Author Topic: Gestalt Crusader/Cleric Feat & Maneuver Selection  (Read 3815 times)

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MrBumberdumble

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Gestalt Crusader/Cleric Feat & Maneuver Selection
« on: July 27, 2009, 12:23:12 PM »
So I'm helping a friend of mine build a character for a short Gestalt power-game that our DM is running.  I'm playing a Wizard/Spirit Shaman conjuration/summoning specialist, and I have been working with him on building a tank.  The rules for multiclassing are very strict.  We can only swap one class out for a prestige class if we want to, but beyond that no multiclassing at all.

So, I came up with a pretty solid tank build for him.  He will be a Crusader/Cleric for 5 levels, leading into Ruby Knight Vindicator/Crusader.  I'm hoping you folks can help me pick some feats and perhaps select maneuvers as well.  I'm trying to build him so that he's able to draw as much focus fire as possible.  He will be fighting with a Glaive and Armor Spikes.  Here's what I have so far for feats and maneuvers.  Any advice on changes, or other suggestions would be most appreciated.

Feats:
Human:  Combat Reflexes
Flaw:  Extra Granted Maneuver
Flaw:  Power Attack
1st:  Divine Might
3rd:  Goad ???
6th:  Stand Still
9th:  Extra Turning
12th:  Robilar's Gambit
15th:  Defensive Sweep
18th:  ????

Maneuvers/Stances:

1st:  Crusader's Strike, Stone Bones, Leading the Attack, Vanguard Strike, Charging Minotaur, STANCE:  Martial Spirit
2nd:  STANCE:  Leading the Charge
3rd:  Stone Vise
4th:  Leading the Attack => Battle Leader's Charge
5th:  Revitalizing Strike
6th:  Charging Minotaur => White Raven Tactics, STANCE: Thicket of Blades (RKV)
7th:  White Raven Strike (Rogue in the party), Entangling Blade (RKV)
8th:  STANCE: Tactics of the Wolf , ???
9th:  ???
10th: 
11th:
12th:
13th:
14th:
15th:
16th:
17th:
18th:
19th:
20th:

MrBumberdumble

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Re: Gestalt Crusader/Cleric Feat & Maneuver Selection
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2009, 05:43:01 PM »
So we decided to rework the feats a bit and go with Mageslayer and Practiced Spellcaster instead of Power Attack and Divine Might (changed the order of feat selection to do it).

I'm still wondering if anyone can help with the maneuver selection, though.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.  

Edit:  Practiced Spellcaster, not Focused Spellcaster :)
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 05:56:43 PM by MrBumberdumble »

AfterCrescent

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Re: Gestalt Crusader/Cleric Feat & Maneuver Selection
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 05:58:58 PM »
Last I checked Mageslayer hits your CL, and you already take a hit via RKV, so that's probably a suboptimal route to go...
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MrBumberdumble

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Re: Gestalt Crusader/Cleric Feat & Maneuver Selection
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 06:03:23 PM »
Yeah that's why we took Practiced Spellcaster.

DerWille

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Re: Gestalt Crusader/Cleric Feat & Maneuver Selection
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 06:30:13 PM »
I love martial characters, but could you give us a bit more info? What books are you allowed? What are his ability scores? Let me rephrase your multiclassing, we can only have 1 prestige class and as many base classes, right? Or is it strictly, 2 base classes and 1 prestige class? Also, do you want him to be focused on spells or maneuvers? Or would you prefer to have some other type of fighter trickery?

I'll assume everything is open for now:

 Since you want him to be a tank and you're using glaive + armor spikes, I figure you want a lock down build of some sort. This is what I assume your build is going to be using the strictest multiclassing rules.

Cloistered Cleric 20//Crusader 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Crusader +5
Feats:
More focused on spells.
1) Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Extend Spell (Planning domain), Extra Turning (Undeath Domain), Knowledge Devotion (Knowledge Domain), Persist Spell, DMM Persist
3) Extra Granted Maneuver
6) Extra Turning
9) Extra Turning
12) Robliar's Gambit
15) Extra Turning
18) Extra Turning

Tactics: He'll be a full caster from Cloistered Cleric so there's no worries about losing spells or caster levels. This build is fairly simple, at the beginning of the day, he casts as many persistent spells as possible (Mass lessor vigor!) to make himself into a walking Crusaderzilla. Make sure that he casts a persistent enlarge person on himself. A MAD build, but the persistent buffs help alleviate it.

More focused on fightin'
1) Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, Stand Still, Extend Spell (Planning domain), Extra Turning (Undeath Domain), Knowledge Devotion (Knowledge Domain), Persist Spell, DMM Persist
3) Combat Expertise
6) Improved Trip
9) Holy Warrior (Complete Champion)
12) Robliar's Gambit
15) Defensive Sweep
18) Overwhelming Assault

Tactics: He's more of a melee threat now. Knowledge Devotion and Holy Warrior will help boost the save DCs of stand still by tacking on some extra damage. He strikes normally, stand stills, then trips. Then with his improved trip attack, use a white raven maneuver to give your summons an extra boost. On the downside, he'll only be able to persist maybe one or two spells unless your DM allows nightstick stacking. This build is still very MAD though.

MrBumberdumble

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Re: Gestalt Crusader/Cleric Feat & Maneuver Selection
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 08:12:58 PM »
Thanks for the help.  Here's what you were looking for, info-wise. 

All WotC published 3.5 edition books are allowed(no 3.0)

Ability scores are as follows (if i remember correctly).  We used a 4d6 keep 'em all, for power-game purposes.

Str: 17
Dex: 14
Con: 24
Wis: 18
Int: 15
Cha:17

To clarify the multi-classing limitations, we are gestalt, starting with 2 base classes (in this case Cleric/Crusader).  If we wish to take a prestige class we can drop one class from our gestalt build and take said prestige class in its place. 

So this character will be Crusader 20//Cleric 5/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Cleric +5

DerWille

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Re: Gestalt Crusader/Cleric Feat & Maneuver Selection
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2009, 01:07:16 AM »
You seem pretty set on Crusader 20/Cleric 5/RKV 10/Cleric 5 so that'll reduce your options a bit. If you're willing to to play around with the crusader levels, we could probably put some Intimidating Rage + Imperious Command fun in there. We could also front load most of the feats you'll need so he can do is tricks sooner.

Maneuvers wise, I'd focus on Devoted Spirit and White Raven. In particular, a nifty little level 1 maneuver called Leading the Attack can be combined with a trip attempt or the following attack (With improved trip) to do three things, make the opponent flat footed, -4 AC, and then give +4 to attack rolls for a single round. If we assume that he trips a fore near one of your summons, that summon will have flanking as well. So in total, that summon will receive a net +12 to attack through various buffs/debuffs.

 Another great one is White Raven Tactics for obvious reasons, it lets you once per encounter give an ally an extra turn.

 The entire line of maneuvers from Devoted Spirit that heal you on attack are awesome. I'm rather partial to daunting strike as well, it makes them shaken. An amazing boost is Defensive Rebuke. For every enemy you strike, for the next round, they must strike you or provoke an attack of opportunity for each and every strike. That boost alone far out weighs goad. Iron guard's glare is also great for forcing an enemy to strike you, it's either attack you or suffer -4 to your attack roll. And of course there's Thicket of Blades, which is fairly mandatory stance for a lock down build. Also, Vanguard strike is nearly identical to leading the charge.

 I focused on some of the lower level maneuvers, but there's still great higher ones.

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Re: Gestalt Crusader/Cleric Feat & Maneuver Selection
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2009, 02:46:49 PM »
Wouldn't RKV fall under the progressing 2 different sets of abilities rules? Same as a Theurge class.
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kurashu

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Re: Gestalt Crusader/Cleric Feat & Maneuver Selection
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2009, 05:42:45 PM »
Wouldn't RKV fall under the progressing 2 different sets of abilities rules? Same as a Theurge class.

I guess, but I'm assuming it's been house ruled in.

Too bad he can't mutliclass but once. Archivist 19/Cloistered Cleric 1//Crusader 5/RKV 10/Crusader 5 would be an awesome build. Double fun for Archivist 18/Dread Necromancer 1/Cloistered Cleric 1.

Just some musings. But they are right, stick with Cloistered Cleric instead of regular cleric, it's almost always a step up.