Author Topic: Erudite is a shitty class  (Read 47594 times)

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dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2009, 03:41:44 AM »
Then this may be my simple misinterpretation of rule jargon.

But I still stand by my stance that the Erudite is a powerful class.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 03:48:34 AM by dark_samuari »

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2009, 03:50:36 AM »
Then this may be my simple misinterpretation of rule jargon.
No.  You are wrong.
Page 65 of XPH has the title "Variant: Psionics are different"

I'm not even going to bother to read and quote the rest.  That's the fucking title of the section.  Since that's a variant, then the default MUST be transparency.

Bastian

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2009, 03:52:33 AM »
But I still stand by my stance that the Erudite is a powerful class.
And I don't think anyone else in this thread disagrees besides Sir Swear-a-lot.

dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2009, 03:57:13 AM »
Then this may be my simple misinterpretation of rule jargon.
No.  You are wrong.

Yeah... That was me accepting I had made a mistake.

You should adopt it sometime.

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2009, 04:03:16 AM »
But I still stand by my stance that the Erudite is a powerful class.
And I don't think anyone else in this thread disagrees besides Sir Swear-a-lot.
I counted five curse words in the OP counting the title (shitty, shit, and ass).

Fucking, shit, fucking in a reply.

So, counting the title that's eight curse words and there's not even an F bomb in the OP (what gets read the most).  Cry me a river.

Quote from: dark_samuari
Yeah... That was me accepting I had made a mistake.

You should adopt it sometime.
Well, when I do make a mistake I will.  Until then, I'll enjoy actually knowing what I'm talking about rather than just fapping.

Kaelik

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2009, 04:06:21 AM »
But I still stand by my stance that the Erudite is a powerful class.
And I don't think anyone else in this thread disagrees besides Sir Swear-a-lot.

1) I object strenuously. That's way more my title than his.

2) It's fine to say it's a powerful class and no one disagrees. But Sorcerer is a powerful class and no one disagrees.

The OP had three Premises:

1) We value Erudite too highly here.
2) The Erudite is not deserving of it's high placement as better than a Wizard or Druid. Like we make it out to be.
3) The Erudite is about on level of the Sorcerer. Maybe worse.

So the Erudite being powerful violates none of those. And at the very least I'd say that he's done a compelling job or arguing both 1) and 2) subject to whether he actually needed to argue 2 and how much we do value the Erudite.

And he's well on his way to arguing 3, I'd say it's in his favor.

So generally speaking, I think it's a joke to criticize him from some sort of moral high ground, because seriously the only fucking thing you can even think about claiming over him is that you are allergic to mean words. Since he's far more right than not.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 04:08:22 AM by Kaelik »

dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2009, 04:11:43 AM »
So generally speaking, I think it's a joke to criticize him from some sort of moral high ground, because seriously the only fucking thing you can even think about claiming over him is that you are allergic to mean words. Since he's far more right than not.

Criticizing him for being overtly belligerent is a joke? 

Emy

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2009, 04:12:54 AM »

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2009, 04:16:05 AM »
Just thought I'd throw these in here.
Two things.

A) All psionic classes can recharge.
B) Recharge isn't even a big deal because the party is going to rest when the classes without recharge need rest anyways.

Cool, but not actually a big deal.

Edit: Cerebromancers can do it too.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 04:18:22 AM by The Lurker »

dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2009, 04:18:30 AM »
finite power isn't a big thing?

Kaelik

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2009, 04:18:38 AM »
Criticizing him for being overtly belligerent is a joke?

Yes. It is. Overt belligerence is not inherently bad. He was telling our entire community we were wrong about something. If we are in fact wrong, we deserve overt belligerence.

I find especially telling your use of the word "Overt" as if the Covert belligerence displayed by some, like you for example to him, is somehow superior in nature to his overt.

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2009, 04:21:03 AM »
finite power isn't a big thing?
Getting more effects per day isn't a big deal with the fifteen minute workday in effect.  It's neat and cool, but not actually an increase in power.  It's an increase in adventuring per day (which is cool, but again your character isn't going to die of old age while you're playing him).

KellKheraptis

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2009, 04:23:19 AM »
A good part of the whole idea of Erudites being at least on par with Arties, Wiz's, and CoD's is that they have access to all the same ju-ju the other classes do, and even more opportunity to abuse it through raping the action economy.  Even something simple like jacking up ML to allow for Twinned/Repeat/Linked powers and rolled in with Chain/Reach Power for mass buff/blast/debuff all in one action, is usually only possible for the other Tier 1's (artificer I think is the exception, but I'm no expert on them, so I'll leave that to someone else) if they take a PrC (i.e. RKV or War Weaver come to mind immediately).  An Erudite can do it right out of the box.

Also, depending on level of cheese, an Erudite can conceivably get every 8th-9th level divine spell as a power, and every 9th level spell, given that they can always research it.  Time is the only limiting factor, and given the power level involved by that character level, it's not really a limit at all.  Triplecasting with the best augmentation mechanic there is without the risk of your buff (and half your spells, as is the case with a Wizard abusing shapechange to get cleric spells) is exceedingly powerful, and while it mainly only would add versatility to anyone else, the Erudite possesses the full capability of bringing it all to bear at once.  And that makes it high Tier 1 (One) at least .

~End Rant~

PS : And hopefully it didn't seem as garbled as it did when I proofread it O.o
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 04:28:03 AM by KellKheraptis »
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VennDygrem

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2009, 04:27:14 AM »
I think the main thing that I, and several others, have a problem with is the assertion that the "Erudite is a shitty class." The quality of not being as good as popular opinion dictates does not make it a 'shitty class,' but rather 'not as good a class as some would have you believe.'

Regardless of intent and behavior, I'd like to agree with the sentiment above that this does not belong in the Min/Max forum, and move to have this transferred.

Emy

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2009, 04:27:26 AM »
How would they get 9th level spells as powers? I thought they learned them as discipline powers (which they can get up to level 8).

Unless research makes that work differently than the normal Erudite power acquisition method.

dark_samuari

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2009, 04:30:12 AM »
Criticizing him for being overtly belligerent is a joke?

Yes. It is. Overt belligerence is not inherently bad. He was telling our entire community we were wrong about something. If we are in fact wrong, we deserve overt belligerence.

Do you honestly believe that his manner and attitude were the most appropriate?

I find especially telling your use of the word "Overt" as if the Covert belligerence displayed by some, like you for example to him, is somehow superior in nature to his overt.

You're perhaps mistaking 'covert belligerence' with approaching a situation in a civil manner. And in a comparison between civil debate and belligerent arguing, we know which one is the better choice.  

KellKheraptis

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2009, 04:31:23 AM »
How would they get 9th level spells as powers? I thought they learned them as discipline powers (which they can get up to level 8).

Unless research makes that work differently than the normal Erudite power acquisition method.

Research an existing power, in this case an 8th-9th level divine spell as a power, or a 9th level arcane spell as a power.  Assuming there have ever been epic erudites/psion thrallherds/wilder thrallherds/creative wizards who fucked the system to get more out of mental pinnacle that we know about, it will exist somewhere as a learnable power.  Thus, be available, under usual research rules :)

Stretching a bit?  Probably.  But there's nothing preventing it from happening, and if you're immortal, why not?
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Kaelik

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2009, 04:31:38 AM »
Yeah, from what I've seen in this thread, they don't get to have all those 9th level spells, and in fact are missing out on most of the action economy.

Wizards already get six spells a round anyway, I'm not sure what's so amazing that Erudites can do with Link Power, and I'm pretty sure they can't even use Reach Spell.

Kaelik

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2009, 04:37:05 AM »
Do you honestly believe that his manner and attitude were the most appropriate?

Most appropriate? No, I don't think that any one manner can be most appropriate. But certainly fairly appropriate.

You're perhaps mistaking 'covert belligerence' with approaching a situation in a civil manner. And in a comparison between civil debate and belligerent arguing, we know which one is the better choice.

No, I'm really not. You are hostile toward him, but you do so in a way that is more subtle and annoying, and less hilarious and overt.

And no, "civil debate" where people imply that other people are banned posters but are too cowardly to say it is not superior to belligerent arguing where someone posts an actual argument about how erudites do not deserve pride of place.

The Lurker

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Re: Erudite is a shitty class
« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2009, 04:39:23 AM »
A good part of the whole idea of Erudites being at least on par with Arties, Wiz's, and CoD's is that they have access to all the same ju-ju the other classes do, and even more opportunity to abuse it through raping the action economy.  Even something simple like jacking up ML to allow for Twinned/Repeat/Linked powers and rolled in with Chain/Reach Power for mass buff/blast/debuff all in one action, is usually only possible for the other Tier 1's (artificer I think is the exception, but I'm no expert on them, so I'll leave that to someone else) if they take a PrC (i.e. RKV or War Weaver come to mind immediately).  An Erudite can do it right out of the box.
1) Metapsionics are inferior in every way to metamagic.  Linked power+schism+metamorphosis(shaper with metamorphic transfer) is literally the peak of psion action economy.  The linked power isn't top end, but might be close (if you link it to call to mind on an even level then it's a top level power, but manifests the next round and costs you your move action).  At BEST, the psion is tossing out 3 level appropriate powers a round (4 if you have giant ML boosts so the schism mind can get top level powers).  And that's with spell to power variant too.

A wizard at best is tossing out four top level spells a round (Chronotyryn from shapechange, 2 quickened via metamagic rods or class features, 2 standards), one fifth level spell (imbue familiar with spell ability), and a swift (wand or a swift spell from the familiar).

A cleric does pretty much the same thing with DMM or straight up doesn't need to cast in combat (persist).

So, psion actually loses the action economy.  Mostly because metapsionics suck.
Quote
Also, depending on level of cheese, an Erudite can conceivably get every 8th-9th level divine spell as a power, and every 9th level spell, given that they can always research it.  Time is the only limiting factor, and given the power level involved by that character level, it's not really a limit at all.  Triplecasting with the best augmentation mechanic there is without the risk of your buff (and half your spells, as is the case with a Wizard abusing shapechange to get cleric spells) is exceedingly powerful, and while it mainly only would add versatility to anyone else, the Erudite possesses the full capability of bringing it all to bear at once.  And that makes it high Tier 1 (One) at least[/i].
There's a five level cleric PrC that gives the ability to learn any psionic power as a divine spell without losing any casting.  Miracle+9th level psionics (you have to prepare, but what do we care?), miracle for everything else.

Why don't we see it more often?  Because psionic manifesting isn't all that impressive compared to PHB casters.

Edit: PHB research for wizards is even more open to abuse than psions.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2009, 04:41:17 AM by The Lurker »