do them. Knowledge of a specific ritual can be bought as a book, or a character can take the Ritual Caster feat to learn multiple Rituals as he gains levels. In 4E, the Wizard gains Ritual Caster as a bonus feat, and that seems to work just fine

Yea, I think that things like Identify, Teleport, etc should work like this.

hotomy of under and overpowered, and so little room in the middle it might not as well be there.  The way you described them EjoThims they would all be underpowered, due to the super-situational characteristic that they would have.

Fixt. Also, the point of the dailies would be to fill that super situational niche. All the bread and butter spells would be at will or per encounter, but your summons and forcecages and prismatic walls and such would be impressive and powerful, but not something you could do continuously, while still not being appropriate to make take the time of a ritual.

Now, do we want a set up that grants at-wills and encounters simultaneously or one that allows for some choice in what quantity of each the player wants? Do we still want to use Spell Points in this set up? How do we want to handle At-Will spell levels?

Like a Warlock with multiple separate tracks, but broken up into the spell levels. As you progress further down each track, you get to the start of the next track.

I think an example would be best, though I won't pretend specific numbers are balanced or recommended.

You maybe have 15 at wills known, learning 4 at level 1, and increasing by 1 every two levels, with the next level of spells opening up at the same time (up to 10th level AW spells at level 20). Each level, you can retrain one of your at will powers into anything else you have access to (letting you have 2-3 of your highest level of at will spells).

You start with 1 known encounter power, 1/encounter. At every third level, you learn a new encounter power at 1/encounter, and gain a use each of your others, with the next level of spells opening up at the same time (up to 8th level ENC spells at level 19). You can know up to 3 encounter powers. When one would get four uses (level 10), you lose it (but gain another at 1/encounter), and all the ENC spells of that level go onto the AE list at the highest AW level you have access to.

So, at level character 10, all the 1st level ENC spells would appear on the 5th level AW list, and you could retrain one of your AW spells into one of them.

I think dailies should also be a part of this, rotating first into the ENC list, and then the AW. I like the option of dailies be cause of how I think they should be laid out; kind of the opposite of a Sorceror. You know 2-3 times as many dailies as you have dailies to cast, and they are all cast from the same pool, divided up on the fly into however you see appropriate.

Before the thought eludes me - perhaps this can be handled uniformly for once? I'm thinking of doing it Psion-style with 'several' disciplines. If you picked the specific discipline, you get the spell a level early. Depending on how many disciplines there are, it would be feasible to pick 1-3 (perhaps depending on class?). Possible disciplines are of course the spell schools, but could be arranged upon other lines.

It would certainly be possible to combine all spellcasting archetypes into different paths through the same spellcaster, with each different path having spells at slightly different levels and possibly different bonuses to different spells. And you could group them by similar categories within each archetype.

But I think at that point, you might as well divide the archetypes into different base classes.  :lmao

dither

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2009, 01:15:18 PM »
I really hate spell points. Because then you need points + recharge and/or points + cooldown to even get back to not being a daily resource.

Plus fucking one. Daily resources are a pain in the ass. Of course, I also hate paying for consumable items in a tabletop game. I mean, sure, you can have a video game balance an item economy for you, but in a tabletop game, I seriously don't want to have to go out and buy potions and scrolls and shit I can't reuse.


Like a Warlock with multiple separate tracks, but broken up into the spell levels. As you progress further down each track, you get to the start of the next track.

I kinda like this idea. Also, I like 4e's idea of equating "spell level" with "character level." It's really hard to explain to a n00b the differences between 2nd-level paladin spells and 2nd-level cleric spells and 2nd-level bard spells, which each class gets AT A DIFFERENT CHARACTER LEVEL. It's actually pretty retarded, really. I like how 4e says multi-classing "power swap" feats let you pick powers of X level, and that in most cases, you can choose powers of an X level lower than your main class.

Now, in essence, the spell levels don't "change," but instead you call a 3rd-level wizard spell (which you get at wizard 5) a 5th-level wizard spell. At 17th-level, when you would get "9th-level wizard spells," you instead pick up "17th level wizard spells," because the level of the spell is the same as the level you actually get the spell.


You maybe have 15 at wills known, learning 4 at level 1, and increasing by 1 every two levels, with the next level of spells opening up at the same time. Each level, you can retrain one of your at will powers into anything else you have access to. [snip]

edit: I also think it's a good idea to keep the number of /will and /encounter powers about even. You know, by 20th level, it should 7:3, 4:6, or 5:5. I mean, you might be able to swap them out on a day-to-day basis (or even with a short break like in ToB), so you could KNOW, like 15 /will powers, but only have access to, between 3-6 of them at a time.

Ultimately, it's up to your own judgment as to how much of your power you gamble on one-shot powers versus reusable powers (though you should certainly never have fewer than 2 /will powers at a time).

Before the thought eludes me - perhaps this can be handled uniformly for once? I'm thinking of doing it Psion-style with 'several' disciplines. If you picked the specific discipline, you get the spell a level early. Depending on how many disciplines there are, it would be feasible to pick 1-3 (perhaps depending on class?). Possible disciplines are of course the spell schools, but could be arranged upon other lines.

I think it'd be cool if each class had a less "generic fantasy" name to it, and was created with like, three different builds in mind ... two of a primary "role" or whatever our equivalent is, and one with whatever secondary role the class might have as dominant. Then the player is free to mix in a variety of powers of either the two "primary" disciplines of the class and a little of the "secondary" discipline, or go full-bore with the "secondary" discipline. I say screw open-ended class names like "wizard," and stick with class names that are more descriptive of what the class actually DOES. I mean, what does a "barbarian" do? "Barbers?" Same thing with a wizard? He practices wizardry?

Names like "evoker/invoker" are still awfully vague, but necromancer, illusionist, and enchanter are time-honored classics. Necromancers commune with the dead to learn their secrets (and in some circles, raise the dead as well -- common enough to displace their original function). Illusionists are wily spellcasters who use cunning glamers to confuse and mislead foes. etc.


--dither
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 01:28:39 PM by dither »
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veekie

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2009, 03:29:53 PM »
Alright, I'm a little late on this dealy, but heres my 2cp on the concept, spoilered so it doesn't break whatever track you guys are on right now :P :
[spoiler]
I had this idea that was essentially, psionics augment with recharge.
Basically, you have three pools of points, the first pool refills every round, the second each encounter, and the third per day. Now, while this is awfully similar to 4e's system,

I figure you could simply design all the 'root' spells such that they should require the most of the 'per round' pool to cast to their level appropriate effect, with the second pool offering access to a different list of augmentation options(encounter changing, or canceling said encounter changing effects, potent defenses), and the third yet another(save or die effects, reversals of such, particularly defenses that are proof against pretty much anything level appropriate(for the round of course)).

Add to this, a means of dealing with extended duration effects, these effects simply cost points appropriate to their duration, to produce an effect that lasts from rounds to minutes requires Encounter points, to produce one that lasts a day requires Daily points, per round points can't have durations beyond 1d4 rounds or instantaneous(that is to say, creating an unsustained magical effect), as a design guideline. And for semi permanent effects, such as Mage Armor, etc, these hog the their allotment from the Daily points until dismissed or dispelled. If you wish to abolish magic item christmas trees, just have it so that these items also take their allotment out of your points, you can only fuel so many(barring Artifacts, which are well, plot devices and hardly for sale).

To put it another way, the first pool might fuel an xd4 shocking grasp, but augmented with the second pool, the shocking grasp now adds a -1/5 augment points penalty to the target's AC for 1d4 rounds as well and with the third, the third might daze, stun or even kill the target.
Likewise, a Shield spell provides the appropriate AC/save bonus for a round as an immediate action, when powered by the first pool. When augmented with the second pool, it then lasts more rounds, adds a bonus to saves and/or adds energy resistance. When augmented with the third pool, it becomes a Fire Shield effect on top of whatever else the augments bought.
Cures heal the damage with the first pool, add temporary hit points or removes lesser debuffs(e.g fatigue) with the second and revivify is a rather expensive use of the third.

Point expenditure is capped by the sum of the character levels, or derivatives of that, while pool sizes are dependent upon power sources(arcane, divine, mental, etc) of the particular class levels(or ToB's class + 1/2 others) and an ability score(which I may note, should be distinct from the attack roll ability score for any particular class). This allows most characters to function just fine with multiclassing, though they'd have less stamina with a particular aspect, and a reduced access to new powers and effects. I'd personally have preferred a universalised power point pool, but so far it seems most people I asked prefer differentiation from the various 'fuel tanks'.

Those with larger pools would be more able to split their efforts between active defenses, utils and offense, while offensive effects(battlefield control, buffing, debuffing and summoning counted here) are inherently limited by hogging the standard or full round actions, swifts and frees should be primarily defensive in nature(active defensive spells, de-debuffing(aka healing)), with movement(teleportation, whatever utility effects) taking the move actions.

What spells/powers are available for these points to be spent on, however, depends upon the particular classes. Certain classes may provide augmentation option access automatically with level, though with fewer unique base powers than classes which require you to buy options.

I'd also like to see a non-compulsory, but effective equipment foci for them, well, that or give the nonmagicals some candy with their own 'spell' access, by sinking their pools into equipment powering(disclaimer, this works better if all classes shared a universal point pool). Flaming sword? Sure, just sink your /encounter pool into it for a one round flaming attack. Doing the same thing with a caster and fireball wands works too.

Restricting access to certain spell types(delaying their accessibility a couple o levels) or reducing their point efficiency, while not making them exclusive entirely, should be the way to go with availability.
[/spoiler]
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"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
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To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

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EjoThims

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #34 on: August 08, 2009, 04:31:38 AM »
Ultimately, it's up to your own judgment as to how much of your power you gamble on one-shot powers versus reusable powers (though you should certainly never have fewer than 2 /will powers at a time).

I think that making people choose between and encounter and an at will when they learn a new spell is not something that should be encouraged. Each track should be separate entirely, set of at wills known and set of encounters known that progress separately (though the encounters roll over into the at will as they become obsolete).

dman11235

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2009, 09:19:18 AM »
I don't like the idea of specific base classes.  If you're using the same mechanics from necromancer to enchanter to illusionist, why not make it the same base class?  Cuts the clutter, reduces the chance of unexpected balance problems, you can have a generalist, and you can have a PrC for each discipline if you wanted.  Base classes should be general in terms of what they accomplish.  You aren't high level at the beginning, so you really don't have all that much of a name for yourself as one of the disciplines, but you still call yourself one.  The PrC will let you embody your chosen discipline (if you choose one) more completely than you could with the base class cause that's what they are there for.  They help you to narrow down your class abilities, and grant new abilities that help explore your character concept more and better than you would be able to straight base class (unless your concept was that straight base class, of course).

+1 on that last post Ejo.

finally got this post off.....only took me a whole day for internet to come back....
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veekie

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2009, 03:30:12 PM »
No opinions on my idea?
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

dman11235

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2009, 01:06:14 AM »
Sorry, was too busy making sure my post actually got posted.  I typed up that post well before you posted, and I had to wait until I had internet again to actually get it up there.

A couple years ago I thought up a magic system kinda unique, but it's got some things in common with your system.  They aren't all that apparent, so I'll explain myself after I briefly describe my system.

Basically, you have a group of 4-8 base spells.  These spells are minor effects that can be used at will.  Something on the order of 1d6 energy damage.  Class levels grant you various ways to augment these (and maybe feats too, but it would be a slower rate), ranging from more damage to unique usages for them (such as sheathing yourself in the energy a la Fire Shield).  To power the augments, you have a pool of daily augment points.  Through class levels, you get free augments, so basically by level 20 you'd be able to augment a seed by +6 for free (just under Eldritch Blast).

The similarity is that you have a pool that refreshes /round, which is essentially at will.  That pool relates to the at will+free augment aspect of my system.  I don't have a /encounter equivalent though.

I'll look into it more when I have more time/the internet isn't stupid.

PREEDIT:

Yay!  I don't have internet!  It's just after 11 PM when I'm trying to post this, let's see how long it takes....that was fast.  30 seconds.
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veekie

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2009, 08:24:50 AM »
Well, the rationale was that the 'daily' points were the edge that PC's have against otherwise equally matched PCs and monsters. I reckon most monsters(barring boss types) wouldn't have them, so PCs can spend them to 'get out of jail free' in the event of a bad crit, or something.

Not to mention it's easier to gauge resources on a per encounter basis, and leave the daily materials to things that'd nudge fights so that the players win, but not by a massive margin.
The mind transcends the body.
It's also a little cold because of that.
Please get it a blanket.

I wish I could read your mind,
I can barely read mine.

"Skynet begins to learn at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. Eastern time, August 29th. At 2:15, it begins rolling up characters."

[spoiler]
"Just what do you think the moon up in the sky is? Everyone sees that big, round shiny thing and thinks there must be something round up there, right? That's just silly. The truth is much more awesome than that. You can almost never see the real Moon, and its appearance is death to humans. You can only see the Moon when it's reflected in things. And the things it reflects in, like water or glass, can all be broken, right? Since the moon you see in the sky is just being reflected in the heavens, if you tear open the heavens it's easy to break it~"
-Ibuki Suika, on overkill

To sumbolaion diakoneto moi, basilisk ouranionon.
Epigenentheto, apoleia keraune hos timeis pteirei.
Hekatonkatis kai khiliakis astrapsato.
Khiliarkhou Astrape!
[/spoiler]

There is no higher price than 'free'.

"I won't die. I've been ordered not to die."

bkdubs123

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #39 on: August 10, 2009, 05:59:26 PM »
Okay, I haven't been around for a while, because I've been on vacation.

Anyway, right now the feeling I'm getting from people, seemingly contrary to my initial analysis, is that Spell Points are out the window. Daily spells are mostly being frowned on, but some are still pushing for them (I'd prefer to still have them, if only at the option of the player).

People don't like my idea of choosing between At-Will/ENC/Daily spells known, but I saw that Veekie mentioned something about readying spells, a la ToB, and similar to what I did with Spellcaster's Sanctum, however he also threw in the idea that when a player readies spells they can choose one number from their full repertoire of At-Will/ENC/Dailies, and ready that number, not a separate number for each, just one. So if the player knows 5 At-Wills, 5 Encounters, 5 Dailies, but can only ready 7 spells at a time, perhaps with 15 minutes or 1 hour time for readying, they can ready as many of their At-Wills/ENCs/Dailies as they want. I really like that idea, personally.

If we got rid of Spell Points we would probably have no problems with At-Wills and spell levels. Though I did like the possibilities psionics-like augmentation presented, it certainly may be simpler to loose them.