Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.

[ninjarabbit]

Arcane Archer

Logical entry: Full BAB class(es)6/spellcaster1

Cons: Doesn't advance spellcasting at all. The Greater Magic Weapon spell replicates enchance arrow so it's almost pointless. Your other class features other than imbue arrow are only 1/day. Arrow of death's DC save of 20 is weaksause against anything you really want to kill with a single arrow.

Pros: Grants martial weapon proficiency, useful if you didn't have it before. Imbue arrow is actually pretty nice and is the only worthwhile class feature. Epic Arcane Archer is actually nice because it penetrates DR/epic. It gives you full BAB, good fort and reflex saves (good since most Full BAB and spellcasting classes have poor BAB) and 4 skill points/level.

[Negative Zero]

(good since most Full BAB and spellcasting classes have poor BAB)

Is that so?

[ninjarabbit]

(good since most Full BAB and spellcasting classes have poor BAB)

Is that so?

The ranger is the only full BAB class I can think of that has a good reflex save and the bard is the only full caster-type I can think of that has a good reflex save. Of course there might be a few obscure ones I can't think fo at the moment.

[Negative Zero]

Reread the quote. You said poor BAB, not reflex save, and classes with full BAB do not have poor BAB.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Master Of the Unseen Hand
Why oh why would you enter this as a caster?  While you get better with the already amazing telekinesis, you don't have any caster progression.  Maybe in gestalt.  Maaaaaybe.

Plus side: Full BAB.  You still have d4 hit dice, though.

The only sane entry is for... ghosts.  Yeah.  Ghosts benefit massively from it, qualify at level five, and get d12 hit dice anyway.  For a savage progression ghost2, this is actually a pretty awesome class.

Otherwise, a martial character with a ring of telekinesis can make pretty good use of it with this class - but it's an expensive item.

[Surreal]

The arcane archer is good as a two level dip and could merit a +0 adjustment just for the imbue arrow ability.

There's also the funny wording about imbue arrow that lets you cast any spell and fire the arrow as a standard action. I'm sure there's some mild abuse there with long casting time spells.

[Suzerain]

Shouldn't CW's mindspy be here? I mean, you lose 5 caster levels for... little. And what ways would there be to get detect thoughts as a racial ability or through a non-caster class? I'm not seeing any.

[Sinfire Titan]

Shouldn't CW's mindspy be here? I mean, you lose 5 caster levels for... little. And what ways would there be to get detect thoughts as a racial ability or through a non-caster class? I'm not seeing any.

Cabinet Something (from Races of Eberron) gets Detect Thoughts, though that PrC is actually more powerful than the Mind Spy.

[Suzerain]

Cabinet Trickser. I thought it was a caster prc. My bad. That prc could actually make the mindspy worthwhile. Apart from that combo though, I think it's solid -2 material...

[Sinfire Titan]

Cabinet Trickser. I thought it was a caster prc. My bad. That prc could actually make the mindspy worthwhile. Apart from that combo though, I think it's solid -2 material...

True. Combining PrCs isn't going to boost the tier of an individual PrC. It just means that particular build is viable. The tier threads should avoid specific builds (variant features warrant mention, such as Spell to Power, Dungeoncrasher, and Wild Shape, but those don't require a specific build to function).

[Immolo]

Metamind(without abuse of capstone)

Logical Entry: Psion 5 or Wilder 5 or Erudite 5

Cons: It only gives bonuses to manifesting but it has a 5/10 manifesting progression.

Its class features besides Font of Power are under whelming to say the least. Three free 1st and 2nd level powers and one free 3rd, 4th and 5th level powers for a grand total of 33 free powers points. Assuming metamind 10/Psion 10, you are losing 115 power points with another 33 stuck on low level powers that can't be enhanced. You could of 36,000 gp to gain the same effect as the Cognizance psicrystal ability.

You can't even manifest 9th level abilities with the Font of Power and are limited to 15 pp per power.

Pros: Font of Power gives you infinite power points for a minute.

You turn your psicrystal into an 11 point cognizance crystal giving you a 36,000 gp item for free.

[Surreal]

Shouldn't CW's mindspy be here? I mean, you lose 5 caster levels for... little. And what ways would there be to get detect thoughts as a racial ability or through a non-caster class? I'm not seeing any.

Exorcist of the Silver Flame is a really good entry (thought police!). A binder with Dantalion could do it, and maybe the Insidious Corruptor from Drow of the Underdark.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added: Suzerain's Necrocarnate note, Sinfire Titan's rebuttle to the Necrocarnate note was put at the end of the cons section, Ninjarabbit's Arcane Archer bit and the accompanied note from Surreal, The_Mad_Linguist's take on the Master of the Unseen Hand, and Immolo's description of the Metamind.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Sure, whenever the updates come, I'll keep you posted.

Thanks dude.

[Suzerain]

Exorcist of the Silver Flame is a really good entry (thought police!). A binder with Dantalion could do it, and maybe the Insidious Corruptor from Drow of the Underdark.

Do you think those options are a reason to bump it up a tier, though? You still lose CL/EBL progression for few benefits. It's potentially useful for social campaigns, but still.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Addendum to MotUH:

The writers really push you towards sorc 10 or wiz 9.  Either entry is a trap.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added The_Mad_Linguist's addendum.

[Suzerain]

(missed this post sometime earlier today)

The problem is that they have no essentia beyond their first few drops without killing something and taking a full minute to extract it. Until they get the Full Round action version, they are more or less strictly inferior to Incarnate levels. It draws attention, and if the DM doesn't allow you to kill off followers or easy-kill enemies, you can easily expect to lose out on essentia during the first encounter each day.

Very true, and a great addition to the class analysis.

The Necrocarnum Zombie trick also works just fine with normal Incarnate levels. Necrocarnate only gives you a 2nd Zombie. The Necrocarnum Zombie isn't that powerful (capped at 20 HD, so incredibly vulnerable to Turn/Rebuke).

I thought I said the same thing? Wasn't really arguing against that.

So I figure since the Necrocarnate's bumping up in power depends on how much you exploit the capstone, I don't see much sense in maintaining a second entry.

[ninjarabbit]

Green Star Adept

Cons: Turns you into a space dust junkie. Only 3/4 BAB and 1/2 spellcasting progression so you're not much of a gish or a spellcaster. Level 10 of GSA screws over your con score and gives you all the drawbacks of being a construct like only being able to heal damage with a repair x spell without a whole lot of the benefits. You lose a bit of dex over the course of your career.

Pros: You do get a few benefits of being a construct like an ageless body, immunity to certain things like poisons and sleep, and damage reduction. In a weird twist the levels of GSA that don't advance your spellcasting do advance your CL so you might not need the practiced spellcaster feat. You can a bit of str and natural armor over the course of your career. You get a slam attack. You eventually get fortification against critical hits and sneak attacks.

[Sinfire Titan]

(missed this post sometime earlier today)

The problem is that they have no essentia beyond their first few drops without killing something and taking a full minute to extract it. Until they get the Full Round action version, they are more or less strictly inferior to Incarnate levels. It draws attention, and if the DM doesn't allow you to kill off followers or easy-kill enemies, you can easily expect to lose out on essentia during the first encounter each day.

Very true, and a great addition to the class analysis.

The Necrocarnum Zombie trick also works just fine with normal Incarnate levels. Necrocarnate only gives you a 2nd Zombie. The Necrocarnum Zombie isn't that powerful (capped at 20 HD, so incredibly vulnerable to Turn/Rebuke).

I thought I said the same thing? Wasn't really arguing against that.

So I figure since the Necrocarnate's bumping up in power depends on how much you exploit the capstone, I don't see much sense in maintaining a second entry.

Oh, then I misread your post.