Is multiclassing worth it?

[SixthDeclension]

To get the full benefits of multiclassing, you must spend three feats, and even then you can only multiclass between two classes. Are the payoffs that great for half of your pre-paragon feats? I'm still skeptic about 4e, but it doesnt make much sense to me. From a min/max optimizers view, how good are the multiclassing rules?

[DaveTheMagicWeasel]

It's shit.

I'm so glad we moved forums - no way could I express my opinion on this bag of wank with a swear filter in the way.

Let's take an example shall we:

I'm trying to convert a 3.5 Dragonborn Cleric / PrC Pally into a 4e Paladin who multiclasses as a Warlord.  That should make sense right?  Not too much of a stretch of the character concept?

So, I spend 1 feat and get a skill and Inspiring Word 1/day - well whoop de fucking do!  But that's not the bad bit; in order for multiclassing to be worth the feat slots the powers you swap for have to be better than the ones you're getting rid of, right?  Well, the best Warlord powers are the ones with extra effects keyed off of your Inspiring/Tactical Presence choice, but since there's absolutely no fucking way of getting that class ability when you multiclass, the Warlord powers you can choose from are thoroughly underwhelming choices!

Oh, and remember, this is when I'm trying to build a Paladin/Warlord.  I can't afford a decent Wis, coz the MAD of the Cleric and Paladin is a fucking joke, so most of the Paladin powers are pretty shit from where I'm standing, but despite that the Warlord powers I could swap them for are shit as well!

Which fuckstick designed this crap?

At least in 3.5 you could multiclass and dip to salvage a poor class - no chance now!  It's like wotc thought the multiclassing was causing the imbalance, when in actual fact the multiclassing was caused by their own inability to write a class worth sticking with!

I'm ending up thinking my 3.5 Dragonborn Paladin is better served by converting to a Fighter, because the class doesn't suck as much as the Paladin.  But to be a Dragonborn Fighter is shooting yourself in the foot - you don't need the Cha boost, and the Fighter can cut minons to ribbons without needing a breath weapon.  In fact, if you're anything other than a Dwarf as a Fighter you're shooting yourself in the foot!  Getting rid of the flexibility in the system won't solve the "problem" of optimization, it'll just drastically reduce the number of optimal character set ups and force people to play the same old characters over and over and over!

AAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!   

The one multiclass feat that might be worth it imo is the Paladin one - since Divine Challenge lasts until you use it on someone else, having it 1/encounter isn't such a problem - use it to mark a solo/elite is all.  Other than that, spending 1 feat for a Paragon path you like might be a good deal, I can't see multiclassing being much use beyond that.

Come back 3.5!  All is forgiven!

[SixthDeclension]

That was what I expected from people. I dont mind because I dont plan on switching over anyways...
But bring on the rants.

[AlienFromBeyond]

To get the full benefits of multiclassing, you must spend three feats, and even then you can only multiclass between two classes. Are the payoffs that great for half of your pre-paragon feats? I'm still skeptic about 4e, but it doesnt make much sense to me. From a min/max optimizers view, how good are the multiclassing rules?

From what I've read going all the way for a Paragon multiclass sucks, giving up a Paragon path isn't worth it. Just the first feat is enough, letting you get the paragon paths and feats for that class. Though Press the Advantage is the only class specific feat that really works when multiclassing. Being able to take Blood Mage as a Warlock, or Radiant Servant with a Paladin, that's where the awesomeness lies. Or a Ranger Warpriest to take advantage of Blade Cascade.

[Caelic]

As far as I can tell, though, you can't ever multiclass into a Ranger paragon path, which is kind of weird.

[AlienFromBeyond]

As far as I can tell, though, you can't ever multiclass into a Ranger paragon path, which is kind of weird.

Hell, Warlocks can only pick one paragon path unless they multiclass!

[LogicNinja]

Dave, you are seriously fucking wrong.

I will explain to you why you are seriously fucking wrong, in great fucking detail.

I will do it later.

[Meg]

'K, my take is that we just all have to accept that there is no multiclassing in 4e.  There is an option to take a couple of qualities from other classes, but it's not multiclassing.

The support groups will be held in room B13 and start at 6:30 on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Saturdays. 

[SixthDeclension]

Mondays and Wednesdays dont work for me...How about Tuesdays and Thursdays?

[LogicNinja]

'K, my take is that we just all have to accept that there is no multiclassing in 4e.  There is an option to take a couple of qualities from other classes, but it's not multiclassing.

The support groups will be held in room B13 and start at 6:30 on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Saturdays. 

This one, on the other hand, I'll field now.

What do you mean, there's no multiclassing? Look, you get ~1/3rd of your powers from another class, and they scale. Your *best power* can be from another class. And the second-best, and the third. If you're serious about multiclassing and keep at it instead of taking a paragon path, you've got basically 2/5th of your powers from another class. And you're good at both things at once--it scales. It's not like dipping Wizard 1 (which is apparently multiclassing) and being stuck with first-level spell; you trade those spells up for better spells as you go. You are good at two things at once (in exchange for not being quite as good at either). How is that not multiclassing? Because you're not "taking a level" of it? Sounds like wanting form over function, to me.

[DaveTheMagicWeasel]

Dave, you are seriously fucking wrong.

I will explain to you why you are seriously fucking wrong, in great fucking detail.

I will do it later.

By all means go ahead.

Maybe other combos work, I haven't been through it all yet, but so far I've tried various permutations of Paladin, Warlord and Fighter at Heroic levels and it seems a complete waste of feats no matter which way I try it.  I want a heroic tank who leads from the front, not such an out there character concept imo, but every angle I try fails and I hit a brick wall - I can't get synergistic abilities in the same character, and I really hate that I can't access class abilities from more than one class - not even with the Paragon multi-classing ffs!

I've ended up concluding that a Fighter with Paladin multiclass powers is the closest approximation I can get to my concept (the MAD of the Paladin is totally putting me off using it as a base).  But multiclassing across "roles" seems incredibly hard.  I don't want to be straitjacketed into these roles, I want to be able to make versatile characters, double, triple, quadruple threats.

It's not the powers I want (the powers all seem pretty lame to me, for every class) - I want the class features.  Is a Paladin with Inspiring Presence really so game breaking that it had to be ruled out completely?  Because without it opening up access to Warlord powers is a piss poor investment of feats because the enhanced benefits all require Commanding Presence to trigger - similar to the Ranger Paragon paths being closed off to multiclassers, like they slapped a multiclass section in at the last minute without having really thought it through.

[Meg]

This one, on the other hand, I'll field now.

What do you mean, there's no multiclassing?

Semantics mostly, but multiclassing as we knew it is gone.

I think of multiclassing as having multiple classes.  That's not an option in 4e.  You can borrow a couple of powers from another class, but you can't take a level in one. 

So how about BorrowClassing?  Or Multifeaturing? 

[Dan2]

Are we looking for words to mean this new muticlassing style now? 

How about Cherryclassing?  Flavoring?

I can see it now: "Start with a warlock and cherryclass into wizard to pick up blood mage..." :wink 

[Runestar]

Considering that the novice feats let me freely swap in new powers at every lv without eating into my 1 retrain/lv cap, it seems useful in allowing me more leeway in customizing my powers.

However, the problem then comes with choosing synergistic combinations. For example, when I tried putting a fighter/wizard together, I was put off by the fighter exploits requiring str, and the wizard spells needing int and wis (to a lesser extent), and that one required me to be in melee, while the other was ranged.

Then came a wizard/cleric, but alas, no race granting int+wis bonuses (because I required good int/wis/cha to make that blood mage/thunderous word combo work. Plus, being able to swap out meteor swarm for astral storm...

At the moment, a paladin/cleric combination seems interesting. Both share similar stats, but their powers seem to share some overlap. Haven't tried the fighter/paladin combo yet.

Hmm...

[Kuroimaken]

Well, I just had my first run with a half-elf level 1 Star Warlock with the Sneak of the Shadows feat. I took up Sneak of the Shadows because between getting a skill trained and getting a skill trained AND a power, it seemed like a no-brainer to me. For a moment, though, I misread the entry for the feat and thought I had to choose an at-will power instead.

Thank heavens that wasn't the case!

I couldn't find a single at-will power I could apply Eldritch Blast to, because all of them required weapons (and Eldritch Blast is not a weapon). I wasn't so lucky when I decided to pick up a Ranger at-will power (Twin Strike). The DMs house-ruled that I could use Twin Strike with Eldritch Blast because it seemed idiotic to them that you couldn't strike twice with it.

I don't intend to so much as think of picking up additional Rogue powers, though. It's just not worth the hassle. It's like getting asked, "Do you want this delicious and moist chocolate cake, or do you want a month-old stick of bread?" and answering "THE BREAD, FOR GOD'S SAKE THE BREEEEEEEEEEEEAD!!".

Yes, multiclassing is dead. I never really hated 3.5, so I'm guessing 4e is like the 5-dollar hooker I'm going to use and toss out the back door.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I don't intend to so much as think of picking up additional Rogue powers, though. It's just not worth the hassle. It's like getting asked, "Do you want this delicious and moist chocolate cake, or do you want a month-old stick of bread?" and answering "THE BREAD, FOR GOD'S SAKE THE BREEEEEEEEEEEEAD!!"

THE CAKE IS A LIE.

Seriously.  Maybe across roles it isn't so good, but Tiefling or Rogue into Blood Mage has already been shown to be kind of absurd.  (Not Minotaur Ranger absurd, but still absurd.)  It's not going to see the EXTREME use it did in 3.X, but it's still competitive.

[Dan2]

By Tiefling do you happen to mean Warlock?

Also, I agree with you.  It's still competitive, if not as good as it once was.

[Josh]

There are some interesting combinations with the new "multi-classing" but in general it works poorly. 

If you make a fighter/wizard you should be able to fight a little and wizard a little.  In practice the system does not accomplish this feat (the fact that 3ed does not either is irrelevant). 

Personally, I say just let the player spend one feat and they can switch powers from some other class.  How hard is that? 

[tsuyoshikentsu]

By Tiefling do you happen to mean Warlock?

There's a flavor difference?

Personally, I say just let the player spend one feat and they can switch powers from some other class.  How hard is that? 

That makes it TOO good.  Realize also that WotC is sick of hearing the "YO USTART AZ A RANJER SO U HAV TO END THA TWAY!" complaints.

[brislove]