Why Down Two PrC are Down Two Tiers.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

green star is only good if you then get incarnate construct cast at the end.

Lolz

I have reached the peak of my fluff! I am a robot um more templated normal person!

[snakeman830]

Dirgesinger

Logical Entry: Bard 5

Cons: No spellcasting progression and no advancement of Bardic Music (except for uses/day).  While the class seems to revolve around undead, three of the abilities are useless against them and a fourth is only useful if you have undead allies.  The Requiem feat (a prerequisite for the PrC) doesn't have any effect on the Dirgesong, which I chalk up to bad editing.  In addition, if a foe makes his saving throw on an ability, he's immune to that ability for 24 hours, so the abilities are pretty much all hit or fail and aren't really great when they hit.  There also isn't much you can do to boost the save DC's.  Also, it's a downgrade in skill points from 6 to 4 on a Bard entry.  Song of Awakening is nice except that you can't activate any number of other abilities (including Bardic music and spellcasting, dependant on your chosen Perform skill) while maintaining it.  Yeah...

Pros: It's easy to qualify for, since both skill prerequisites are class skills and you'll be keeping Perform high as a Bard.  If you have undead in the party, Requiem goes from a situational feat to one that you're glad you took.  The abilities do have save DC's which increase at each character level (because you're going to be maxxing out Perform anyway).  Song of Sorrow synergizes well with other Bardic music effects and also Dirgesong, thanks to the penalty on Will saves the targets take.  Finally, Song of Awakening can be pretty cool.  Why not tun that Sorcerer your group just killed into your *itch for the next few hours?  The fact they keep all the abilities they had in life is really nice and if someone else gains control, you just stop performing so they can't have it.  Finally, the PrC is only 5 levels long.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

green star is only good if you then get incarnate construct cast at the end.

Lolz

I have reached the peak of my fluff! I am a robot um more templated normal person!

Wait a second... being a robot SUCKS.

That said, an incarnate construct warforged Artificer 6\Renegade Mastermaker 10\Incarnate construct -2\Green star adept 10\ incarnate construct -2 would be ECL 20 with 26 class levels.  Yeah, there's the downside that you only have the infusion abilities of a level 19 artificer.  I guess you'll have to cry into your massive gish abilities.

[Negative Zero]

That's possibly the best build I've ever seen in my life.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I suppose you'd need to buy the casting of Incarnate Construct from someone.


"What, you again?"

[sonofzeal]

Ollam

Logical Entry: Dwarf Cleric 7, with cross-classed Perform.  At least, that's what the fluff and sample character suggest.  >_>  We shall see....

Cons: Only full casters have the required knowledge skills in core, so easy entry requires cross-classed skills or losing caster levels.  It then further costs caster levels.  Has a race and alignment restriction, which just suck in general.  Nerfs BAB, saves, and spellcasting.  All the class features give benefits too small to really matter.  Lore is useless compared to a Bard's or Loremaster's since the PrC caps out at 5 levels.  Inspire Competence is only a +2, and doesn't stack with most things.  Inspire Resilience gives DR 5/- to a single dwarf, but sucks for non-dwarves.  All in all, takes your Cleric or Wizard and turns them into a pale Bard wannabe.

Pros: The Aristocrat, Expert, and Generic Classes get in with ease.  The Aristocrat and Expert actually get a boost from it, although they'd be better off just taking five levels of Cleric.  Inspire Competence and Inspire Resilience don't have a limit of uses per day, which might actually make the class worthwhile for Bards of all people, since the Lore explicitly stacks.  Bards would also gain full armor and shield proficiency, even if they still have ASF issues and lose BAB/saves/spellcasting in the process.  Wizards can get in at level 7 without multiclassing too, and it gives armor/shield proficiencies as well as good skillpoints and a decent class skill list, so it might allow for fast entry into some PrC or other with only a single lost caster level.

Final Note: Doesn't really properly belong in the "down two" category as it's not so much irredeemable as just massively underwhelming.  About the best thing about it is that it's only five levels long, and doesn't take you too far off whatever path you're on.  Still, it's like salt-less butter, so thoroughly weak-sauce that I'd rather forget it existed.

[sonofzeal]

Wonderworker

Logical Entry: Cleric 5  or  Wizard 5  or  Psion 5

Cons: Requires a thoroughly horrible feat, and one other feat off a pretty weak list.  Requires solid spellcasting, but doesn't properly advance it.  Gives bonus feats off a pretty weak list, a list that you already need feats from to get into the class in the first place, making it profoundly irrelevant.  Gives extra spells/powers per day, but not extra spells/powers known, and what you get can't be shifted.  Predicated on the assumption that you'll want a whole bucketload of Exalted feats for some reason, which is generally a pretty poor assumption.  Takes all three levels of the class just to come ahead from the cost of entering.

Pros: If you've already got 9th level spells/powers, and are solely interested in maximizing those, taking Wonderworker at 18/19/20 is sometimes preferable to staying in the base class (everyone suffers in lower level slots, Sorcerers tie for 9th but lose spells known, Wizards come ahead by 1 but loses a Wizard feat, Clerics and Druids come ahead by 4 but lose in saves/hp/BAB, psions come out massively behind all around).

Final Note: Again, doesn't really properly belong in the "down two" category as it's not so much irredeemable as just underwhelming.  Justifiable, and perhaps even good, for 17th level Clerics and Druids.  Horribly weak at the level it becomes available though, and near-useless for its intended purpose (grabbing Exalted feats).

[sonofzeal]

Apostle of Peace

Logical Entry: Monk 7 or Bard 7 or Paladin 7 (but probably Monk)

Cons: Requires four different Exalted feats to enter, requiring a heavy dedication for most characters.  Requires Vow of Peace, which significantly reduces your number of options in combat.  Requires Vow of Poverty, which significantly reduces your number of options in general.  Generates its own spellcasting rather than building on previous ability, and starts late in the game.  Spell list is limited, weak, and redundant.  Doesn't get 9th level spells any faster than base casters.  Turning is even worse than it is for a Cleric.  Pacifying Touch rendered completely irrelevant by Vow of Nonviolence.  Censure Fiends suffers from the same problems as Turning.  Blatantly contradictory text (Proficiency section and picture both involve magic items, in direct violation of Vow of Poverty).

Pros: Vow of Nonviolence with three good saves means excellent defences, and Vow of Peace means the DCs on any nonlethal abilities (Stunning Fist and Calm Emotions come to mind) will be relatively impressive.  Vow of Poverty, if nabbed early, can mitigate the feat cost for entry.  Gains Gate and Miracle on the spell list.  No Fiends have "censure resistance".

Final Note: Not unsalvageable with a few timely houserules.  Removing Vow of Poverty is a good start.  Vow of Peace itself requires a sensitive hand, but actually benefits from a strict RAW reading.  Works best with a Monk base, using nonlethal damage and Stunning Fist, but the 1/2 BAB is a difficulty.  Would be interesting to gestalt with Beguiler.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

incarnate construct warforged Artificer 6\Renegade Mastermaker 10\Incarnate construct -2\Green star adept 10\ incarnate construct -2 would be ECL 20 with 26 class levels.  Yeah, there's the downside that you only have the infusion abilities of a level 19 artificer.  I guess you'll have to cry into your massive gish abilities.

the last part made me lol. With a flexible DM that's hillarious, but by a strict reading the build doesn't work. The template says "Level Adjustment: -2 (Minimum 0)". Its the minimum zero part that means it goes away if it can't be used. It can only be used with another level adjustment, not your ECL. Remember that level adjustment is defined to be a separate value from class levels.

[CannibalSmith]

MotUH entry should note that taking it later and chaining Telekinesis paints a much better picture for the prestige class. For example:
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870578/X-mens_Jean_Grey,_or_how_to_be_silly_with_MotUH

Alternatively, Arcane Thesis.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

incarnate construct warforged Artificer 6\Renegade Mastermaker 10\Incarnate construct -2\Green star adept 10\ incarnate construct -2 would be ECL 20 with 26 class levels.  Yeah, there's the downside that you only have the infusion abilities of a level 19 artificer.  I guess you'll have to cry into your massive gish abilities.

the last part made me lol. With a flexible DM that's hillarious, but by a strict reading the build doesn't work. The template says "Level Adjustment: -2 (Minimum 0)". Its the minimum zero part that means it goes away if it can't be used. It can only be used with another level adjustment, not your ECL. Remember that level adjustment is defined to be a separate value from class levels.

Eh, throw in some bloodlines and savage progressions then.

[sonofzeal]

Can I put in a request for a "Defiant" write-up? 

[Sinfire Titan]

Talon of Tiamat
[spoiler]Logical Entry: Any class capable of getting +4 BAB by 8th level. Anyone with an Int score to invest CC ranks 4 skills, and willing to burn a feat and a starting language (on a relatively common language by CO standards).

Cons: Half casting (on a class that doesn't even require casting, thus implying the PrC is intended for Wizards or some such), Medium BAB (on a PrC that has a BAB requirement), limited use Breath Weapon (though the damage on it scales somewhat nicely, and a feat can be taken to make it once/1d4 rounds instead of once/day/breath weapon type). Minor bonuses to Bluff (easily outpaced), a really crappy Fear aura (limited by HD), and every major ability is Cha-based (including a 1/day Dominate Dragon). You're better off using Totemist, Dragonfire Adept, or even a Dragon Shaman or Sorcerer over this class.

Pros: The Breath Weapon is actually fairly potent if you take the right feat (14d8 Fire every 1d4 rounds). Dominate Dragons, just because. EX Immunity to one energy type.[/spoiler]

Apostle of Peace
[spoiler]Logical Entry: Any Spellcaster. It has a high Will requirement, a Concentration requirement, and requires 4 feats (two of which are actually eating your feat slots).

Cons: Aside from everything that's wrong with Vow of Peace as is? The fact that prior to Magic of Incarnum, Tome of Battle, or Tome of Magic, the skill requirements could only be met by a 7th level Cleric, Warlock, or Spellthief. Maybe Ranger or Pally. Oh, and the contradictory phrase that lets you use Magic Items while still maintaining VoP. A limited spell list hurts too.

Fact: The bad side of this class is both mechanical and social, as this class imposes some strong restrictions on your allies and you alike. Be prepared for some headaches people.

Pros: Turn Undead, Censor Outsider, and 9th level Divine spells in one class.[/spoiler]

[Junkyarddog]

The lifedrinker pros and cons are labeled backwards.

[Solo]

Or are they?

[ninjarabbit]

Fochlucan Lyrist

Logical entry:..... um yeah that's the problem

Cons:Getting into this PrC is the biggest problem. It requires a lot of skill points, being able to speak druidic, being able to cast 1st level divine and arcane spells, bardic music abilities, evasion, and you'll have to be at ECL 10 before you can get into FL because of requiring 13 ranks in perform. At bare minimum you're looking at something like rogue2/bard2/druid1. The end result is a character that's all over the place before you get into FL and completely sucking for at least half of your pre-epic career.

Pros: FL is nice once you actually get into it: full BAB, full CL progression of both arcane and divine spellcasting, 6 skill points/level, and full progression of bardic knowledge and music. There are ways of possibily getting around some of these requirements like a ring of evasion, the combat medic PrC (a casting PrC that grants evasion), or somehow convincing a druid or ex-druid to teach you druidic. Condensed spellcasting PrCs like sublime chord do make it possible to get 9th level spells.

[deuxhero]

Wait! It explicitly says "bard" casting? Can Divine bard (UA) solve 2 of the requirements? Ask a Loremaster (who has never touched that "no teaching to non-druids" stuff ever) or at least a blighter (he's an idiot if he took that class, so he'll be easy to manipulate) to help with Druidic.

[ninjarabbit]

Wait! It explicitly says "bard" casting? Can Divine bard (UA) solve 2 of the requirements? Ask a Loremaster (who has never touched that "no teaching to non-druids" stuff ever) or at least a blighter (he's an idiot if he took that class, so he'll be easy to manipulate) to help with Druidic.

No it only requires bardic music. If you took divine bard then you'd still need a way to cast 1st level arcane spells.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

That druidic kobold archetype really helps.

[Anklebite]

kobold archetype

so damn true.