A Tank that Gishes.

[Gods_Trick]

  Hello all, and jeeze it's dead around here. LongTimeLurker but I finally found a group in dear L'bridge, so I'm finally needing some OP help.

  Because of the lurking I picked up a lot of tech and accidentally castrated a killer GM. Now he's out to get me!   I called him out and said sure, but within the rules, so I may have a shot at this  

Some backstory.

[spoiler]  Played a Booster Bard that went Sublime Chord, but kept the OP't low - until he started getting nasty. Plan was for us all to die badly and be raised as the villains for the next campaign. Err ... okay, except he didn't mention that beforehand and all we know is theres a shitstorm of CR inappropriate encounters.

  Last epic fight his Rainbow Warmage (might have more added, had Wiz/Sorc spells) TPK everyone. A contingent teleport on death, a familiar that explodes on that contingent teleport and a True Res contingent waiting on my teleport touchdown made that innacurate but unnoticed   Cheesy but fun.  

  So I have a moral victory, right. No harm done, we're all starting at level 1 in the same world. 'Cept the others agreed I was too broken   and had the tank role this time. Role only mind you, if i can do the job I don't have to be a fighter. Alright ... except, as a challenge some where around level 14 - 18 his Rainbow Warmage is going to realise that I'm destined to kill him and is going to come after me    WTF?![/spoiler]

Rules.

[spoiler]  Okay, I hashed up some ground rules with him:-

  1) For the Warmage - Genesis or other planar turtling tactics are right out. Also no Contact other Plane or Clone tricks. Everything else is   allowed though he will be sending minions for the first little bit.
  2) I have to be the tank and dmg dealer for this group  
  3) I can't pick classes the other guys use, so druid, wizard, swashbucker and favoured soul is out.

  House rules

  1) You must be able to cast the spell normally before DMM kicks in.
  2) Fractional BAB
  3) The 'bonus' saves a class gives you at 1st level becomes a non-stackable bonus.
  4) All books open, but the starting character must chose from 2 sources and core for material.
  5) No multiclassing penalty, but you pay XP to enter a new class. 1000 xp X number of base classes & 100 xp X incomplete PrCs. Certain 1st level-only feats can be taken when entering a new class.
  6) Incantrix has been nerfed somehow, details unavailable.
  7) 2 flaws avaible and 1 extra feat at lvl 1, 5, 10 and 15.
  8) Leadership works, but cohort must be chosen from NPC aka can't build your cohort  
  9) Every cleric spell that is part of a domain is removed from all cleric spell list.
 10) LA buyback. [/spoiler]

  So the builds I'm looking at are: -

  Hexblade 6/ Mindbender 1/ Arcane Archer 2/ Barbarian 1/ Abjurant Champion 5/ XXX 5?

  Mindbender to take Mindsight feat, Rage for the Imperious Command shutdown, Vecna-blooded to deal with scrying and going Shocktrooper route for the damage.

  Or:-

  Warblade 2/ Warmage 1/ JPM 3/ Rainbow Servant 10/ XXX?

  Late blooming, but there's a satisfaction in doing onto others what was done onto you. Versatile Spellcaster speeds up access to RS but I'm still vulnerable to Timestop and Scrying tactics.

  Which is the better chassis for a tank that might have a chance against a Rainbow God? First build feels stronger to me, but I'm wary about Hexblade, and it's efficiency.

  Give a hand CO!

EDIT: Another House Rule I forgot to mention. All classes have the option to sacrifice 10x effect level to ignore status or effect for one round. Essentially Ray of Feeb costs 10 hp to ignore for a round, and Slow's effect costs 30 hp. Changes the game play a lot I bet, but I'm not sure since we're going to add it in the coming campaign. So hp will be oddly more useful.  

[Eldariel]

Hexblade and Warmage are neither very special casters. Warmage/Rainbow Servant also makes for a horrible Gish without persisted Divine Power and even then, if the DM goes by the table, is gonna suck. You'll have trouble being efficient on low levels. Anyways, why not go divine? Archivist can do pretty much everything you want and pretty well.

No stupid multiclassing XP losses (other than entering PrCs, I guess - you could go Church Inquisitor pretty soon and yeah, then switch out to a full BAB class since persisting Divine Power is gonna be hard) and pretty impressive overall. How about Ur-Priest? Crusader 4/High Will-class 1 (Archivist, for example)/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10. If Ur-Priest is not ok, Crusader 1/Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Church Inquisitor ->.


You could also make a decent Suel Arcanamach or Duskblade although neither of them is especially powerful. That said, if your DM wants to "win", he is going to so uh... But yeah, I'd make a Ruby Knight Vindicator if I wanted to be efficient. Since Cleric isn't banned, even with the Domain-restriction, it might be a good plan. Clerics are incredible warriors, after all - you just have to pick up few extra domains to get the spells you want. But Archivist is probably better, only next to Ur-Priest. Duskblade 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Sacred Exorcist 9 could work out.

[SorO_Lost]

How about Warblade 7 / Swordsage (spellcaster varient) 2 / Swiftblade 10 / XXX 1?
It should come across as more of a tank than spellcaster.

[Negative Zero]

Isn't it generally agreed that the Spellcasting variant of Swordsage is bork'd as a concept?

[Gr1lledcheese]

I'm playing a summoning druid in a campaign right now, and I've gotta tell you man summons are RIDICULOUS with the greenbound summoning feat (LEoF). My Greenbound Summoned wolf (summon nature's ally 1) Has a 21 AC, 17 HP, DR 10/Magic, Slashing, fast healing 3, resistance 10 electricity&cold, is immune to crits and poison, can cast entangle AT WILL, and has a ton of other goodies that come with the feat and the plant type. Just get a scroll of SNA 1 and go to town man. That build outshines an early fighter by far.

I would say go Archivist/Sacred Exorcist (for DMM) and for your first level feat take greenbound summoning. The feat's only prerequisite is being able to cast summon nature's ally spell, and since they can cast any divine spell you qualify. You still get acess to all of the other great divine spells too, so you'll really be tearing things up. You can even buff and melee yourself if you want to.

But if your DM wants to win, he can just be a dick and win anyway. Keep that in mind.

[Gods_Trick]

  Thanks for the quick replies  

How about Warblade 7 / Swordsage (spellcaster varient) 2 / Swiftblade 10 / XXX 1?
It should come across as more of a tank than spellcaster.

  I'll check if that var. is a go. Does it have the same mechanic (MI = Swordsage lvl. + 1/2 Warblade)? Might be too abusive for this group to stand, if not it'll push back Swiftblade.

Hexblade and Warmage are neither very special casters. Warmage/Rainbow Servant also makes for a horrible Gish without persisted Divine Power and even then, if the DM goes by the table, is gonna suck. You'll have trouble being efficient on low levels. Anyways, why not go divine? Archivist can do pretty much everything you want and pretty well.

No stupid multiclassing XP losses (other than entering PrCs, I guess - you could go Church Inquisitor pretty soon and yeah, then switch out to a full BAB class since persisting Divine Power is gonna be hard) and pretty impressive overall. How about Ur-Priest? Crusader 4/High Will-class 1 (Archivist, for example)/Ur-Priest 2/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10. If Ur-Priest is not ok, Crusader 1/Archivist 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Church Inquisitor ->.


You could also make a decent Suel Arcanamach or Duskblade although neither of them is especially powerful. That said, if your DM wants to "win", he is going to so uh... But yeah, I'd make a Ruby Knight Vindicator if I wanted to be efficient. Since Cleric isn't banned, even with the Domain-restriction, it might be a good plan. Clerics are incredible warriors, after all - you just have to pick up few extra domains to get the spells you want. But Archivist is probably better, only next to Ur-Priest. Duskblade 9/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1/Sacred Exorcist 9 could work out.

  The druid is nerfed to 2 options out of 3; and he's doing Wildshape and AC. Which is fine, 'cept WS doesn't kick in till lvl. 5 and his AC is  chhocobo or something, so he's going to be pretty useless for awhile   The girl playing the Wiz is going blaster but she's competent at the BC stuff, but the Favoured Soul is newbie. We need a 'Here I am!' Tank/Defender to distract monsters, and Jim the Chocobo isn't going to be it. I'm sure the Archivist can't tank enough to pull it off until lvl 3 spells and the GM comes across as someone who'll make divine equivalents of spells and domain scrolls a challenge to find.

 I'd quit this group if the girl wasn't a babe and it's the only group actually playing here. P.S. I'm thinking of going human but thats still open. Anything but Dragonwrought kobolds ought t' be good.

[Gods_Trick]

  Another House Rule I forgot to mention. All classes have the option to sacrifice 10x effect level to ignore status or effect for one round. Essentially Ray of Feeb costs 10 hp to ignore for a round, and Slow's effect costs 30 hp. Changes the game play a lot I bet, but I'm not sure since we're going to add it in the coming campaign. So hp will be oddly more useful. 

 The GM is trying hard to balance the power levels, all the more power to him. But it's weird, I think he's either on the 339 boards or here, and he doesn't hesitate to put up some crazy builds.

  Plus there's going to be a new player who's doing either a cleric or Dread Necro.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Since you can use LA buyoff, vecna-blooded is going to actually be a worthwhile +1 LA.  No scrying on you allowed - plus, you'll be able to know EXACTLY when the rainbow servant starts looking for you.

In addition, you might find it advisable to pick up a few level adjustments of the ghost savage progression.  You're explicitly allowed to multiclass freely with it, and if you take a level of it every third level and immediately buy off it's a pretty good deal.  The third savage progression level gets you rejuvenation, which is a great way to avoid dying permanently.   And telekinesis spam is useful.

Taint mechanics get you one or two free feats upon becoming undead, which is also nice.  Having a dread necro in the party gets you free unlimited healing.  If you take fearie mysteries initiate, you get int to hp instead of con.

[Eldariel]

Archivist isn't an amazing tank, but starting with a Crusader-level goes a long way with that. And Archivist gets you the buffs you want. Though the Duskblade-build might actually be your best bet; Sublime Chord gets pretty nice casting and Sublime Chord is a glorified Fighter early on with good proficiencies and some extra punch from Arcane Channeling starting level 3.

[Havok4]

To fill the tank role you could do something similar to what I am doing in my game. I am playing a psion/constructor which makes for a very good summoning focused character. You end up having a large army of constructs to take and deal damage for the party. Also you can tank yourself with the share pain power combined with a psicrystal and vigor. Allowing you to get effectively 10 bonus hp for each pp expended. The required powers also work well with a warforged as you can heal yourself much more efficiently then the cleric could.

[Amaranth]

Tanking can take two forms:  you can either avoid hits, or have ways to soak the hits.  Which seems like what you are more likely to enjoy playing?

Amaranth

[Rebel7284]

Crusader 1/Cloistered Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7 or
XX 2 (Paladin of Tyranny or Barbarian or Dungeon Crasher Fighter, anything with good Fort) /Crusader 3/Ur Priest 2/XX

[Amaranth]

That second build wouldn't meet the +3 base will save requirement, Rebel.

[Rebel7284]

That second build wouldn't meet the +3 base will save requirement, Rebel.

>_> did I say fort?  I meant will

[Lycanthromancer]

Psywar 20 would be an excellent gish.

No, seriously.

Alternately, egoist 10/crystal master 10, that buffs the hell out of his psicrystal a la The Big Guy is With Me. Just think what he can do with his psicrystal, a summoned cerebrilith, and fusion. Psicrystals are the bomb (and yes, I'm aware of that Hyperconscious power that makes your psicrystal explode... >.>).

[Anklebite]

wow, sounds like you really screwed the opti-pooch last game.... but no matter.

if you want to be a strong tank/damage dealer, vecna-blooded warforged artificer would be funny.  DM wants you to play support? FINE. buff your defences into the stratosphere, power up your allys, and then either whack things with your battlefist or use the wand built into your arm.  ofc, in your other arm is a wand of repair..... tanka-licious.

[Samb]

Psywar 20 would be an excellent gish.

No, seriously.

Alternately, egoist 10/crystal master 10, that buffs the hell out of his psicrystal a la The Big Guy is With Me. Just think what he can do with his psicrystal, a summoned cerebrilith, and fusion. Psicrystals are the bomb (and yes, I'm aware of that Hyperconscious power that makes your psicrystal explode... >.>).

All psi-users can do the old vigor-share pain-psicrystal combo.
And psywar is not gish, they lack the blasting powers (have use EK) and have pathetic PP to really make good use of it.  Hell they don't even get share pain as a class power. 

I love psywar, they add dimension to a party role that is usually pretty boring.  However, the lack of PP is just terrible, and for all your extra feats you spend most of them getting powers that are not on your list (like share power).  An egoist is a "do everything" class and not sure if it fits well with the spirit of the exercise.

I personally would go wilder.   They have more PP than you can point a finger at, have blasting/tanking powers (like share pain) and they don't need overchannel to boost vigor.  Think about how counter-productive manifesting vigor with overchannel would be?  I boost vigor to take 3d8 of damage......How anyone say overchannel= wild surge is beyond me..... of course you can spend another feat AND focus to try and imitate wild surge.

Wanna know why a psion/10/anarchic initiate is so great?  Because its a psion with wild surge.  Plain and simple.

[Lycanthromancer]

Psywar 20 would be an excellent gish.

No, seriously.

Alternately, egoist 10/crystal master 10, that buffs the hell out of his psicrystal a la The Big Guy is With Me. Just think what he can do with his psicrystal, a summoned cerebrilith, and fusion. Psicrystals are the bomb (and yes, I'm aware of that Hyperconscious power that makes your psicrystal explode... >.>).

All psi-users can do the old vigor-share pain-psicrystal combo.
And psywar is not gish, they lack the blasting powers (have use EK) and have pathetic PP to really make good use of it.

Depends on how you build 'em. It's quite possible to dual-wield dorjes and blast/blast/blast.

I'm quite able to do a LOT with one of those. I can take down tier 1 characters, even.

[Samb]

Psywar 20 would be an excellent gish.

No, seriously.

Alternately, egoist 10/crystal master 10, that buffs the hell out of his psicrystal a la The Big Guy is With Me. Just think what he can do with his psicrystal, a summoned cerebrilith, and fusion. Psicrystals are the bomb (and yes, I'm aware of that Hyperconscious power that makes your psicrystal explode... >.>).

All psi-users can do the old vigor-share pain-psicrystal combo.
And psywar is not gish, they lack the blasting powers (have use EK) and have pathetic PP to really make good use of it.

Depends on how you build 'em. It's quite possible to dual-wield dorjes and blast/blast/blast.

I'm quite able to do a LOT with one of those. I can take down tier 1 characters, even.

Sorry but wilder tank> psywar tank
A wilder can do what you said and better with schism and wild surge.  At the same level I can use powers at a higher level without taking damage, without paying for the augment cost, and without losing focus.

[Samb]

I don't want to sound like I hate psywar, in fact I love them but for a gish?  Psywar just don't cut it.

I'll say this though, a wilder gish tank will need to take a level in psywar for the proficiencies to qualify for santified mind (the extra EK feat doesn't hurt wither).