Author Topic: Re: Fridge Logic and You  (Read 5287 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« on: July 19, 2009, 07:13:56 PM »
Meanwhile, there are plenty of examples (such as Fighter feats, Ranger feats, etc) that all state that the bonus feats can ignore requirements.  

...

There are meanwhile plenty of classes written correctly (at least in terms of bonus feats and the necessary exceptions for requirements) such as the Fighter and Ranger.

Do you not actually know the rules for Fighter Bonus feats? Really? Fighter Bonus feats are an example against you. The fact that you describe them this way means you are either fucking retarded or a fucking liar, based on your previous posts, and the fact that you say the PHB text proves the MM text has nothing to do with classes even though the MM text explicitly has to do with classes, I'm going to guess liar.

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2009, 10:06:43 AM »
No JaronK. The Monster Manual rule is not just talking about the MM entries. It is talking about all creatures, of which PCs are a subset.

Also, I know you can't read, but I had hoped you'd mastered the concept of "reread" being to read again, but apparently not.

Nuntius Mortis

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 328
    • Email
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2009, 10:40:56 AM »
Kaelik, chill out, man. I disagree with Jaron as well on that subject but there's no need to throw insults to him.
Never underestimate a halfling!

Sepehr Anvari - Chaos Monk

Velnius Agonista - Halfling Thrower (needs repair)

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2009, 01:30:38 PM »
No JaronK. The Monster Manual rule is not just talking about the MM entries. It is talking about all creatures, of which PCs are a subset.

Also, I know you can't read, but I had hoped you'd mastered the concept of "reread" being to read again, but apparently not.

What is the section that the page 7 feat rule is on Kaelik?  Answer:  READING THE ENTRIES.  And the other rule?  CREATING THE MONSTER.  Thus, those entries are about reading monster entries and creating your own monsters.  What's the PHB feat rule under?  FEATS.  Thus, it's about feats in general.  Context. 

Do you have any actual quote to back up the claim that it's talking about all creatures in the READING THE ENTRIES section?  Or is it maybe possible that it's just talking about how you should read the entries?  And do you honestly believe that the writers wanted players to read the section on DMs creating monsters and reading monster entries before they made their characters, especially considering the PHB makes the rule crystal clear?  Really?

JaronK

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2009, 06:31:48 AM »
1) I don't see the MM using creature to mean monster, I see it using creature to mean creature, but instead of say, giving a single fucking example, you resort to, "Just look, it's so obvious! If you think creature means creature you are crazy!" No JaronK, you don't get to insist I read the MM again to try to find an example proving you right. You have to provide that evidence if you want me to take you seriously.

2) Fucking Godwin. I know you are a just a hack who tries to score imaginary argument points and regularly lies and all, but really. You could at least pick something even remotely obscure to lie about, since a fucking five year old can tell the difference between using the word Hitler and Godwining. Yes, I totally compared Monsters in the Monster Manual to Hitler to show how the Monsters argument "1) Rawr! 2) Hungry! Therefore 3) Eat" is wrong. In the future I'll use actual logical argument to refute the Monsters instead of comparing Monsters to Hitler.

Quit trying to score points JaronK, it's a fucking joke, and you need to stop.

3) We are talking about creatures. For example Human Cleric 10. Human Cleric 10 is a creature. Human Cleric 10 has a bonus feat. That bonus feat is a bonus feat that the creature has. It therefore follows the rules for creature bonus feats. If you want to argue that creature bonus feat rules only apply to stuff in the MM, that is a stupid monkey shit argument. But it's still leaps and bounds better than saying that "a creature that has a bonus feat" only applies to a sub set of "bonus feats that a creature has" And not to other "bonus feats that a creature has."

j0lt

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Browncoat
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2009, 07:34:18 AM »
No JaronK, you don't get to insist I read the MM again to try to find an example proving you right. You have to provide that evidence if you want me to take you seriously.
Wrong.  YOU have to stop being a flaming douchebag in 9/10 of the posts you make here if you want ANYONE to take you seriously.  JaronK is posting to try and make a point.  Anytime someone says anything that you disagree with, you just get all hissy and go on a troll rampage.

If you're not going to behave like an adult and engage in useful discussions around here, then just fuck off!  I'm not the only one around here sick of your bullshit polluting otherwise useful threads!
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 07:36:07 AM by j0lt »
PbP Games
The Artifact (prologue) as Dr. Henry Loder, Mayan archaeologist


Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2009, 03:45:07 PM »
No JaronK, you don't get to insist I read the MM again to try to find an example proving you right. You have to provide that evidence if you want me to take you seriously.
Wrong.  YOU have to stop being a flaming douchebag in 9/10 of the posts you make here if you want ANYONE to take you seriously.  JaronK is posting to try and make a point.  Anytime someone says anything that you disagree with, you just get all hissy and go on a troll rampage.

If you're not going to behave like an adult and engage in useful discussions around here, then just fuck off!  I'm not the only one around here sick of your bullshit polluting otherwise useful threads!

Have you ever read any of my posts! I'm never a flaming douchebag. I just use words differently than other people do sometimes.  Feel free to actually read all my posts and find that out for yourself.

1) I don't see the MM using creature to mean monster, I see it using creature to mean creature, but instead of say, giving a single fucking example, you resort to, "Just look, it's so obvious! If you think creature means creature you are crazy!" No JaronK, you don't get to insist I read the MM again to try to find an example proving you right. You have to provide that evidence if you want me to take you seriously.

You know what?  Until you get the main point, you won't understand this part.  The main point is what the Monster Manual is talking about when it mentions feats... namely reading entries in the Monster Manual and making your own custom versions of those entries.  Do you at least see that fact?  Do you recognize that the page 7 entry is under "READING THE ENTRIES" and that the later one is in the section for DMs creating their own monsters?  Do you?  Do you therefor understand that those sections are only relevant to DMs reading monster entries and DMs creating their own monsters?

So in other words you have absolutely no evidence or instances of creature meaning monster not creature, so you are going to instead of defending that argument just jump back on some totally different and completely unrelated point.

JaronK, if you just understood that Clerics have 3/4ths BAB, you'd see that bonus feats don't have to meet pre-reqs.

Where the phrases about bonus feats are has absolutely shit all nothing to do with whether the monster manual uses creature to mean creature or monster. If it uses creature to mean Monster you could point to places where it does and I could see creature as monster regardless of my opinion of anything else in the universe.

You've made two arguments:

1) PHB says bonus feats meet pre-reqs.
2) MM does not say anything about class bonus feats.

Therefore

3) There is no contradiction and the rule is X.

I told you 2) was shit, so you made an argument for 2:

1) Monster Manual uses creature to refer to monster.
2) bonus feats that a monster has does not mean all bonus feats, only racial ones.

You'll note that neither of those requires the other to prove your assertion, but that's okay because you long ago took the Astrology route of throwing 6-8 mutually contradictory arguments at every problem.

I told you both of those are shit.

You followed that up by "proving" 1) by saying that if I only agreed the MM has statement has nothing to do with classes I would see that 1) and 2) are true.

No JaronK. You don't get to tell me to accept your conclusion before I evaluate your premises. And even if I did accept your conclusion, that still wouldn't make creature mean Monster or bonus feats a creature has mean only some bonus feats.

dither

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Breaking the ninth wall
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 06:03:46 PM »
No JaronK. You don't get to tell me to accept your conclusion before I evaluate your premises. And even if I did accept your conclusion, that still wouldn't make creature mean Monster or bonus feats a creature has mean only some bonus feats.

But can he see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
"Stuck between a rogue and a bard place."

vanity
Read my webcomic!
Dither's Amazing Changing Avatars

[spoiler]
Quote from: Shadowhunter
Quote from: Flay Crimsonwind
"Vegeta! What does the scouter say about Dither's power level?"
It's over nine thousand!

Quote from: Bauglir
Quote from: Anklebite
Quote from: dither
Well blow me down! :P
A SECTION OF THE CAVERN HAS COLLAPSED!
dither, Miner, has died after colliding with an obstacle!
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2009, 06:26:32 PM »
No JaronK. You don't get to tell me to accept your conclusion before I evaluate your premises. And even if I did accept your conclusion, that still wouldn't make creature mean Monster or bonus feats a creature has mean only some bonus feats.

But can he see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?
Because it qualifies you for early entry into candymancer?
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

dither

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1413
  • Breaking the ninth wall
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2009, 06:55:28 PM »
But can he see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

Because it qualifies you for early entry into candymancer?[/quote]

Turn off the lights, look in the mirror, and say the name "Candyman" three times. THAT will get you early entry.
"Stuck between a rogue and a bard place."

vanity
Read my webcomic!
Dither's Amazing Changing Avatars

[spoiler]
Quote from: Shadowhunter
Quote from: Flay Crimsonwind
"Vegeta! What does the scouter say about Dither's power level?"
It's over nine thousand!

Quote from: Bauglir
Quote from: Anklebite
Quote from: dither
Well blow me down! :P
A SECTION OF THE CAVERN HAS COLLAPSED!
dither, Miner, has died after colliding with an obstacle!
[/spoiler]

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2009, 10:33:46 PM »
JaronK, you are an idiot and you are too stupid to understand anything.

If I told you that bonus feats must meet pre-reqs, and as soon as you understand that fact you would see that the PHB means Fighter whenever it says Cleric, you would rightly call that stupid.

Whether or not anything at all has to meet any pre reqs at all has absolutely nothing to do with whether the MM uses creature to mean monster. Nothing. Not a thing.

The absolute fact that the sky is blue has nothing to do with my claim that Zhentarim Skymages really means Zhentarim Forestmage.

Nothing at all.

You have spent over a page arguing against nothing because you are too busy fapping off to your bonus feat argument that no one is fucking talking about!

JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2009, 01:34:28 AM »
If I told you that bonus feats must meet pre-reqs, and as soon as you understand that fact you would see that the PHB means Fighter whenever it says Cleric, you would rightly call that stupid.

So, you understand now that bonus feats need prerequisites for anything but monster entries?  Good.  Because that was the point anyway.  You can disagree on the creature thing all you want, as that hardly matters.

Understanding the creature thing means understanding concepts like target audience (the PHB is targetted towards players, while the Monster Manual is for DMs... so the Monster Manual is not for creating PCs, even though they do throw a few PC options in there once in a while, such as the Assimar).  Pretty much the whole Monster Manual assumes it's a DM reading the book, for example.  But hey, you couldn't get the basics of context while you were raving and ranting for multiple pages, so how long would it take that to get across?

And by the way, the first time Creature and Monster are used interchangably is in the first page of actual text, page 5.  If you'd read the book instead of regurgitating someone else's arguments this whole time, you'd know that.  Under reading the entries, you get a rapid switching of the terms ("Each MONSTER description is organizxed in the same general format as outlined below.  For complete information about the characteristics of MONSTERS, consult Chapter 7: Glossary...Statistics Block.  This portion of a MONSTER description contains basic game information on the CREATURE.  Name.  This is the name by which the CREATURE is generally known." and so on).  And then the beginning of the Chapter 1:  "MONSTERS A to Z.  This book contains hundreds of CREATURES for use in any Dungeons and Dragons game.  Refer to the glossary, starting on page 305, for definitions of common features and abilities of individual MONSTERS.  In most cases, a MONSTER entry..." and so on.  They flip between Monster and Creature all over the place, and this continues throughout the book.  Heck, the feats entry itself on page 7 that you keep refering to says "The line gives the CREATURE'S feats. A MONSTER gains feats just as a character does..." and so on.

See?  Now, go read the rest of the book and think about it.  Consider the fact that it's a book designed for DMs to read (yes, there's some stuff for players, but that's true of the DMG too... the overall book is for DMs).  Consider that DMs are creating the NPCs.  Consider the use of creature and monster, and this time actually read the book so you see how the terminology is used throughout the book.  Further consider that this is the first book in which monster entries were featured, and is thus the basic reference for monster entries from here on out.  So, in a book designed for the guy making NPCs, not PCs, a book that's entirely about the sorts of NPCs that can be sent to fight the PCs, what sort of creatures do you think they're talking about 95% of the time?  How do they really use the term "creature" and the term "monster?" 

Think about that for a bit, really think, instead of spouting out insults.  You might learn something.

JaronK

j0lt

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Browncoat
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2009, 01:42:45 AM »
I'm never a flaming douchebag.
:lmao
JaronK, you are an idiot and you are too stupid to understand anything.

You have spent over a page arguing against nothing because you are too busy fapping off to your bonus feat argument that no one is fucking talking about!
2) Fucking Godwin. I know you are a just a hack who tries to score imaginary argument points and regularly lies and all, but really. You could at least pick something even remotely obscure to lie about, since a fucking five year old can tell the difference between using the word Hitler and Godwining.

Quit trying to score points JaronK, it's a fucking joke, and you need to stop.
2) HAHAHAHA! You are a nature fag fool.
Oh My Fucking God. Nature Fag.
I can only assume you smoke crack.
...and so on.

Seriously.  Go away.
PbP Games
The Artifact (prologue) as Dr. Henry Loder, Mayan archaeologist


Bozwevial

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4497
  • Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2009, 01:47:17 AM »
Have you ever read any of my posts! I'm never a flaming douchebag. I just use words differently than other people do sometimes.  Feel free to actually read all my posts and find that out for yourself.

JaronK, you are an idiot and you are too stupid to understand anything.

[...]

You have spent over a page arguing against nothing because you are too busy fapping off to your bonus feat argument that no one is fucking talking about!

This seems quite contradictory. It also seems like the type of behavior that we were trying to move away from as a community, at least the last time I checked.

If this thread's discussion is going to be productive (thought it's certainly taken a large turn from its original intent), it won't happen with you screaming at JaronK, who has been surprisingly civil towards you during this whole argument. (That's not a slight, by the way, JaronK--that's a testament to your patience.)

Also, j0lt, damn you and your ninja skillz.

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2009, 01:50:56 AM »
I see you both missed the exact parody of JaronKs argument that jolt specifically told me I should be accepting. But whatever.

Bozwevial

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4497
  • Developing a relaxed attitude to danger.
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2009, 01:56:27 AM »
I see you both missed the exact parody of JaronKs argument that jolt specifically told me I should be accepting. But whatever.

I think I see precisely what I need to: You, being what I would politely call "uncivil" and ignoring a request to stop trolling.

But if you think it will change my mind about your posts being justified, then by all means! Show me this parody I seem to have missed.

j0lt

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Browncoat
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2009, 02:15:49 AM »
I see you both missed the exact parody of JaronKs argument that jolt specifically told me I should be accepting. But whatever.

I didn't tell you to accept anything.  I told you to go away.
PbP Games
The Artifact (prologue) as Dr. Henry Loder, Mayan archaeologist


Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2009, 02:23:53 AM »
Show me this parody I seem to have missed.

Me: Do you have any examples of the MM using creature to mean Monster not creature?
JaronK: "Feel free to actually read the book and find that out for yourself."
Me: "No JaronK, you don't get to insist I read the MM again to try to find an example proving you right. You have to provide that evidence if you want me to take you seriously."
Jolt (quoting the above sentence of mine): "Wrong." (Followed by unrelated stuff, I'm going to assume because he directly quoted that statement and told me it was wrong, that he wsa negating that statement and as such would agree with the statement "JaronK does get to insist that I read the MM again to try to prove him right.")
Me (In parody): (Statement disagreeing with what he said.) "Feel free to actually read all my posts and find that out for yourself."

Now, I would argue that a flaming douche bag must be someone who flames IE makes "a response is usually not constructive, does not clarify a discussion," which I would argue my response do. But that's an aside point, since the douche bag attache makes it entirely subjective and just demonstrates that jolt is taking this opportunity to flame me, and not interested in an actual discussion of any kind.

Just out of curiosity Bozwevial, would you characterize the statement: "Hitler, just like Goebbels, was a jerk. Nazis are jerks." as a Godwin? Keeping in mind the definition of Godwin would probably be, "the use of arguments in the reductio ad Hitlerum form."

And if it is not such a Godwin, if a poster should perhaps before declaring something to be such, know whether or not the accused Godwin is an actual comparison to Hitler? And additionally, are false accusations of comparison to Hitler appropriate?

As regardin my uncivility, or JaronK's "civility" yes, I can gather from your post that you are exactly the type of person who takes great delight in all insults be just deniable enough to never be blamed for, and are therefore a proponent of BGs recent unfortunate shift into a gitpesque troll playground where civil insults and purposeful deliberate stupidity to provoke ire are the accepted norm in disagreement and those who call out others for anything at all, from lapses of argument to stealth trolling are the problem.

As such, someone who actually is blunt about disagreement I could only imagine would be annoying.

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2009, 02:24:48 AM »
I see you both missed the exact parody of JaronKs argument that jolt specifically told me I should be accepting. But whatever.

I didn't tell you to accept anything.  I told you to go away.

So you just used unclear language in your trolling and flaming. My mistake, the parody was a waste of time, I'll keep that in mind during your future trolls.

j0lt

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1317
  • Browncoat
Re: Fridge Logic and You
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2009, 02:34:05 AM »
I see you both missed the exact parody of JaronKs argument that jolt specifically told me I should be accepting. But whatever.

I didn't tell you to accept anything.  I told you to go away.

So you just used unclear language in your trolling and flaming. My mistake, the parody was a waste of time, I'll keep that in mind during your future trolls.

Nothing in my post was unclear.  It's your inability to read without twisting the logic around that makes others posts seem unclear.  Anyways, keep it up.  I hope you get yourself banned!
PbP Games
The Artifact (prologue) as Dr. Henry Loder, Mayan archaeologist