Author Topic: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed  (Read 174011 times)

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  • Bi-Curious George
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Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« on: July 26, 2009, 12:52:15 PM »
Foreword by sonofzeal, who’s started this list:

Rating PrCs is difficult.  It's obvious that some provide too much and some provide too little, but which is which depends on a lot of factors - base class entry being the most obvious.  Where the difference between two "logical entries" is huge, those entries can be listed separately (see Rainbow Servant), but just like for base classes, a single PrC can go up or down based on optimization skill, and we should focus on what we see as the "average" use.  We should only list a PrC multiple times if the multiple entries are all simple and straightforward given the requirements, as anything else falls under the individual's optimization skill.

It's also difficult to categorize power.  Soulbow certainly adds more to Soulknives than Mindbender does to Sorcerers, but I think most will agree that a high level Mindbender will still beat a Soulbow with both arms tied behind its back.  Still, ranking them that way is merely repeating the obvious, that some base classes are better than other, down through the list of PrCs ad nauseum.  That's neither helpful nor productive.  Instead, it would make more sense to rate PrCs by how much advantage they give, over their "logical entries".  In other words, a PrC for Soulknives is held to a different standard than a PrC for Sorcerers, and the grade tells you how strongly you should consider taking that PrC, assuming you're already working on a build that could qualify. 

So for this, I'll be referring to Tiers and how the PrC changes them, but I'm aware that there's multiple Tier systems out there that differ in substantial ways, and that some of these gradings will put classes into places they just don't belong when taken literally.  A Tier 3 with an "up one" PrC wouldn't necessarily be a Tier 2, and a Tier 1 with a "down two" PrC would probably still be better than most Tier 3 classes.  There will also be classes that go off the top or bottom of the scale.  The goal is merely to make it clear that an "up two" is better than an "up one", and that both are only in reference to the starting point as given by the "logical entry".  To repeat: the ranking is not literal.  It's just a guideline to help novice or intermediate players know where to start looking.

Books included so far and average tier:
Book of Exalted Deeds+0.27
Book of Vile Darkness+0.53
Champions of Ruin+0
Champions of Valor+0.25
Complete Adventurer-0.04
Complete Arcane-0.05
Complete Divine+0.25
Complete Mage+0.55
Complete Psionics+0.44
Complete Scoundrel+0.43
Complete Warrior+0.11
Drow of the Underdark-1
Dungeon Master's Guide-0.38
Eberron Campaign Setting+0.63
Expanded Psionics Handbook+0.1
Expedition to the Demonweb Pits+1
Faiths and Pantheons+0.11
Faiths of Eberron+2
Heroes of Battle+0.25
Heroes of Horror+0.5
Libris Mortis-1
Lords of Madness+0.71
Lost Empires of Faerûn+0
Magic of Incarnum-0.17
Miniatures Handbook-0.29
Planar Handbook-0.11
Player's Guide to Faerûn-0.14
Races of Destiny+0.29
Races of Eberron+0.78
Races of Faerûn+0.29
Races of Stone+0.44
Races of the Dragon+0.4
Races of the Wild+0.5
Serpent Kingdoms+0
Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde+0
Shining South+0.22
Tome of Battle+0.13
Tome of Magic+0.25
Unapproachable East+0.55

This is the predecessor thread: Zeal's (in-progress) Tier System for PrCs. Inspired by the Tier System for Classes thread.

And some brave fellas have started cranking out reasonings for the ratings as follows:
Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.
Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers

Please help expand this resource by contributing ratings and taking part in the discussion.

Setting-neutral books still missing: Complete Champion, Dragon Magic, Dungeonscape, Fiend Folio, Ghostwalk and Weapons of Legacy.

Eberron books needed: Dragonmarked, Explorer's Handbook, Faiths of Eberron, Magic of Eberron, Player's Guide to Eberron, Secrets of Sarlona, Secrets of Xen'drik, Sharn: City of Towers

Faerun books left: City of Splendors: Waterdeep, Power of Faerun

An up-to-date version of the underlying spreadsheet is attached in *.ods (OpenOffice) format. The _copy suffix denotes this is not my working copy of the spreadsheet, but a static copy of one state of the document. The Excel file exceeded the file size restrictions and had to be zipped.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 08:46:07 AM by Suzerain »


  • Bi-Curious George
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Tier System for PrCs PrCs by-tier
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2009, 12:52:30 PM »
Up Two or More Tiers.  These PrCs improve the power of their entry classes dramatically, either by building on strengths or by adding powerful new ones.  Expect characters with these to blow their single-classed peers out of the water (and possibly get DM-smote, depending on the base class's power).
Anarchic InitiateCPsi
Anima MageToM
Champion of GwynharwyfBoED
Disciple of DispaterBoVD
Emissaries of BarachielBoED
Halruuan ElderShS
Hulking HurlerCW
Initiate of the Sevenfold VeilCA
Legendary Captain (if naval combat is required)Stormwrack
Moonspeaker (non-Druid entry)RoE
Planar ShepherdFoE
Rainbow Servant (Warmage entry)CD
Runescarred BerserkerUE
Sacred Exorcist (non-Cleric entry)CD
Sentinel of BharraiBoED
Shadowcraft MageRoS
Soul EaterBoVD
Sublime ChordCA
Tainted ScholarHoH
Telflammar ShadowlordUE
Thrall of JuiblexBoVD
Void DiscipleCD
Walker in the WasteSandstorm
War HulkMini
Warshaper (non-casting entry)CW

Up One Tier.  These PrCs generally improve their entry classes substantially, without radically affecting game balance.  Expect characters with these to be powerful allies or dangerous enemies, without totally overshadowing their single-classed peers.
Abjurant ChampionCM
Acolyte of the EgoToM
Aglarondan GriffonriderUE
Anointed KnightBoED
Arachnomancer (Monk capitalizing on poison)Und
Arcane HeirophantRotW
Ashworm Dragoon Sandstorm
Bear WarriorCW
Beloved of ValarianBoED
Blade BravoRoS
Bloodclaw MasterToB
Cabinet TricksterRoE
Cancer Mage (w/o abuse)BoVD
Celestial MysticBoED
Champion of Corellon LarethianRotW
Church InquisitorCD
Cognition Thief (Ardent or Wilder entry)PGtF
Cragtop ArcherRoS
Crinti Shadow MarauderShS
Daggerspell ShaperCAdv
Death DelverHoH
Defender of SealtielBoED
Demonwrecker EDP
Disciple of AsmodeusBoVD
Disciple of BaalzebulBoVD
Disciple of MephistophelesBoVD
Disciple of the EyeRotD
Disciple of the WordToM
Disciple of ThrymFrostburn
Divine CrusaderCD
Divine OracleCD
Divine PranksterRoS
Dragon Devotee (non-caster entry or 1 lvl dip)RotD
Dragonmark HeirECS
Dragonstalker (Dragon heavy game)Drc
Dread Fang of LolthDotU
Dread PirateCAdv
Drow JudicatorUnd
Drunken MasterCW
Earth DreamerRoS
Eldeen RangerECS
Elemental WarriorPlH
Enlightened FistCA
Eternal BladeToB
Exotic Weapons MasterCW
Eye of Horus-RePGtF
Fatemaker (worse for bards)PlH
Fist of Raziel BoED
Fochlucan Lyrist (evasion gained w/o CL loss)CAdv
Frenzied BerserkerCW
Frost Mage (Sorc entry)Frostburn
Ghost Faced KillerCAdv
Grey GuardCS
Halfling OutriderCW
Hammer of MoradinPGtF
Heir of Siberys ECS
Holy LiberatorCD
Holy ScourgeCM
Illumine SoulCPsi
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (AMF penetrates veils houserule)CA
Ironsoul ForgemasterMoI
Jade Phoenix MageToB
Justicar of TyrPGtF
Keeper of the Cerulean SignLoM
Knight of Sacred SealToM
Knight of the ChaliceCW
Knight ProtectorCW
Legendary CommandoHoB
Leviathan Hunter Stormwrack
Lion of TalisidBoED
Lyric ThaumaturgeCM
Mage of the Arcane OrderCA
Magelord (evasion gained w/o CL loss)LEoF
Magical TricksterCS
Master InquisitiveECS
Master of Many Forms (Ranger entry)CAdv
Master of Masks (Spellthief entry)CS
Master of ShadowToM
Master Specialist CM
Master ThrowerCW
Menacing BruteRoD
Moonspeaker (Druid)RoE
Mortal HunterBoVD
Nentyar HunterUE
Nightmare SpinnerCM
Nightsong EnforcerCAdv
Olin GisirLEoF
Orc WarlordRoF
Pale MasterLM
Prophet of Erathaol BoED
Psibond AgentCS
Psionic FistXPH
Quori NightmareRoE
Radiant Servant of PelorCD
Raumathari BattlemageUE
Rimefire WitchFrostburn
Risen MartyrBoED
Ruby Knight VindicatorToB
Sacred Exorcist (Cleric entry)CD
Sacred FistCD
Sanctified MindLoM
Sand Shaper (Sorc entry)Sandstorm
Scion of DantalionToM
Scion of Tem-Et-NuSandstorm
Scorpion HeritorSandstorm
Serene GuardianShattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Shadow Sun NinjaToB
Shadowbane Inquisitor (Blackguard entry)CAdv
Shadowbane StalkerCAdv
Shou DiscipleUE
Singer of ConcordanceRotD
Skullclan HunterMini
Slayer of DomielBoED
Spellguard of SilverymoonPGtF
Spellwarp SniperCS
Suel ArcanamachCA
Temple Raider of Olidammara (non-Rogue entry)CD
Thayan GladiatorCR
Thrall of DemogoronBoVD
Topaz Guardian (gish entry)LoM
Triadic KnightCV
Umbral DiscipleMoI
Unseen SeerCM
Urban Savant (non-Bard entry)Cityscape
Urban SoulRoD
Vassal of BahamutBoED
Vengeance KnightCR
War Mind (non-pure psi entries)XPH
War WeaverHoB
Warforged JuggernautECS
Warrior of DarknessBoVD
Warrior SkaldRoF
Wearer of PurpleF&P
Weretouched MasterECS
Wild Plains OutriderCAdv
Wild SoulCM
Winterhaunt of IborighuFrostburn
Witch Slayer (non-caster entry)ToM
Zerth CenobiteCPsi

Even.  These PrCs are roughly on par with their entry classes overall, trading strengths in certain areas for strengths in others, or provides moderate gains for a moderate investment (ie required feats or unfavorable multiclassing).  Expect characters with these to fit naturally into a single-classed party.
Animal LordCAdv
Arcane DevoteePGtF
Ardent DilettantePlH
Astral DancerPlH
Avenging ExecutionerCS
Battle TricksterCS
Black Blood HunterPGtF
Blood MagusCA
Child of NightToM
Cipher AdeptPlH
Cloud AncoriteFrostburn
Combat TrapsmithCS
Consecrated HarrierCD
Corrupt AvengerHoH
Cultist of the Shattered PeakLEoF
Daggerspell MageCAdv
Dark ScholarShattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Darkwood StalkerCW
Deep DivinerUnd
Deepstone SentinelToB
Demonbinder DotU
Disciple of MammonBoVD
Divine ChampionPGtF
Divine DisciplePGtF
Divine SeekerPGtF
Dragonslayer (Dragon heavy game, except as 1 lvl dip)Drc
Dragonsong lyristDrc
Dread CommandoHoB
Dread WitchHoH
Dwarven DefenderDMG
Ectopic Adept (only if CPsi nerfs are used already)CPsi
Eldritch DiscipleCM
Eldritch KnightDMG
Eldritch TheurgeCM
Elemental SavantCA
Elocater (PsiWar or PsiRogue entry)XPH
Exorcist of the Silver FlameECS
Eye of GruumshCW
Fang of SsethSK
Flayerspawn PsychicCPsi
Fortune's FriendCS
Frost Mage (Wizard entry)Frostburn
Frost RagerFrostburn
Gnome Giant-SlayerCW
Goliath LiberatorRoS
Great Rift Deep DefenderShS
Great Rift SkyguardRoF
Hand of the AdamaShS
Highland StalkerCAdv
Imaskari Vengeance TakerUnd
Initiate of the Draconic MysteriesDrc
Invisible BladeCW
Iron Mind (Ardent entry)RoS
Jordain VizierShS
Justice of Weald and WoeCR
Knight of Iron GlacierFrostburn
Knight of the Flying HuntCV
Knight of the PearlStormwrack
Knight of the WeaveCV
Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry)Sandstorm
Luiren MarchwardenShS
Magelord (regular entry)LEoF
Maiden of PainPGtF
Maquar CrusaderShS
Master of Masks (general entry)CS
Master of the Unseen Hand (ghost or similar)CW
Moonsea SkysentinelCV
Morninglord of LathanderPGtF
Nar DemonbinderUE
Nature's WarriorCW
Occult SlayerCW
Peregrine RunnerRoS
Pious Templar (except for 1 level dips)CD
Platinum Knight (Dragon heavy game)Drc
Prime Underdark GuideUnd
Psion UncarnateXPH
Purple Dragon KnightCW
Red WizardDMG
Sapphire HierarchMoI
Scar EnforcerRoD
Scourge MaidenShS
Seeker of the Misty IsleCD
Serpent SlayerSK
Shaaryan HunterPGtF
Shade HunterCR
Shadow AdeptPGtF
Shadow Thief of AmnPGtF
Shadowbane InquisitorCAdv
Shadowblade ToM
Spellcarved SoldierRoE
Spinemeld Warrior (non-incarnum entry)MoI
Stonedeath AssassinRoS
Stonespeaker GuardianRoS
Storm Disciple (Ardent dip entry)CPsi
Stormtalon (except for 1 level dips)RotW
Sword DancerF&P
Sword of RighteousnessBoED
Talontar BlightlordUE
Tattooed MonkCW
Temple Raider of Olidammara (Rogue entry)CD
Thayan KnightCW
Thayan SlaverUE
Thrall of OrcusBoVD
Totem RagerMoI
Twisted LordShattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Ultimate Magus (w/o fast entry tricks)CM
Uncanny TricksterCS
Vermin KeeperUnd
War ChanterCW
War Mind (pure PsiWar entry)XPH
Warshaper (casting entry)CW
Warsling SniperRoF
Wild MageCA
Witch Slayer (gish entry)ToM
Zhentarim SpyPGtF

Down One.  These PrCs are generally inferior to their obvious entry classes, losing out on important features in order to gain things that are likely not to matter in the long run.  Expect characters with these to struggle in a single-classed party.  They may still be viable for cherrypicking, or under heavy optimization.
Apostle of Peace (w/o VoP)BoED
Arcane TricksterDMG
Argent SavantCA
Black Blood CultistCR
Black Flame ZealotCD
Bloodstorm Blade (except 2 level dips)ToB
Cavestalker (Ranger entry)DotU
Celebrant of SharessPGtF
Cloaked DancerCS
Cognition Thief (other entry)PGtF
Combat MedicHoB
Dark HunterCW
Death's ChosenLM
Dragon DiscipleDMG
Dragon SamuraiMini
Dragonheart MageRotD
Dungeon DelverCAdv
Ebon SaintCPsi
Effigy MasterCA
Elemental ArchonF&P
Elocater (Psion entry)XPH
Enlightened SpiritCM
Evereskan Tomb GuardianPGtF
Exalted ArcanistBoED
Exemplar CAdv
Extreme ExplorerECS
Geomancer (varies greatly on entry)CD
Glorious ServitorLEoF
Halruuan MagehoundShS
Harper AgentPGtF
Harper ParagonPGtF
Havoc MageMini
Horizon WalkerDMG
Horned HarbingerF&P
Hunter of the DeadCW
Incandescent ChampionMoI
Initiate of Pistis SophiaBoED
Iron Mind (non-Ardent entry)RoS
Lord of Tides (Druid Entry)Sandstorm
Martyred Champion of IlmaterPGtF
Master of Many Forms (Druid entry)CAdv
Master of Nine (unless you can get some of the feats for "free")ToB
Master of RadianceLM
Master of ShroundsLM
Master of the YuirwoodUE
Master TransmogrifistCA
Monk of the Long DeathPGtF
Mystic TheurgeDMG
Nightmask DeathbringerCR
Nightsong InfiltratorCAdv
Ocular AdeptF&P
Order of the Bow InitiateCW
Outcast ChampionRoD
Platinum KnightDrc
Purifier of the Hallowed DoctrineHoH
Rage MageCW
Rainbow Servant (Sor/Wiz entry)CD
Sacred PurifierLM
Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry) Sandstorm
Scarlet Corsair (w/o capstone abuse)Stormwrack
Sea WitchStormwrack
Shadow SentinelRoD
Shining BladeCD
Slime LordPGtF
Spellsword (except for 1 level dips)CW
Stalker of KharashBoED
Storm Disciple (Pure Ardent entry)CPsi
Swanmay BoED
Tactical SoldierMini
Tenebrous ApostateToM
Thrall of Graz'ztBoVD
Topaz Guardian (caster entry)LoM
Troubadour of StarsBoED
Vermin LordBoVD
Visionary SeekerPlH
Wayfarer Guide (except for 1 level dips)CA
Yathchol WebriderUnd

Down Two or More Tiers.  These PrCs completely fail to do what they were trying to do, or makes heavy sacrifices for little to no gain.  Expect characters with these to be unplayable without heavy optimization effort, or some cunning trick.
Acolyte of the skinCA
Apostle of PeaceBoED
Arcane ArcherDMG
Bonded SummonerMini
Brimstone SpeakerToM
Cavestalker (Druid entry)DotU
Eye of LolthDotU
Fochlucan Lyrist (unless Evasion is gained without dips, then Up One Tier)CAdv
Forest MasterF&P
Green Star AdeptCA
Incarnum BladeMoI
Insidious Corruptor (Arcane Spellcaster entry)DotU
Master of the Unseen HandCW
Metamind (w/o capstone abuse)XPH
Mindbender (except for 1 level dips)CA
Necrocarnate (w/o infinite essentia abuse)MoI
Reaping MaulerCW
Solar ChannelerShattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Spinemeld Warrior (incarnum entry)MoI
Talon of TiamatDrc
True NecromancerLM
Witchborn BinderMoI
Wonderworker BoED
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 09:39:57 PM by Suzerain »


  • Bi-Curious George
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Tier System for PrCs PrCs by-book
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2009, 12:52:44 PM »
Book of Exalted Deeds
Champion of Gwynharwyf+2
Emissaries of Barachiel+2
Sentinel of Bharrai+2
Anointed Knight+1
Beloved of Valarian+1
Celestial Mystic+1
Defender of Sealtiel+1
Fist of Raziel +1
Lion of Talisid+1
Prophet of Erathaol +1
Risen Martyr+1
Slayer of Domiel+1
Vassal of Bahamut+1
Sword of Righteousness+0
Apostle of Peace (w/o VoP)-1
Exalted Arcanist-1
Initiate of Pistis Sophia-1
Stalker of Kharash-1
Swanmay -1
Troubadour of Stars-1
Apostle of Peace-2
Wonderworker -2

Book of Vile Darkness
Disciple of Dispater+2
Soul Eater+2
Thrall of Juiblex+2
Cancer Mage (w/o abuse)+1
Disciple of Asmodeus+1
Disciple of Baalzebul+1
Disciple of Mephistopheles+1
Mortal Hunter+1
Thrall of Demogoron+1
Warrior of Darkness+1
Disciple of Mammon+0
Thrall of Orcus+0
Thrall of Graz'zt-1
Vermin Lord-1

Champions of Ruin
Thayan Gladiator+1
Vengeance Knight+1
Justice of Weald and Woe+0
Shade Hunter+0
Black Blood Cultist-1
Nightmask Deathbringer-1

Champions of Valor
Triadic Knight+1
Knight of the Flying Hunt+0
Knight of the Weave+0
Moonsea Skysentinel+0

Urban Savant (non-Bard entry)+1

Complete Adventurer
Daggerspell Shaper+1
Dread Pirate+1
Fochlucan Lyrist (evasion gained w/o CL loss)+1
Ghost Faced Killer+1
Master of Many Forms (Ranger entry)+1
Nightsong Enforcer+1
Shadowbane Inquisitor (Blackguard entry)+1
Shadowbane Stalker+1
Wild Plains Outrider+1
Animal Lord+0
Daggerspell Mage+0
Highland Stalker+0
Shadowbane Inquisitor+0
Dungeon Delver-1
Exemplar -1
Master of Many Forms (Druid entry)-1
Nightsong Infiltrator-1
Fochlucan Lyrist (unless Evasion is gained without dips, then Up One Tier)-2

Complete Arcane
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil+2
Sublime Chord+2
Enlightened Fist+1
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (AMF penetrates veils houserule)+1
Mage of the Arcane Order+1
Suel Arcanamach+1
Blood Magus+0
Elemental Savant+0
Wild Mage+0
Argent Savant-1
Effigy Master-1
Master Transmogrifist-1
Wayfarer Guide (except for 1 level dips)-1
Acolyte of the skin-2
Green Star Adept-2
Mindbender (except for 1 level dips)-2

Complete Divine
Rainbow Servant (Warmage entry)+2
Sacred Exorcist (non-Cleric entry)+2
Void Disciple+2
Church Inquisitor+1
Divine Crusader+1
Divine Oracle+1
Holy Liberator+1
Radiant Servant of Pelor+1
Sacred Exorcist (Cleric entry)+1
Sacred Fist+1
Temple Raider of Olidammara (non-Rogue entry)+1
Consecrated Harrier+0
Pious Templar (except for 1 level dips)+0
Seeker of the Misty Isle+0
Temple Raider of Olidammara (Rogue entry)+0
Black Flame Zealot-1
Geomancer (varies greatly on entry)-1
Rainbow Servant (Sor/Wiz entry)-1
Shining Blade-1

Complete Mage
Abjurant Champion+1
Holy Scourge+1
Lyric Thaumaturge+1
Master Specialist +1
Nightmare Spinner+1
Unseen Seer+1
Wild Soul+1
Eldritch Disciple+0
Eldritch Theurge+0
Ultimate Magus (w/o fast entry tricks)+0
Enlightened Spirit-1

Complete Psionics
Anarchic Initiate+2
Illumine Soul+1
Zerth Cenobite+1
Ectopic Adept (only if CPsi nerfs are used already)+0
Flayerspawn Psychic+0
Storm Disciple (Ardent dip entry)+0
Ebon Saint-1
Storm Disciple (Pure Ardent entry)-1

Complete Scoundrel
Grey Guard+1
Magical Trickster+1
Master of Masks (Spellthief entry)+1
Psibond Agent+1
Spellwarp Sniper+1
Avenging Executioner+0
Battle Trickster+0
Combat Trapsmith+0
Fortune's Friend+0
Master of Masks (general entry)+0
Uncanny Trickster+0
Cloaked Dancer-1

Complete Warrior
Hulking Hurler+2
Warshaper (non-casting entry)+2
Bear Warrior+1
Drunken Master+1
Exotic Weapons Master+1
Frenzied Berserker+1
Halfling Outrider+1
Knight of the Chalice+1
Knight Protector+1
Master Thrower+1
Darkwood Stalker+0
Eye of Gruumsh+0
Gnome Giant-Slayer+0
Invisible Blade+0
Master of the Unseen Hand (ghost or similar)+0
Nature's Warrior+0
Occult Slayer+0
Purple Dragon Knight+0
Tattooed Monk+0
Thayan Knight+0
War Chanter+0
Warshaper (casting entry)+0
Dark Hunter-1
Hunter of the Dead-1
Order of the Bow Initiate-1
Rage Mage-1
Spellsword (except for 1 level dips)-1
Master of the Unseen Hand-2
Reaping Mauler-2

Dragonstalker (Dragon heavy game)+1
Dragonslayer (Dragon heavy game, except as 1 lvl dip)+0
Dragonsong lyrist+0
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries+0
Platinum Knight (Dragon heavy game)+0
Platinum Knight-1
Talon of Tiamat-2

Drow of the Underdark
Dread Fang of Lolth+1
Demonbinder +0
Cavestalker (Ranger entry)-1
Cavestalker (Druid entry)-2
Eye of Lolth-2
Insidious Corruptor (Arcane Spellcaster entry)-2

Dungeon Master's Guide
Dwarven Defender+0
Eldritch Knight+0
Red Wizard+0
Arcane Trickster-1
Dragon Disciple-1
Horizon Walker-1
Mystic Theurge-1
Arcane Archer-2

Eberron Campaign Setting
Dragonmark Heir+1
Eldeen Ranger+1
Heir of Siberys +1
Master Inquisitive+1
Warforged Juggernaut+1
Weretouched Master+1
Exorcist of the Silver Flame+0
Extreme Explorer-1

Expanded Psionics Handbook
Psionic Fist+1
War Mind (non-pure psi entries)+1
Elocater (PsiWar or PsiRogue entry)+0
Psion Uncarnate+0
War Mind (pure PsiWar entry)+0
Elocater (Psion entry)-1
Metamind (w/o capstone abuse)-2

Expedition to the Demonweb Pits
Demonwrecker +1

Faiths and Pantheons
Wearer of Purple+1
Sword Dancer+0
Elemental Archon-1
Horned Harbinger-1
Ocular Adept-1
Forest Master-2

Faiths of Eberron
Planar Shepherd+2

Disciple of Thrym+1
Frost Mage (Sorc entry)+1
Rimefire Witch+1
Winterhaunt of Iborighu+1
Cloud Ancorite+0
Frost Mage (Wizard entry)+0
Frost Rager+0
Knight of Iron Glacier+0

Heroes of Battle
Legendary Commando+1
War Weaver+1
Dread Commando+0
Combat Medic-1

Heroes of Horror
Tainted Scholar+2
Death Delver+1
Corrupt Avenger+0
Dread Witch+0
Purifier of the Hallowed Doctrine-1

Libris Mortis
Pale Master+1
Death's Chosen-1
Master of Radiance-1
Master of Shrounds-1
Sacred Purifier-1
True Necromancer-2

Lords of Madness
Keeper of the Cerulean Sign+1
Sanctified Mind+1
Topaz Guardian (gish entry)+1
Topaz Guardian (caster entry)-1

Magelord (evasion gained w/o CL loss)+1
Olin Gisir+1
Cultist of the Shattered Peak+0
Magelord (regular entry)+0
Glorious Servitor-1

Magic of Incarnum
Ironsoul Forgemaster+1
Umbral Disciple+1
Sapphire Hierarch+0
Spinemeld Warrior (non-incarnum entry)+0
Totem Rager+0
Incandescent Champion-1
Incarnum Blade-2
Necrocarnate (w/o infinite essentia abuse)-2
Spinemeld Warrior (incarnum entry)-2
Witchborn Binder-2

Miniatures Handbook
War Hulk+2
Skullclan Hunter+1
Dragon Samurai-1
Havoc Mage-1
Tactical Soldier-1
Bonded Summoner-2

Planar Handbook
Elemental Warrior+1
Fatemaker (worse for bards)+1
Ardent Dilettante+0
Astral Dancer+0
Cipher Adept+0
Visionary Seeker-1

Cognition Thief (Ardent or Wilder entry)+1
Eye of Horus-Re+1
Hammer of Moradin+1
Justicar of Tyr+1
Spellguard of Silverymoon+1
Arcane Devotee+0
Black Blood Hunter+0
Divine Champion+0
Divine Disciple+0
Divine Seeker+0
Maiden of Pain+0
Morninglord of Lathander+0
Shaaryan Hunter+0
Shadow Adept+0
Shadow Thief of Amn+0
Zhentarim Spy+0
Celebrant of Sharess-1
Cognition Thief (other entry)-1
Evereskan Tomb Guardian-1
Harper Agent-1
Harper Paragon-1
Martyred Champion of Ilmater-1
Monk of the Long Death-1
Slime Lord-1

Races of Destiny
Menacing Brute+1
Urban Soul+1
Scar Enforcer+0
Outcast Champion-1
Shadow Sentinel-1

Races of Eberron
Moonspeaker (non-Druid entry)+2
Cabinet Trickster+1
Moonspeaker (Druid)+1
Quori Nightmare+1
Spellcarved Soldier+0

Orc Warlord+1
Warrior Skald+1
Great Rift Skyguard+0
Warsling Sniper+0

Races of Stone
Shadowcraft Mage+2
Blade Bravo+1
Cragtop Archer+1
Divine Prankster+1
Earth Dreamer+1
Goliath Liberator+0
Iron Mind (Ardent entry)+0
Peregrine Runner+0
Stonedeath Assassin+0
Stonespeaker Guardian+0
Iron Mind (non-Ardent entry)-1

Races of the Dragon
Disciple of the Eye+1
Dragon Devotee (non-caster entry or 1 lvl dip)+1
Singer of Concordance+1
Dragonheart Mage-1

Races of the Wild
Arcane Heirophant+1
Champion of Corellon Larethian+1
Stormtalon (except for 1 level dips)+0

Walker in the Waste+2
Ashworm Dragoon +1
Sand Shaper (Sorc entry)+1
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu+1
Scorpion Heritor+1
Lord of Tides (Cleric Entry)+0
Lord of Tides (Druid Entry)-1
Sand Shaper (Wiz Entry) -1

Serpent Kingdoms
Fang of Sseth+0
Serpent Slayer+0

Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde
Serene Guardian+1
Dark Scholar+0
Twisted Lord+0
Solar Channeler-2

Shining South
Halruuan Elder+2
Crinti Shadow Marauder+1
Great Rift Deep Defender+0
Hand of the Adama+0
Jordain Vizier+0
Luiren Marchwarden+0
Maquar Crusader+0
Scourge Maiden+0
Halruuan Magehound-1

Legendary Captain (if naval combat is required)+2
Leviathan Hunter +1
Knight of the Pearl+0
Scarlet Corsair (w/o capstone abuse)-1
Sea Witch-1

Tome of Battle
Bloodclaw Master+1
Eternal Blade+1
Jade Phoenix Mage+1
Ruby Knight Vindicator+1
Shadow Sun Ninja+1
Deepstone Sentinel+0
Bloodstorm Blade (except 2 level dips)-1
Master of Nine (unless you can get some of the feats for "free")-1

Tome of Magic
Anima Mage+2
Acolyte of the Ego+1
Disciple of the Word+1
Knight of Sacred Seal+1
Master of Shadow+1
Scion of Dantalion+1
Witch Slayer (non-caster entry)+1
Child of Night+0
Shadowblade +0
Witch Slayer (gish entry)+0
Tenebrous Apostate-1
Brimstone Speaker-2

Unapproachable East
Runescarred Berserker+2
Telflammar Shadowlord+2
Aglarondan Griffonrider+1
Nentyar Hunter+1
Raumathari Battlemage+1
Shou Disciple+1
Nar Demonbinder+0
Talontar Blightlord+0
Thayan Slaver+0
Master of the Yuirwood-1

Arachnomancer (Monk capitalizing on poison)+1
Drow Judicator+1
Deep Diviner+0
Imaskari Vengeance Taker+0
Prime Underdark Guide+0
Vermin Keeper+0
Yathchol Webrider-1
« Last Edit: October 04, 2009, 09:42:28 PM by Suzerain »


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Tier System for PrCs #4
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2009, 12:52:58 PM »
Reserved just in case I find something useful to do with this space.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 01:35:31 PM by Suzerain »


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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2009, 11:32:40 PM »
Great job formatting.  This is a really useful resource.


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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2009, 11:46:05 PM »
I might be even tempted to drop solar channeler down to -2, since you lose three levels of casting, and gain nothing of value. 

Your class features lets you transform into something that's less powerful.  Oh, and you can't use your magic items.  And it costs a turn attempt per minute.

Seriously, there's no reason why you'd want to take it. 
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 02:33:06 AM »
Explorer's Handbook (Eberron supplement)

Cataclysm Mage [+1]
Logical Entry: Wizard 5 (many of its abilities are actually tied to Intelligence, not Charisma. This makes Sorcerer a much worse choice)

Reasoning: Very easy to qualify with DM cooperation or just a clever backstory ("must have had a vision"). 9/10 Spellcasting progression and you gain some odd AoE-damage dealing abilities and some odd bonuses, but the capstone ability: Choose any dragonmark from lesser to greater, which you may change each day. Catch? The dragons WILL kill you (it's not even a part of "CM in the world", it's a part of the ability that makes Eberron dragons want to kill you. Bad) when they know that you have this dragonmark-for-free abiliy.

For those of you who aren't familiar with dragonmarks, it translates roughly to: true seeing, find the path, animal growth, SNA V, heal, heroes' feast, mage's magnificent mansion, fabricate, major creation, overland flight, teleport, sending, globe of invulnerability, mislead, prying eyes, shadow walk, control winds, control weather, mage's faithful hound, greater glyph of warding OR guards and wards once per day. And that's just Greater Dragonmarks, and you can even take the Mark of Death, which requires much DM cooperation (can make someone a Lich upon death, if the legends are correct).

Any one of them, plus various bonuses and destructive abilities based on Intelligence (unlike many other PrCs with similar abilities) makes it a very potent wizard, especially if you are an Eberron person.

The catch (yet again): You must fulfill "personal prophecies" laid out in the class description to advance in the class. This includes easy tasks such as "Be swallowed whole" and "Die", but also more cryptic adventures such as "speak with a giant who never dreams" etc etc (total of 12). Therefore, unless your DM and fellow players are willing to cooperate (or unless you start at ECL 15 or higher), you may have some problems there.

Overall, a very, very nice class whose capstone ability gives you a virtual 6th-level or lower spell slot with predetermined spell-like abilities in them. Be careful around dragons though. They'll hate you for taking that capstone ability.

Also: this class (if it advances infusions) can enable you to make a Warforged Artificer 7/CM 10/Cannith Wand Adept 3, because you'll meet the dragonmark requirement of CWA then.

Thunder Guide [-1]
Logical Entry: Fighter 4, Barbarian 4, Ranger 4, Rogue 6 and so on. Not that hard to qualify, not that much to gain either.

Reasoning: 3/4 BAB and good Fort. Lets you gain some negligible bonuses based on your choices of "Thunder lore" and "Native ties" abilities, and the capstone ability makes you famous. Really! The capstone ability lets you use the title of "Lord" (or "Lady") in any of the Four Nations (r.i.p. Cyre), and lets you use transports for free. You're so famous that those "companies" (dragonmarked houses) benefit from just the fact that you were onboard with their transport. That's the capstone ability of the class.

If you haven't quite grasped the gist of it, the one before that (9th-level) gives you money. 1,000gp per point of Charisma you have, and that's the brand loyalty to write your stories in the most popular newspaper in the whole continent. Everyone in the world will know and love the over-the-top descriptions of your daring adventures.

So if you want to play a class that's actually based on gaining fame and fortune as its class ability, it's the class for you. CO perspective? Not so hot. Unless you want to play a guy called Guybrush Threepwood, because you can hold your breath for 1 minute per point of Constitution. Yes, you can hold your breath for ten minutes.

Windwright Captain [-2]
Logical Entry: Half-elf bard 7, artificer 7

Reasoning: 3/5 spellcasting progression (specifically advances infusion) that lets you control your own airship like it's your own body. I mean, really. You have to pay up to 9k XP to actually access the abilities that makes this class unique. So unless you're going to name your own airship Millenium Falcon and be a super-pilot, stay well away from the class.

2 levels of the class might be worth it if you want to borrow an airship indefinitely though. I'd just spend 92k and forget about it myself.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 02:39:58 AM by Salt_Crow »

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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 02:40:59 AM »
Shadowsun Ninja should be either +0 or +1 (Dmna's Monk builds only). +0 because no one in their right mind uses the capstone, but the rest of the class features are decent (especially the healing and Darkness ability), +1 because an optimized Monk can deal a shit ton of Negative and Positive energy with each attack. Any build that can deal 12d8+Str+Wis negative energy damage per hit and then turn around and heal an ally equal to the negative energy damage dealt is not a -1 PrC.


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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 03:19:22 AM »
I actually disagree about the Initiate of Pistis Sophia:

This class stacks the monk AC bonus, the unarmed strike damage, the flurry of blows, the speed and the ki strike progression (so that your ki strike could still be considered adamantine). Yes, a lot of Monk PrCs advance most monk abilities (AC bonus, unarmed strike, flurry, speed etc.) but not all advance the ki strike progression.

So, if a Monk multiclassed into Initiate of Pistis Sophia by 16 level (he can enter the class at 6) he could lose wholeness of body (which good but could easily be taken with one more monk level), diamond body, diamond soul, quivering palm, tongue of the sun of moon (while a nice ability fluff-wise, it's not that important if you're not the party face), empty body, perfect self, timeless body and the slow fall progression (but who cares about slow fall?), he could still get improved evasion and he would instead get detect evil at will (handy but not great of course), a smite attack (not so useful though), electricity resistance (not so big but still good), uncanny and improved uncanny dodge (always good in my book), celestial transformation (outsider (native) type and DR 10/evil) and 4 bonus feats (Fist of the Heavens and 3 sacred vows).

If you make the math it actually trades 8 class features for 10 class features (3 bonus sacred vows among them). Yes, sacred vows are restrictive but they give a lot of bonuses as well so if you're effectively planning on turning your Monk into a celestial that's the best way to do it. Also, if you wanted to take sacred vows with your Monk, this PrC could help you being less feat-intensive and save some space for feats like Touch of Golden Ice ;)

Overally, I believe that it is in no way a -1 PrC. I think that it's in the borders of weak +1 to strong +0.
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2009, 06:40:27 AM »
Heyhey there!  What's been going on in my lengthy absence? =P  If this is a subtle hint to update the list more, then I can get around to it some day.  I'm more than happy to see someone else take the helm though!

Book:  Fiend Folio

"Fiend of Blasphemy" - Totally focussed on getting people to do the ritual with you, but pretty sweet in the right context.  Highly campaign dependent, but I'd call it Equal to Up One, erring on the side of Up One just because of how well the mechanics support and augment the flavour.  Give this to a player in a freeform social campaign, and they'll take over the world in a year.

"Fiend of Corruption" - Grants wishes.  Up Two.  

"Fiend of Possession" - Possess a magic sword, give it +5 in properties it didn't already have, make it an Animated Object, get to Bestow Curse on anyone you hit, and if the sword breaks then you can just possess something else instead.  And that's before you start possession entire rooms, or people.  Up Two.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 06:47:14 AM by sonofzeal »


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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 06:45:31 AM »
Secrets of Xen'drik

Landforged Walker [-1] with Druid; [+1] with Cleric

Logical Entry: Cleric 5 (with Travel domain), Druid 5

Reasoning: 4/5 divine spellcasting progression, so you aren't losing all that much. What do you get in return? Body of Nature allows you to be your own holy symbol (no more O-chul style sunder), get some nice defensive bonuses (elemental resistance, natural armour increase and 50% fortification) and the ability to heal yourself or others up to 5xWis bonus 3 times a day (so lay on hands-like ability). This is already quite nice (although not worth that 1 CL loss) but the rest of the class abilities look rather duplicable (spell-like abilities 1/day etc etc) until you get Plant Shape.

Plant shape works as WS (plants)- 3/day, small to huge using total character level as effective druid level! This wouldn't be so hot for a druid who can just stick to the class and be much more effective. However, for clerics or rangers even, this is a great deal. A cleric for example, could WS into a huge Treant to cast spell normally (has hands and can speak) and wield weapons (armour not needed), as early as 10th level (a druid would get to do this at 15th level)!

I mean, this isn't as game-breaking as dweomerkeepers and co. and you do lose 1 CL for this. But for a melee-focused warforged cleric (w/ travel domain), this can definitely be an awesome choice indeed.

Primal Scholar [+0]

Logical Entry: Wizard 7

Reasoning: full spellcasting PrC (5/5), so as a wizard you're missing out on a few bonus feats. You get bardic knowledge-like ability wrt Xen'drik and gain a handful of mostly action point-related ancient secrets and power of Xen'drik. Things like Secret of Defiance (+1 competence bonus on saving throws against spells and spell-like abilities) or Mystery of Magic (choose 1 spell to cast spontaneously without preparing beforehand; up to spell level=class level only) would stand out as they do not need AP to fuel the use.

A flaw with this class would be the fact that it needs AP to fuel many of its abilities, so unless you have Unfettered Heroism going at all times, it's not going to make your wizard any better than it otherwise would. Also, as you cannot take the same ancient secret twice, you'll have to be careful which one to take as your 5th-level ancient secret.

Overall, +0 as it wouldn't be any better or worse than a straight wizard.

Scorpion Wraith [-1]

Logical Entry: Ranger 5

Reasoning: no spellcasting progression but full BAB. Notable abilities include 1/day blindsight (lasting 5+wis round) and 1+wis/day Poison (DC 15+wis) ability. Apart from them, sudden strike and some things that lets you ambush others better... but seriously, how many times is a PC going to ambush NPCs?

When the element of surprise is lost, so is most of the class features.


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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 06:48:44 AM »
Another note for the fiend of corruption: It's the only way to get fiendish symbiotes without DM action.  Including the awesome fiendish familiar.
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2009, 06:59:41 AM »
I'd put the Spellguard of Silverymoon at +1 at least, as it progresses Metamagic faster than a straight Wizard or Sorcerer, and also gives an Archmage High Arcana (+1 Spell Power) for free, and none of that ties to the mythal.  Actually, nothing in the class save the token ties it to the mythal, and if it's in backstory, it's definitely +1 at least, IMHO.
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2009, 07:10:01 AM »
I have to say, I have always found this tier system to be much more valid than the base class system for the sole reason that it takes multi-classes into account (ie logical entry class) and I am thankful the Zeal's pet project is back and running.

I'll do an easy one

Dungeon Lord (from dungeonscape)
entry class: any "baddy" race with a castle or dungeon that needs defending.  Technically, a Elan or Synad could take this PrC since they are aberrations but mostly this will be a mind flayer or dragon, although a campign where you are an Elan defending yourself in a world where everything is trying to invade you might have its merits.

This will most likely be the BBEG of the Dungeon.  Not only is a formidable boss but he can boost his troops (horde lord gives +1-2 bonus on AR and damage to all your minions), get better ones (boost to leadership), teleport all over the you home and clairvoyance AT WILL (scales with your HD too not your class levels).  When these five levels are added to an young dragon with and army of goblins the bonuses add up.

Dungeon mastery is a great feature that allows you open and close doors as a free action, treat all terrain as smooth and not set off traps when you pass by them.  Dungeon minion lets your minions get all the same benefits (except for not setting off traps).

I would say this is a solid +1 and would be +2 if it was not so dependent on the specific dungeon. Now if your BBEG had the whole underdark as his dungeon......


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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2009, 07:26:48 AM »
Take the dungeon with you.  It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2009, 07:29:58 AM »
Take the dungeon with you.  It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.

For extra fun be a Tomb Warden too, and have the dungeon also be a tomb.


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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2009, 07:31:21 AM »
Take the dungeon with you.  It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.

For extra fun be a Tomb Warden too, and have the dungeon also be a tomb.
Well, duh.  And be a Hathran as well, and have a cohort who's a diplomat from Rasheman set up the place as his embassy.
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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2009, 07:34:59 AM »
Take the dungeon with you.  It's what being a stronghold builder is all about.
Well nothing says that you can't have a new dungeon or more than one dungeon at a time.  So you could acquire a new dungeon "on the fly".  Like Gandulf during the siege of Gondor or something.  The race requirements is the only tricky part.


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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2009, 03:49:50 PM »
As a suggestion: Put the logical entry class you considered for the evaluation as an entry in the sorted tables. Or even make another table based on entry classes.


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Re: Tier System for PrCs - Your help needed
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2009, 09:32:39 PM »
As a suggestion: Put the logical entry class you considered for the evaluation as an entry in the sorted tables. Or even make another table based on entry classes.
Problem - sometimes the logical entry is specific, and sometimes it's general, and sometimes it's complicated.  Ghost Faced Killer is compared to "Ninja", but Suel Arcanamach is compared to "any non-caster", and War Mind is compared to "multiclassed psi / non-psi".  I don't see an easy way to sort these things.