Author Topic: An Optimized Fighter  (Read 17272 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2009, 06:26:41 AM »
However, you are not actually a drow to take the sub levels :S

They're alternate class features not racial substitution levels, any race can take the variant.


rubberduck

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 269
    • my stuff
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2009, 06:55:02 AM »
Since you are large (or count as large) why not take "knockback"? all you attacks can initiate bullrush attempts now
best online-comics i know: http://lfgcomic.com/ http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com
Looking for players? http://spielerzentrale.de/

me fail english? that's unpossible!
fear my new god! DARTH GOKUVERINE
poor literacy is kewl

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2009, 07:18:12 AM »
Since you are large (or count as large) why not take "knockback"? all you attacks can initiate bullrush attempts now

It's my 9th level feat.

Nachofan99

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 429
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2009, 09:55:59 AM »
Um, maybe I'm up too early in the morning after being out all night but...no 1 dip Barbarian for rage and pounce?

Soda

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 484
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2009, 12:26:14 PM »
Anyone have a straight fighter build that utilizes dungeon crasher and zhentarim fighter?

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2009, 03:35:09 PM »
Um, maybe I'm up too early in the morning after being out all night but...no 1 dip Barbarian for rage and pounce?

Does pounce add a whole lot to bull rushing? Where do you think the barbarian level would be best placed?

Paradox

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2009, 05:16:52 PM »
Does pounce add a whole lot to bull rushing? Where do you think the barbarian level would be best placed?

Would charging net us anything to bull rushing?
Also, since knockback doesn't allow AoOs, why take Imp. Bullrush?

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2009, 05:55:15 PM »
Honestly I think the only good use for a fighter20 is archery, but even then you'd be better off as a ranger/fighter multiclass to get the class skills needed like spot and hide.

BowenSilverclaw

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5337
  • Walking that fine line between genius and insanity
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2009, 06:09:24 PM »
Honestly I think the only good use for a fighter20 is archery, but even then you'd be better off as a ranger/fighter multiclass to get the class skills needed like spot and hide.
Don't forget Warblade and Eternal Blade :)
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

Quote from: J0lt
You caught a fish.  It was awesome.   :lol

AfterCrescent

  • Honorary Moderator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 4220
  • Here After
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2009, 06:19:24 PM »
The drow fighter sub grants us the ability to add the fighter's dex modifier to damage whenever they attack a flat-footed foe as well as +2 towards initiative. The basis for taking the ACF was that it costs you heavy armor and tower shields but you already lose medium & heavy armor & shields from the Thug ACF (so you're basically losing nothing, only gaining). And when you take those levels in crusader you regain medium armor & shield proficiencies. 
Anyone else notice the problem with this? I'm afb, but going off what you've said, you can't take Thug & Drow ACF. You can't take 2 ACF that give up the same thing. If you lose heavy armor from Thug, you can't take Drow to give it up, too.
The cake is a lie.
Need to play table top? Get your game on at:
Brilliant Gameologists' PbP Forum. Do it, you know you want to.
The 3.5 Cleric Handbook
The 13th Guard - An alternate history campaign idea.
Clerics just wake up one morning and decide they need to kick ass, and it needs to be kicked NOW. ~veekie

Kaelik

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 704
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2009, 06:34:00 PM »
The drow fighter sub grants us the ability to add the fighter's dex modifier to damage whenever they attack a flat-footed foe as well as +2 towards initiative. The basis for taking the ACF was that it costs you heavy armor and tower shields but you already lose medium & heavy armor & shields from the Thug ACF (so you're basically losing nothing, only gaining). And when you take those levels in crusader you regain medium armor & shield proficiencies. 
Anyone else notice the problem with this? I'm afb, but going off what you've said, you can't take Thug & Drow ACF. You can't take 2 ACF that give up the same thing. If you lose heavy armor from Thug, you can't take Drow to give it up, too.

People seem to believe you can. I've seen the same thing suggested for Thug+SA fighter, and several other ways of just giving up the same thing multiple times. I assume someone would object if I had a Wizard with a bonus feat at level 1, Abrupt Jaunt, and Rapid Summoning, but some people seriously think you can do that shit.

Alastar

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1028
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2009, 06:54:38 PM »
I think you have to be an elf to have the drow hit and run fighter option.

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2009, 08:43:08 PM »
The drow fighter sub grants us the ability to add the fighter's dex modifier to damage whenever they attack a flat-footed foe as well as +2 towards initiative. The basis for taking the ACF was that it costs you heavy armor and tower shields but you already lose medium & heavy armor & shields from the Thug ACF (so you're basically losing nothing, only gaining). And when you take those levels in crusader you regain medium armor & shield proficiencies. 
Anyone else notice the problem with this? I'm afb, but going off what you've said, you can't take Thug & Drow ACF. You can't take 2 ACF that give up the same thing. If you lose heavy armor from Thug, you can't take Drow to give it up, too.

My mistake, thanks for spotting that. The build has been adjusted & corrected.

I think you have to be an elf to have the drow hit and run fighter option.

Quote from: Drow of the Underdark page 57
Alternative class features have no prerequisites; you simply select them at the proper levels in lieu of selecting the standard class feature.

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2009, 09:15:04 PM »
I'm afraid that I'm going to give this build the  :tdown

It does a lot of weird things to accomplish its goal of being the "Optimized fighter"
but the thing that irks me most is the fact that the build is:
Male Goliath Fighter 10/Crusader 2/Avenging Executioner 5/Fighter 2

 ???
It's misleading to call that a fighter. I hate to say it but... that shitty lockdown build does it better really.
I mean it'd be cool to even use all kinds of acfs and even RacialSubLevels's but it kind of sucks that you have a Prc + level adjustment+ Tome of battle (stop whining about the tob please) class and call it a fighter.
 Further yes I know thats been mentioned before but its kind of a big deal Me thinks when there are builds that are optimized fighters that actually use 19-20 levels of fighter...

By your rubric, I could say, Fighter12/Ur-priest 8, or Fighter12/Barbarian X/Hulking hurler 3/Something X, and a large race.
\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2009, 10:02:22 PM »
I completely understand where you may be coming from in your analysis of the build I presented but I thought I might try to present my mindset upon setting out on the construction of the build.

So when someone asks for an optimized wizard on the boards there is an inclination to suggest to them a build featuring prestige classes (war weaver or archmage for example). Now this is because the wizard doesn't offer much incentive to stay in it. And the same can be said for the fighter as well. So I took a look at the fighter and accessed it's strongest features which looked to be it's large assortment of feats, Dungeon Crasher and the Zhentarim sub. levels.

So from a perspective of attempting to optimize towards the natural strengths of a fighter I attempted to focus on both the demoralization and bull rushing combat schools. Now even with the alternate class features and substitution levels, there is no reason to stay in a fighter past 10th level (much like the sorcerer's first level), much like 4th level back in the heyday.

Proceeding from there I attempted to optimize these strengths while still staying true to being a 'fighter.' I defined this process by dedicating the build to only reinforcing the already established strengths of the base fighter class. The two-level dip into crusader is to pick up thicket of blades to use in conjunction with Dungeon Crasher and the levels in Avenging Executioner are geared towards boosting the fighter's demoralization skill. So through my eyes the extensions outward from the fighter class are born inward towards reinforcing the fighter's advantages.

I can see where people may bring up the counter-argument that builds such as fighter 12/ur-priest 8 produce a stronger warrior but this seems more akin to giving guerrilla warrior a rocket launcher. There is no natural synergy, just an immediate addition of unconnected power. No building off previously established & attained strengths.

So with all that said I understand why you may disagree with my stance but I also happen to disagree in your claims towards it.

Now, can anybody provide critique to the initial build as to make it more optimized towards it's strengths?   

Paradox

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2009, 11:06:12 PM »
Anyone tell me why you would want Imp Bullrush with Knockback? I don't see any benefit for having Imp. Bull rush with Knockback in the build, except for the +4 to the attack.

Midnight_v

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Dulce et decorum est pro alea mori.
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2009, 11:11:50 PM »
Quote
So with all that said I understand why you may disagree with my stance but I also happen to disagree in your claims towards it.
Fair enough.  I suppose I understand your position as well.
However would you argee that when someone speaks of optimizing the wizard and its suggested they take... Wizard5/ prcX/prcY/prcZ Its not just "The optimized Wizard anymore" It becomes a Incantrix. Or a Initiate of the sevenfold veil build.

Quote
There is no natural synergy, just an immediate addition of unconnected power. No building off previously established & attained strengths.
 
In the case of the hulking hurler stub there actually is. Though honestly I don't wanna derail you into a side argument when you're clearly looking for an advice level thing. I respectfully disagree with this build in title only, though, and your logic isn't flawed now that you've explained it so... okay.


\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"

dark_samuari

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1024
    • Email
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2009, 11:18:54 PM »
Anyone tell me why you would want Imp Bullrush with Knockback? I don't see any benefit for having Imp. Bull rush with Knockback in the build, except for the +4 to the attack.

Improved Bull Rush is a prerequisite for Knockback and Shock Trooper.

However would you argee that when someone speaks of optimizing the wizard and its suggested they take... Wizard5/ prcX/prcY/prcZ Its not just "The optimized Wizard anymore" It becomes a Incantrix. Or a Initiate of the sevenfold veil build.

I would agree with you to a certain degree, yes.

altpersona

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2939
  • BG forum Emperor Ad Litem
    • Altpersona.net
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2009, 11:27:54 PM »
w/ a 12 lvl comitment to Fighter, i have no trouble calling it a Fighter..

w/ 8 lvls of not fighter its far less flawed than straight F20.

biggest problem i see, is i think that a F12/arcane//divine 8 still beats it...
The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga sux.


JaronK

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4039
Re: The Optimized Fighter
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2009, 12:55:59 AM »
The thing is, when a Wizard PrCs, he still gains all his Wizard spellcasting, which is the primary Wizard thing.  When a Fighter multiclasses, he's not gaining the main Fighter stuff anymore.

Usually the point of making a thread all about optimizing a class is to show what you can do with the class itself, and that way when people are making builds they can borrow what you've got and maybe multiclass around to get whatever else they want.

So yeah, almost every Fighter build could benefit greatly from a 1 level dip into Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian, or a Crusader dip, or a Warblade dip.  But an "optimized Fighter" thread should try to stick entirely to Fighters, just to show an example of the best they can do.

For that, I'd say go with something like this:

Human Fighter (Zhentarium, Dungeoncrasher, Thug variants)
Stats:  Min Str 13, Min Int 14, Min Dex 13, focus on boosting Str, Con, and Dex.  Keep all knowledge skills related to creatures maxed, as well as Intimidate
Level 1:  Two Flaws (take your pick), Power Attack, Educated, Improved Bull Rush
Level 2:  Dungeoncrasher 1 (knock enemies into walls for extra damage)
Level 3:  Skill Focus: Intimidation, Imperious Command
Level 4:  Knowledge Devotion
Level 5:  Extended Intimidation (intimidation to raise disposition lasts longer)
Level 6:  Shock Trooper, Dungeoncrasher 2 (more damage from slamming people into walls)
Level 8:  Leap Attack
Level 9:  Swift Demoralization (Intimidate as a Swift action)
Level 10: Knockback (must have gotten Permanent Enlarge Person by this point)
Level 12: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Level 14: Point Blank Shot
Level 15: Rapid Shot
Level 16: Woodland Archery
Level 18: Precise Shot, Far Shot
Level 20: Standstill

Basic gear:  Bracers of Archery, an Eager Greatbow with Splitting as soon as you can afford it, a Valorous Glaive with other useful mods when you can afford them (possibly a Valorous Skillfull Meteor Hammer at high levels), a few items that give you manuevers once per encounter for Shadow Jaunt and Sudden Leap, items that boost intimidation, something to let you fly (maybe a flying mount), items that boost knowledge checks, Permanent Enlarge Person by level 10, Spiked armor of some kind.

Tactics:  You can charge for enormous damage, killing almost anything you can hit this way (by level 8 it's +32 damage from power attack alone, and Knowledge Devotion is giving nice bonuses too).   By level 10 Knockback provides huge bonuses to damage as you slam people back into walls, and knocking back people you've charged will help you charge again if you need.  Take the Never Outnumbered skill trick and you can AoE intimidate everyone nearby to cowering as a swift action once per encounter (and intimidate a single target as a swift action once per round), which lets you target Will saves in addition to AC... and you can still coup de gras your cowering target, since you've still got a full round action left.  Your archery damage should be pretty darn good too, especially with Knowledge Devotion, so you can be a solid threat from range as well.  Furthermore, if you use Knockback to knock one enemy into another, they both get tripped and you get free Improved Trip attacks against both of them... and then knock both back again for more damage.

Additionally, you're useful out of combat, since you can intimidate in more useful ways than most Fighters and you can identify monsters effectively.  The magic items let you jump to better charge positions or teleport around a bit, which is handy.

If you want to be really nasty, go Necropolitan while in a desecrated area and dump Con so you can raise your other stats, then make your weapon a Lifedrinker.  Now every hit does two negative levels.  Nasty.  You'll need another party member to disguise you so you don't look undead, which means Clerics won't turn you right away.

JaronK