Author Topic: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed  (Read 194672 times)

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Benly

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #220 on: August 14, 2010, 05:18:05 AM »
With magic circle you can actually planar bind things without death+reanimation shenanigans.

And it's not like you're going to be persist focused.

True. It's just hard to get the reek of shenanigans off of DMM, and when I hear planar binding while talking about DNs... well, I'm used to dealing with somewhat less pragmatic theorycrafters on optimization boards. It's a pleasant surprise hearing someone suggest non-shenanigans applications of these.

I'm not entirely sure what metamagics would go well with DMM for a Dread Necro, but once you get the entire frigging cleric list on your spont, considerable flexibility is gained, I suppose.

Zemyla

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #221 on: September 06, 2010, 09:34:27 AM »
Here's some stuff from Player's Guide to Eberron and Five Nations.

Gatekeeper Mystagogue (PGtE) - -1 with druid entry, +0 with non-druid entry.  It advances or grants an animal companion, has 9/10 spellcasting, and has a bunch of features that are useful against aberrations, but not much else.  Though it does give you poison immunity, slippery mind, and a kind of dimensional lock ability.  Losing wildshape is too much trouble for druids, though.

High Elemental Binder (PGtE) - -1.  You lose a level of spellcasting, but get an elemental companion.  And a bunch of features that would be real useful for gishes if only it didn't have d6 HD and 3/4 BAB.

Revenant Blade (PGtE) - +2.  This class single-handedly (well, two-handedly) made dual-wielding viable.  If you're an elf and you're going into melee, take it and never look back.

Knight Phantom (5N) - +1.  A much better version of the eldritch knight, even if the prereqs are wonky.

Dark Lantern (5N) - +0.  It's not really as bad as I remembered it being, just lackluster.  It gives you a bunch of rogue special abilities and full sneak attack progression, so it's not too bad compared to a straight rogue.

Cyran Avenger (5N) - +0.  A five-level gish class with smiting.  Not terrible, but not awesome, either.

Bone Knight (5N) - +2.  Sacrifice a caster level for a bucketload of immunities?  Certainly!

Silver Pyromancer (5N) - +1.  For setting things on fire, it doesn't get better than this.

iferius

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #222 on: December 25, 2010, 07:43:03 AM »
And now, this long-time lurker has finally registered to say:

Cityscape is not complete yet.

The Ebonmar Infiltrator is +1 (it progresses most rogue abilities, grants spells, dodge and reflex bonuses, hide in plain sight and blindsense 5 ft. It does require two crappy feats though.)

Crimson Scourge: +0 (Even though the first 6 levels do not offer much useful class abilities, you still have full BAB and 6 skill points. Getting Scent and an immunity to pain manipulating spells at the end makes this a strong +0 PrC.

cru

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #223 on: December 25, 2010, 07:46:45 AM »
@Knight Phantom - is it really that much better than Eldritch Knight?

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #224 on: December 25, 2010, 08:21:34 AM »
@Knight Phantom - is it really that much better than Eldritch Knight?
No, it isn't.  If we're going with some kind of +/- system then I'd say they're both -1 PrCs for anything but some kind of Warmage entry.  You're probably sacrificing 2 caster levels to take these classes, and that's pretty much the definition of playing nice when we're talking about Sorcerers and Wizards.

That said, I don't like 10-level PrCs getting a +/- rating.  Any properly built Incantatrix is a Tier 1 character, even if you advance something like Duskblade casting with it.  It can still freely persist the spells of other characters and/or spells from wands and scrolls.  Eldritch Knight and Knight Phantom are both Tier 2.

Something substantially shorter, say 5 levels or so, can still work with the +/- rating system, although such dips should rarely result in a + rating, IMO.  Shadowcraft Mage is a -1 PrC.  A sorcerer/SCM is Tier 1.  A Cleric/SCM or Wizard/SCM is Tier 0.

Classes that can be effectively used in both ways should get both ratings.  A Mindbender, for example, is a Tier 3 class for all 10 levels, and a -0 tier dip.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #225 on: December 26, 2010, 08:32:19 PM »
That said, I don't like 10-level PrCs getting a +/- rating.  Any properly built Incantatrix is a Tier 1 character, even if you advance something like Duskblade casting with it.  It can still freely persist the spells of other characters and/or spells from wands and scrolls.  Eldritch Knight and Knight Phantom are both Tier 2.

That's why the ratings are based upon the expected entry for the PrC.
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #226 on: February 09, 2011, 03:40:23 AM »
That said, I don't like 10-level PrCs getting a +/- rating.  Any properly built Incantatrix is a Tier 1 character, even if you advance something like Duskblade casting with it.  It can still freely persist the spells of other characters and/or spells from wands and scrolls.  Eldritch Knight and Knight Phantom are both Tier 2.

That's why the ratings are based upon the expected entry for the PrC.
If it's based on an "expected" entry, then why generalize it?  What does it mean to be a "Tier -1" Wizard/Incantatrix or a "Tier 0" Sorcerer/Incantatrix?  Is a Sorcerer/Incantatrix really significantly better than a Dread Necromancer/Incantatrix or a Beguiler/Incantatrix?  Also, what's the expected entry for a PrC like Battle Trickster, which is explicitly designed to be entered into by a wide variety of classes?

I think if you want to have a more accurate listing of the abilities, then there really ought to be more of a hybrid approach.  PrCs with character-defining abilities really should have a static tier just like the base class, where you then take the higher of the PrC's tier or the Base Class' tier to determine how powerful said character is.  For example, I'll revise Incantatrix to a Tier 2 character, because any character that takes 3 levels in Incantatrix has absolutely game-breaking power, even if such power is pretty much only Persistent Spell cheese.

If you want an even more stark example of classes that don't care what the rest of the character does, then let's look at the Ur-Priest.  Fast-progression Tier 1 spellcasting, with class abilities to boot.  Any character that uses the full Ur-Priest spell progression is clearly a Tier 1 character.  Similarly to the Divine Crusader, which is Tier 2.  I'm sure some people won't agree with this, but the Divine Crusader is more than able to cast game-breaking spells like Shapechange, Time Stop, etc. and can even gain multiple different game-breaking spells if adding domains to the class' casting.  This can easily exceed the number of different techniques a Sorcerer can employ.

Mystifu

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #227 on: April 25, 2011, 12:19:37 PM »
I strongly disagree with shadowsmith being a tier 0. You gain a couple of minor skill bonuses, but most of the classes abilities are focused on giving you benefits that are worse than magic items normally give you. Making shadow weapons is mostly pointless. You don't get a simple magic weapon until at least character level 11, and by level 16 you have effectively a +7 weapon (+5 with shadowstriking). By that times I would expect players start upgrading towards +10 weapons. The deflection bonus would be nice, but it maxes out at +4, which is worse then a ring of deflection, so if you are using it, your AC is lower than it would be.

Basically, you are putting 10 levels into a prestige class to make sub-par equipment. The weapon can't get any cool enchantments other than shadowstriking, they are even worse if you want to dual-weild. It just fails to do what it is trying to do.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #228 on: April 25, 2011, 06:31:41 PM »
I strongly disagree with shadowsmith being a tier 0. You gain a couple of minor skill bonuses, but most of the classes abilities are focused on giving you benefits that are worse than magic items normally give you. Making shadow weapons is mostly pointless. You don't get a simple magic weapon until at least character level 11, and by level 16 you have effectively a +7 weapon (+5 with shadowstriking). By that times I would expect players start upgrading towards +10 weapons. The deflection bonus would be nice, but it maxes out at +4, which is worse then a ring of deflection, so if you are using it, your AC is lower than it would be.

Basically, you are putting 10 levels into a prestige class to make sub-par equipment. The weapon can't get any cool enchantments other than shadowstriking, they are even worse if you want to dual-weild. It just fails to do what it is trying to do.

I'll agree with this. It looks like a Gish class, but it's actually closer to the Incarnum Blade than the Eldritch Knight. The Mysteries Known must all be Apprentice level, so you effectively get three 1st level spells as 1/day SLAs (and none of them are that good).


The redeeming qualities? 6+Int Skill Points and Full BAB. And the skill list isn't filled out appropriately for 6+Int skill points, so you'll have excess with even a +1 Int modifier.


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Endarire

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #229 on: June 18, 2011, 07:49:48 PM »
I contest that Bloodstorm Blade (Tome of Battle) is best taken for 4 levels.  After that, it becomes meh.
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snakeman830

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #230 on: June 18, 2011, 07:59:02 PM »
I contest that Bloodstorm Blade (Tome of Battle) is best taken for 4 levels.  After that, it becomes meh.
You take it for 2, 4, or 10 levels (10 levels is awesome).  There are no other break points.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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zook1shoe

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #231 on: June 19, 2011, 12:11:18 AM »
Would Dread Witch go up to "tier +1" or "tier +2" if it had full casting?

EDIT: I noticed many of the 3.0 books are missing, in terms of un-updated PrCs. One of my personal favorites is in Lords of Darkness, the Zhentarim Skymage!
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 12:22:16 AM by zook1shoe »

stanprollyright

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #232 on: June 19, 2011, 02:18:21 AM »
I think Sublime Chord should be a +1 instead of +2.  Don't get me wrong, I really really love it, but it pretty much turns your tier 3 bard into a sorcerer, which is tier 2.  Sure, with bardic music and all of the ways to use it to better spellcasting you're a pretty powerful and slightly more versatile sorcerer, but you still suffer from a small list of spells known.  Isn't that the separation between tiers 1 and 2?  They are equal in power, but tier 1s are game breaking in every situation, and tier 2s are game breaking only in certain situations?

TenaciousJ

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #233 on: June 19, 2011, 02:32:36 AM »
Sublime Chord is powerful because you can get into with combinations of classes instead of just straight bard.  It's good for dual progression because of the fast advancement, and I'm sure others can point out more advantages.

zook1shoe

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #234 on: June 19, 2011, 02:40:10 AM »
Also its one of three exponential caster level progression prestige classes

stanprollyright

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #235 on: June 19, 2011, 02:52:24 AM »
Sublime Chord is powerful because you can get into with combinations of classes instead of just straight bard.  It's good for dual progression because of the fast advancement, and I'm sure others can point out more advantages.

Sure, there's plenty of advantages, it's a fantastic PrC, and a must for all high level bards.  The "typical entry" would have be straight or mostly bard, and I just don't think it breaks into tier 1.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #236 on: June 19, 2011, 11:03:18 AM »
Sublime Chord is powerful because you can get into with combinations of classes instead of just straight bard.  It's good for dual progression because of the fast advancement, and I'm sure others can point out more advantages.

Sure, there's plenty of advantages, it's a fantastic PrC, and a must for all high level bards.  The "typical entry" would have be straight or mostly bard, and I just don't think it breaks into tier 1.

I've played one, it's Tier 2 material on it's own.


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Suzerain

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #237 on: June 19, 2011, 04:46:48 PM »
I think Sublime Chord should be a +1 instead of +2.  Don't get me wrong, I really really love it, but it pretty much turns your tier 3 bard into a sorcerer, which is tier 2.  Sure, with bardic music and all of the ways to use it to better spellcasting you're a pretty powerful and slightly more versatile sorcerer, but you still suffer from a small list of spells known.  Isn't that the separation between tiers 1 and 2?  They are equal in power, but tier 1s are game breaking in every situation, and tier 2s are game breaking only in certain situations?

The PrC tiers are not meant to be taken literally. A sublime chord is not a Tier 1 character on its own. It still turns the Bard into a Sorcerer with benefits, which is damn good. Generally, the +2 classes boost their entry classes by at least one tier.



Also, I haven't completely forgotten this thread and I appreciate all the evaluations you've done since the last update. The reason I haven't just updated the tables and be done with it is because I want all of those evaluations discussed and a consensus be found. Ironically, I started this thread because sonofzeal didn't have time to regularly update it. Now I'm the one short on time (and energy).

I've been away for a week and I have things to catch up on. I can't guarantee there will be an update this week, but later this week I should be able to gauge when I'll be able to do that.

If you want to help out, there is three possibilities:
1) Keep posting evaluations for missing PrCs/books
2) Re-evaluate the evaluations of others. This helps lots in stirring up discussion and getting more eyes looked at a particular class.
3) You could take up the mantle yourself. Open a new thread, like I did, and start out. I do have a script somewhere that makes this job somewhat easier (in that it generates forum code from copy-pasted OO-tables), but you'll have to wait for this a little while. I don't have that much time, I haven't slept more than four hours a day this past week and I have lots of work to catch up to. Plus, the script is a hack job and I'd like to sanitize it before publication.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #238 on: June 19, 2011, 05:46:59 PM »
I might have mentioned this before, but the current numbering scheme really is misleading at best.  I'd prefer if it were just descriptors IE

Great
Good
Even
Bad
Worst

Or something like that.

There's also the fact that a +2 tiers PrC turns a tier 3 into a tier 2, not a tier 3 into a tier 5.
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zook1shoe

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #239 on: June 19, 2011, 07:02:32 PM »
I might have mentioned this before, but the current numbering scheme really is misleading at best.  I'd prefer if it were just descriptors IE

Great
Good
Even
Bad
Worst

Or something like that.

There's also the fact that a +2 tiers PrC turns a tier 3 into a tier 2, not a tier 3 into a tier 5.

I like that idea :)