Author Topic: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system  (Read 30527 times)

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shiningphoenix

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #160 on: August 17, 2009, 09:49:30 PM »
With regards to seeds:
  I was imagining something like epic spells, except without having to spend large amounts of time, money, and experience points researching them.
  Actually, now that I think about it, there seems to be little difference on our end between using a seed-based system ourselves to create a library of fixed spells for the system, and having the expectation be that people create their own spells from the seeds but creating a bunch of examples.
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Bauglir

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #161 on: August 18, 2009, 02:10:13 AM »
Hm, just to chime in on the seeds/augment idea, my personal opinion is that it would a great system for a PBP, where there's more time available to consider your options, but it's too complicated for tabletop play. I prefer a psionics-esque system of base spell, each one has one or two specific augments that are relatively simple and scale off to infinity. The main reason is that I LIKE the ability for low-level choices to remain valid at high levels, and I like the ability to tailor individual actions to situations. I think a system like this makes it easier to do that quickly, because even if you need to know more information overall, it's easier to work with it because there are fewer combinations possible and you need to know less for each individual action.

As far as conditions go, if we're still talking about that here, I want to suggest that immunities are a bad idea, for every case but one: if a target simply lacks the thing that is affected, an immunity is valid. A mindless undead should be immune to charm, most oozes should be immune to tripping, or most plants should be immune to traditional blinding. I mean, dividing it up based on means of attack is just fine, it can work either way (and there's a definite appeal to doing it that way), I just mean that, generally, "immunity" should be handled by large bonuses against such effects. So a sufficiently kickass enchanter can still charm that vampire. It's just really, really hard. Part of this involves making it so that spellcasters don't have access to effects that simply win, which would render bonuses a moot point. Add saves for partial effect to everything possible, and if necessary give "immune" creatures an evasion-like ability that lets them ignore the "partial" on a successful save, maybe.
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bkdubs123

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #162 on: August 18, 2009, 03:48:23 AM »
Okay, I'd like to get some things straight in here, because I keep thinking I have things straight, but then I get lost again. Can everyone involved please weigh in on what they want out of this system? Please, simply vote. We can get to explaining ourselves when we know how the majority rules, because I want to produce a system that the majority is happy with, not one that I'm simply happy with.

At-Will Spells? Yes or No.

Encounter Spells? Yes or No (I think this is a unanimous Yes, but we'll see).

Daily Spells? Yes or No.

Spell Points? Yes or No.

Rituals that aren't tailor-made to be used by spellcasters? Yes or No.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 09:53:29 AM by bkdubs123 »

bkdubs123

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #163 on: August 18, 2009, 09:52:37 AM »
Aha, I just had a thought for how caster level works to improve spellcasting, or at least one good way: As your caster level improves, the conditions you bestow improve. For example:

Slowed: The effected creature's speed is reduced by half and it takes a penalty to AC and attack rolls equal to -1, -1/five caster levels you possess.

Frightened: The effected creature must keep a distance of at least double its speed from the caster during its turns and takes a penalty to saving throws, AC, skill and ability checks equal to -1, -1/five caster levels you possess.

Distracted: (a la Dither) The effected creature is unable to use abilities that require Concentration, and all of its actions have a 10% chance to fail, +10%/five caster levels you possess.

Of course, that would mean that caster level has no effect on spells that do not bestow conditions, and also that conditions bestowed by creatures without a caster level always suck. I can think of a few ways around that second one, but none that are really perfect. Anyway, thoughts? One cool thing about the idea is that "level appropriate" conditions are built in, and another is that it can really help to keep the number of conditions on our list down considerably.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 09:56:42 AM by bkdubs123 »

Bauglir

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #164 on: August 18, 2009, 11:42:13 AM »
Quote
At-Will Spells? Yes or No.

Encounter Spells? Yes or No (I think this is a unanimous Yes, but we'll see).

Daily Spells? Yes or No.

Spell Points? Yes or No.

Rituals that aren't tailor-made to be used by spellcasters? Yes or No.

Yes, Sorta, Sorta, Yes, Yes.

The sortas are that I'm thinking of a daily allotment of points that can be partially refreshed by taking some amount of time to rest. Perhaps with some items or feats that grant a one-time faster refreshment before being consumed, for those dramatic situations where resting is impossible from a character motivation standpoint.
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dman11235

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #165 on: August 18, 2009, 01:02:53 PM »
Yea! Some people are back in the keeping Daily spells camp! One of the biggest reasons I'm for Daily spells is that at-will healing is just a pain in the ass. Yes, I know it is very easy to do within the core rules as they are written. That doesn't make it any less of a pain in the ass. The ability of 4E to have a power called Cure Critical Wounds at Daily, and grant the target healing as though they spent 3 healing surges, but without spending those surges, is great (IMO). Per encounter healing, while not as bad as at-will, can also still be a pain in the ass if not carefully watched (as the Crusader).

Note that I am not in favor of daily spells.  Only daily points.  There's a BIG difference.

Also, I'm in favor of at-will healing.  At least, as far as normal rules go.  Well, no, really, I'm just in favor of at will healing.  It's not all fun if you have to start encounters almost dead, and really, it doesn't even matter most of the time.If we have a small amount of at will healing, I think the system would be better off.  If we don't, then that's one point in favor of encouraging resting after every encounter, and that gets annoying.  That's also why I'm heavily against daily spells.  They only encourage resting after every encounter, and /encounter can do the job better, and not suffer that problem.  If there's a recharge instead of daily (like, over the course of an hour you re-gain 1/8th of the points you have total) that acts like daily, that might be fine.  But if we combine it with /encounter and at-will, with the at-will being competent enough to function, but not all that good, encounter being good enough, and daily being desperation-mode, then that should eliminate all the problems there.  Now you are only slightly encouraged to rest between encounters, and you can function well without resting.

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As far as Spell Seeds vs Augmentation goes, I think both are just as bad, really. I would not be opposed to developing seeds and then using them ourselves to create the spells that we present with the new casting system. I AM opposed to developing seeds and presenting them as the new casting system. If augmentation bogs down gameplay, spell seeds do as much or moreso.

Not really.  I don't see augmentation as bogging down gameplay either, though.  If you've got a small number of options to choose from that can be combined, and can be combined in varying degrees, you've got a system that 1: is extreeeeeemely customizable on a /spell basis and 2: contains a relatively small number of options, yet produces a very large array of results.  You've got the capability of between sessions figuring out what you'll use more often and yet will still be able to do something new if you need to in the session.  This is a seed based augment system, so you won't create new spells, but augment on the fly.  Not that you need to figure everything you're augmenting on the fly, you can do that at any time.  But you have the capability of augmenting to adapt to unexpected situations, as well as augment to the power that the situation calls for.

Quote
Systems should not really vary between classes. Unless of course you mean variation like Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade. They all operate on the Maneuvers/Stances system, and use the Nine Swords Disciplines, but they have slight variations in how they interact with that system. That kind of variation I can get behind heartily. Accessibility I think can certainly also vary between classes. I imagine a Wizard should know more Daily spells than a Sorcerer. That sort of thing. The part about resource pools overlapping/stacking is interesting, and as you said, I'm fairly undecided, though I lean toward no. No, because with a ToB sort of multiclassing it becomes MUCH less of an issue.

I agree, except for the last part.  It's a pain (especially if you use points!) to keep track of separate pools for he same mechanics.  I think we should take a psionics approach here, and have the points from different classes stack.  This will help the multiclassing, cause without it, you've got the CL increase (which is probably affecting how many points you can invest), without the point increase (which means you can't invest the points).  Cl is probably going to govern bonus points (if any) as well though.

Quote
Yes, Sorta, Sorta, Yes, Yes.

The sortas are that I'm thinking of a daily allotment of points that can be partially refreshed by taking some amount of time to rest. Perhaps with some items or feats that grant a one-time faster refreshment before being consumed, for those dramatic situations where resting is impossible from a character motivation standpoint.

+1
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dither

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #166 on: August 18, 2009, 01:11:33 PM »
At-Will Spells? Yes or No.

Encounter Spells? Yes or No (I think this is a unanimous Yes, but we'll see).

Daily Spells? Yes or No.

Spell Points? Yes or No.

Rituals that aren't tailor-made to be used by spellcasters? Yes or No.

Yes, yes, maybe, no, yes.

I think a system using action points or healing surges or something like that would be reasonable for augmenting at-will/encounter powers to achieve a daily-like status. Of course, I'm against Spell Points because I think point systems are obnoxious and best left to the wayside. Hit points are bad enough; we don't need any more point systems.

(Edit: the point of having action points or healing surges to augment spells, rather than spell points, is that they wouldn't exist *solely* to power spells, as "spell points" sort of mandates. Instead, they'd be a resource that everyone has, that serves this "extra" role for spellcasters.)
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 01:13:16 PM by dither »
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dither

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #167 on: August 18, 2009, 01:16:12 PM »
Also, I'm in favor of at-will healing. At least, as far as normal rules go.  Well, no, really, I'm just in favor of at will healing.  It's not all fun if you have to start encounters almost dead, and really, it doesn't even matter most of the time. If we have a small amount of at will healing, I think the system would be better off.  If we don't, then that's one point in favor of encouraging resting after every encounter, and that gets annoying.

Tell me about it. I just beat Diablo by myself in Act 4 of Diablo 2. Do you have any idea how humiliating and stupid it is to have to teleport back to town to restock on healing potions so I can go back and continue the battle? How about four times?

That shit's lame.

"Sorry Big D, we've gotta put out epic duel on hold so I can go back to town and restock my healing kit. Don't wait up, make some popcorn or something, I think I also have to repair my weapons, maybe change out some of my gear, you know the routine."
« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 01:17:55 PM by dither »
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shiningphoenix

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #168 on: August 18, 2009, 02:26:07 PM »
At-Will Spells? Yes or No.

Encounter Spells? Yes or No (I think this is a unanimous Yes, but we'll see).

Daily Spells? Yes or No.

Spell Points? Yes or No.

Rituals that aren't tailor-made to be used by spellcasters? Yes or No.

Yes, yes, ambivalent, ambivalent, ambivalent

Regarding seed-based systems:
  there seem to be two versions that people are talking about; one is where the spellcaster creates spells from the seeds in advance (preferably between  sessions), and uses them like fixed spells, and the other is where the seeds are used to create spells "on the fly" so to speak. I personally support the former, and see the latter as being different from augmenting only quantitatively, not qualitatively (less spells more augmenting options per spell).
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dither

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #169 on: August 18, 2009, 03:51:24 PM »
Regarding seed-based systems:
  there seem to be two versions that people are talking about; one is where the spellcaster creates spells from the seeds in advance (preferably between  sessions), and uses them like fixed spells, and the other is where the seeds are used to create spells "on the fly" so to speak. I personally support the former, and see the latter as being different from augmenting only quantitatively, not qualitatively (less spells more augmenting options per spell).

You're correct and for the most part we've referred to "seeds" when referring to ways of building spells between sessions and "augmentations" when referring to modifying spells on the fly.
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veekie

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #170 on: August 18, 2009, 04:01:36 PM »
Yea! Some people are back in the keeping Daily spells camp! One of the biggest reasons I'm for Daily spells is that at-will healing is just a pain in the ass. Yes, I know it is very easy to do within the core rules as they are written. That doesn't make it any less of a pain in the ass. The ability of 4E to have a power called Cure Critical Wounds at Daily, and grant the target healing as though they spent 3 healing surges, but without spending those surges, is great (IMO). Per encounter healing, while not as bad as at-will, can also still be a pain in the ass if not carefully watched (as the Crusader).

Note that I am not in favor of daily spells.  Only daily points.  There's a BIG difference.

Also, I'm in favor of at-will healing.  At least, as far as normal rules go.  Well, no, really, I'm just in favor of at will healing.  It's not all fun if you have to start encounters almost dead, and really, it doesn't even matter most of the time.If we have a small amount of at will healing, I think the system would be better off.  If we don't, then that's one point in favor of encouraging resting after every encounter, and that gets annoying.  That's also why I'm heavily against daily spells.  They only encourage resting after every encounter, and /encounter can do the job better, and not suffer that problem.  If there's a recharge instead of daily (like, over the course of an hour you re-gain 1/8th of the points you have total) that acts like daily, that might be fine. But if we combine it with /encounter and at-will, with the at-will being competent enough to function, but not all that good, encounter being good enough, and daily being desperation-mode, then that should eliminate all the problems there.  Now you are only slightly encouraged to rest between encounters, and you can function well without resting.

Quote
As far as Spell Seeds vs Augmentation goes, I think both are just as bad, really. I would not be opposed to developing seeds and then using them ourselves to create the spells that we present with the new casting system. I AM opposed to developing seeds and presenting them as the new casting system. If augmentation bogs down gameplay, spell seeds do as much or moreso.

Not really.  I don't see augmentation as bogging down gameplay either, though.  If you've got a small number of options to choose from that can be combined, and can be combined in varying degrees, you've got a system that 1: is extreeeeeemely customizable on a /spell basis and 2: contains a relatively small number of options, yet produces a very large array of results.  You've got the capability of between sessions figuring out what you'll use more often and yet will still be able to do something new if you need to in the session.  This is a seed based augment system, so you won't create new spells, but augment on the fly.  Not that you need to figure everything you're augmenting on the fly, you can do that at any time.  But you have the capability of augmenting to adapt to unexpected situations, as well as augment to the power that the situation calls for.

Quote
Systems should not really vary between classes. Unless of course you mean variation like Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade. They all operate on the Maneuvers/Stances system, and use the Nine Swords Disciplines, but they have slight variations in how they interact with that system. That kind of variation I can get behind heartily. Accessibility I think can certainly also vary between classes. I imagine a Wizard should know more Daily spells than a Sorcerer. That sort of thing. The part about resource pools overlapping/stacking is interesting, and as you said, I'm fairly undecided, though I lean toward no. No, because with a ToB sort of multiclassing it becomes MUCH less of an issue.

I agree, except for the last part.  It's a pain (especially if you use points!) to keep track of separate pools for he same mechanics.  I think we should take a psionics approach here, and have the points from different classes stack.  This will help the multiclassing, cause without it, you've got the CL increase (which is probably affecting how many points you can invest), without the point increase (which means you can't invest the points).  Cl is probably going to govern bonus points (if any) as well though.

Quote
Yes, Sorta, Sorta, Yes, Yes.

The sortas are that I'm thinking of a daily allotment of points that can be partially refreshed by taking some amount of time to rest. Perhaps with some items or feats that grant a one-time faster refreshment before being consumed, for those dramatic situations where resting is impossible from a character motivation standpoint.

+1
What he said, mostly, reflect my views.  Except I have Sorta, Sorta, Sorta, Yes, Yes, with the same kind of sortas. Extra emphasis on the bolded.
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bkdubs123

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #171 on: August 18, 2009, 04:03:03 PM »
And out of what I could extrapolate from previous posts by people who have not yet voted:

We have Veekie in the Spell Points/Spell Seeds camp; Ejo Thims hates Spell Points; Robby Pants is in the Spell Points camp; and B.T. agrees that Spell Seeds are, I believe he said "cumbersome" (or something to that effect).

Dither, it looks like you and I are outnumbered over Spell Points and Spell Seeds. My votes would be:

At-Will Spells? Yes.

Encounter Spells? Yes.

Daily Spells? Yes.

Spell Points? No. Especially not multiple pools of encounter and daily based SP.

Rituals that aren't tailor-made to be used by spellcasters? Yes.

skydragonknight

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #172 on: August 18, 2009, 04:41:37 PM »
Just discovered this thread!

At Will: Yes.

Slayers d20 has a very interesting spell system that's at-will, but I still need to run numbers on it.
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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #173 on: August 18, 2009, 04:48:06 PM »
At-Will Spells? Yes

Encounter Spells? Yes

Daily Spells? No

Spell Points? No*

Rituals that aren't tailor-made to be used by spellcasters? No opinion

* I can go either way on this, but it will probably be easiest to say no.
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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #174 on: August 18, 2009, 05:41:29 PM »
At-Will: Maybe.
Encounter: Yes.
Daily: Yes.
Spellpoints: No.
Rituals: Yes.

bkdubs123

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #175 on: August 18, 2009, 06:26:26 PM »
Okay, well with Robby deciding against Spell Points it looks like we have come to an indecision. Back in the beginning of this thread, I had some ideas for using a Daily pool of Spell Points which could be used to "augment" spells, however, with a Spell Seeds system Spell Points would be used drastically differently. I don't know how many of us are actually on board with a Spell Seeds system. I know Dman wants it to be the system, Shining Phoenix wants them to be a part of the system at the very least, and Veekie seems to want to use a similar, but not exactly "seeds" system which appears to be modular, almost "puzzle piece" type spells.

Veekie has already outlined his idea, though I think with multiple pools of Spell Points and a sort of "build-your-spells" attitude it seems MUCH too complex. However, would other people like to outline their ideas?

I'm worried that people are so invested in exactly their vision of what they want a non-vancian casting system to be that cooperation is becoming very hindered. Dman for example seems to be advocating exactly his Magic of Origins idea. It also feels like we are again skipping steps by discussing the nature of the system before we've even determined what we want magic to do.

AlterFrom

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #176 on: August 18, 2009, 07:43:50 PM »

I'm worried that people are so invested in exactly their vision of what they want a non-vancian casting system to be that cooperation is becoming very hindered. Dman for example seems to be advocating exactly his Magic of Origins idea. It also feels like we are again skipping steps by discussing the nature of the system before we've even determined what we want magic to do.

Someone has to buckle. Compromise is a dangerous thing, as you could just as easily wind up with the cons of both sides with the pros of neither. A strong, unified (If not unanimously favored) system goal will go a long way to keeping this project from withering from disinterest.

I, personally, have no real interest in how we make the system. I have found, over the past year of DMing, that I favor short action-y scenes with the occasional dramatic climax that lasts longer and Heroes who have a defined method of combat or interaction. Naturally, I favor a system with At-Wills and Encounters, with Daily abilities being rare options or having multiple uses per day, and find the concept of seed- or point-based augmentations/constructions elegant but too much work to do during a play session. Non-spellcaster rituals, to me, are a chance to let even the Mundanes have a piece of the Magical Cake and act like Big Damn Magical Heroes for a bit, or act as temporary replacement for an indisposed spell caster. (For reference, Bkdubs: Yes, Yes, Maybe with restrictions, No, Yes)

And yet, I wouldn't mind working on a system that favored At-Will abilities augmented by a daily resource or constructed wholecloth by a seeds system. What I want out of this project is to be a part of a community working to make something awesome, something new. I want to take out new system, and have my school DnD group run it for a bit, because I know they'd love to see it, or at least let me play it.

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« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 07:48:12 PM by AlterFrom »
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dither

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #177 on: August 18, 2009, 07:49:00 PM »
I'm worried that people are so invested in exactly their vision of what they want a non-vancian casting system to be that cooperation is becoming very hindered. Dman for example seems to be advocating exactly his Magic of Origins idea. It also feels like we are again skipping steps by discussing the nature of the system before we've even determined what we want magic to do.

I'll bow out. I've got my own system in the works and some of my more radical suggestions have already been shot down.

Good luck, gentlemen.  :)


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veekie

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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #178 on: August 18, 2009, 09:11:40 PM »

I'm worried that people are so invested in exactly their vision of what they want a non-vancian casting system to be that cooperation is becoming very hindered. Dman for example seems to be advocating exactly his Magic of Origins idea. It also feels like we are again skipping steps by discussing the nature of the system before we've even determined what we want magic to do.

Someone has to buckle. Compromise is a dangerous thing, as you could just as easily wind up with the cons of both sides with the pros of neither. A strong, unified (If not unanimously favored) system goal will go a long way to keeping this project from withering from disinterest.

I, personally, have no real interest in how we make the system. I have found, over the past year of DMing, that I favor short action-y scenes with the occasional dramatic climax that lasts longer and Heroes who have a defined method of combat or interaction. Naturally, I favor a system with At-Wills and Encounters, with Daily abilities being rare options or having multiple uses per day, and find the concept of seed- or point-based augmentations/constructions elegant but too much work to do during a play session. Non-spellcaster rituals, to me, are a chance to let even the Mundanes have a piece of the Magical Cake and act like Big Damn Magical Heroes for a bit, or act as temporary replacement for an indisposed spell caster. (For reference, Bkdubs: Yes, Yes, Maybe with restrictions, No, Yes)

And yet, I wouldn't mind working on a system that favored At-Will abilities augmented by a daily resource or constructed wholecloth by a seeds system. What I want out of this project is to be a part of a community working to make something awesome, something new. I want to take out new system, and have my school DnD group run it for a bit, because I know they'd love to see it, or at least let me play it.

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Same here really, I'd continue to participate, no matter which concept is on the table(unless it manages to be worse than the current state of things, an admittedly difficult situation), though contribution becomes slightly limited, as, of course, I'm best with my own stuff.

As to points vs slots and Augment vs Not, I figure it is possible to be done elegantly, as long as each augment type is distinct, and the options clear. Each augment seed can do several, clearly defined things, depending on which aspect is in use and what points are spent. No more than 3-4(depending on if you count using the seed as the base spell) options per seed, as I see it, keeps it easy to understand and use at a glance. Meanwhile, as the Encounter and Daily pools are separate(regeneration /minute and /hour), you can in fact, use the same daily power multiple times per day, but only so often in total. Implementation of this can also vary, do we want X points per HD(which makes sense for the more common Encounter point pool, and would recover at HD points/minute) or a static value for Daily points(Like spending an action point to kick the spell up a notch)?

A question though, how would the non-augment/non-seed camps change the basic structure of things? Or would it be more of a case of individual spell/effect revisions.  I'd love to see an alternative implementation. Afterwards the sketch of implementations can each be collated, and subject to pros/cons analysis, THEN we decide, once the potential good and potential bad are dug up. A new thread might be handy at this point, if only so we can tell what the hell is going on.
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Re: Let's Design a Non-Vancian Casting system
« Reply #179 on: August 18, 2009, 10:01:00 PM »
A question though, how would the non-augment/non-seed camps change the basic structure of things? Or would it be more of a case of individual spell/effect revisions.  I'd love to see an alternative implementation. Afterwards the sketch of implementations can each be collated, and subject to pros/cons analysis, THEN we decide, once the potential good and potential bad are dug up. A new thread might be handy at this point, if only so we can tell what the hell is going on.

  I suppose I'm not the target of this question, preferring seeds myself, but one thing that might work, and wouldn't be augment or seeds, would be to take existing spells and declare them to be @will or /encounter powers of, or available at, a certain level.
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