Quickie trick: Summon Elemental and Rashemi Elemental Summoning ?

[pfooti]

So, I was fiddling around with a malconvoker / summoner build, and was wondering if Summon Elemental, the reserve feat from CMage, would produce Orglash Air Elementals if the summoner had Rashemi Elemental Summoning.

From Summon Elemental: The elemental acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell (PH 285).
From RES: When casting a spell that summons air or earth elementals ...

The RES text indicates that it doesn't work, since your elemental comes from a reserve feat, not casting a spell. But the word of the reserve feat indicates that you should treat the elemental as if it were summoned by a spell, possibly triggering the RES feat.

It doesn't seem all that broken even if it does work - the Small Air Elemental, if it got Orglash'd, would do 2d6 with its cone of cold. You can do better with other reserve feats, just take Fiery Burst instead. But if you're taking RES anyway, for your regular summons (probably not as a malconvoker, but maybe as a normal summoner), it might be kind of cute.

[Straw_Man]

If it works it'd be a nice little powerup for the Summon Elemental RF. Don't have RES, is there anything else that might pertain in the feat description?

[Caelic]

I'm inclined to say "No."  "The elemental acts as if..." isn't quite the same thing as "The elemental is treated as if..."  The former, taken literally, only dictates that the elemental behaves as would one summoned by the spell--not that it's treated as if it actually had been.

[Stratovarius]

I'm with Caelic on this one. It's being summoned by a feat, not by a spell, which is enough of a difference for me to say it wouldn't work.

[ksbsnowowl]

I also throw my hat in for "doesn't work."

I looked this up soon after getting Complete Mage, and came to the same answer.

[jameswilliamogle]

I don't think it works either.

I'm not sure why they put that text in SE though...  Probably to indicate that it vanishes in a Su field?  I dunno...  As worded, Augment Summoning wouldn't work w/ it either.

[Sinfire Titan]

The very text you quoted from both feats proves it does not work, as the others have said.

From Summon Elemental: The elemental acts as if summoned by a summon monster spell (PH 285).
From RES: When casting a spell that summons air or earth elementals ...

Thus, if no spell was cast, no benefits are triggered. This is the same thing that happens in MTG, if it says you have to play the card from your hand, you have to play the card normally to get the effect.

[Morokael]

Which enhanced summoning feats do work with the Summon Elemental feat then?

[Sinfire Titan]

Which enhanced summoning feats do work with the Summon Elemental feat then?

Not sure. Augment Summons doesn't, as it too triggers off of spells. There aren't that many, and I think they all key off of casting something, not SU tricks like Reserve Feats.

[pfooti]

Devil's advocate: the Augment Summoning feat says "Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it." Again with the specific mention of "summon spell".

However, saying that the summoned elemental from the feat "acts as if it were summoned by a summon monster spell" could pretty easily be interpreted to mean that it is stronger and has a higher con. Or acts by casting a cone of cold SLA. I'm not entirely convinced it's as cut-and-dry as Sinfire Titan is making it out to be, and most of the people who write about summoners in the handbooks (the conjurer's guide, the malconvoker guide) argue that Augment Summoning DOES affect Elemental Summoning.

Either way, it's a tiny boost, since most of the time you summon these guys out of combat.

[Sinfire Titan]

Devil's advocate: the Augment Summoning feat says "Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength and Constitution for the duration of the spell that summoned it." Again with the specific mention of "summon spell".

However, saying that the summoned elemental from the feat "acts as if it were summoned by a summon monster spell" could pretty easily be interpreted to mean that it is stronger and has a higher con. Or acts by casting a cone of cold SLA. I'm not entirely convinced it's as cut-and-dry as Sinfire Titan is making it out to be, and most of the people who write about summoners in the handbooks (the conjurer's guide, the malconvoker guide) argue that Augment Summoning DOES affect Elemental Summoning.

Either way, it's a tiny boost, since most of the time you summon these guys out of combat.

You make a point there, but as in MTG, a Copy of a Spell is not a spell in its own right despite the fact that they can indeed function similarly. To say that Summon Elemental gets the benefits of Augment Summons is akin to saying a Warlock/Fighter can enter an unmodified Eldritch Knight. Being able to mimic a spell with an ability does not count as being able to cast the spell in question.

I honestly don't think it is game-breaking myself to allow, but it is against the RAW of the two feats. One is triggered off of casting a spell, the other one is a supernatural ability. As a DM, I'd freely allow it to work myself. But my side of the argument is that they were never supposed to interact at all.

[Straw_Man]

Have there been previous instances of the "acts as if" which establish precedent for how to treat it? Because by liberal reading acts as if should treat the feat summon as if the summon monster spell was casting it.

[ksbsnowowl]

I don't know.  A 13th level character getting unlimited 8d6 cones of cold, especially since at least 2/3 of them would be as a "free" action (so far as the character is concerned), would be in the upper reaches of power, IMO.

Granted, it is only damage, and it's only 8d6, but the fact that it is an independent being doing it every round, basically being quickened (so far as the character is concerned) is where it becomes a bit too "free" for my tastes.

[pfooti]

You make a point there, but as in MTG, a Copy of a Spell is not a spell in its own right despite the fact that they can indeed function similarly. To say that Summon Elemental gets the benefits of Augment Summons is akin to saying a Warlock/Fighter can enter an unmodified Eldritch Knight. Being able to mimic a spell with an ability does not count as being able to cast the spell in question.

I'm not convinced by the MTG <-> D&D argument, really. But I do believe that Spell-Like abilities don't count as spells for things, the same issue happens with the Factotum's SLAs in certain places, I believe.

I think the tricky bit is where we ask: what does the phrase in Summon Elemental mean? The easiest thing to say is: "DM Call", since absent a sage ruling on the matter, we can just argue about it.

In order to get the 8d6 cone of cold, you need a large orglash, which requires an 8th-level reserve spell. Now, a standard action to create a thingamajig that shoots 8d6 damage cone of colds for the next 8 rounds is pretty efficient, for certain, especially if you're getting it for free because you already had RES and SU for a standard summoner build.

[Sinfire Titan]

You make a point there, but as in MTG, a Copy of a Spell is not a spell in its own right despite the fact that they can indeed function similarly. To say that Summon Elemental gets the benefits of Augment Summons is akin to saying a Warlock/Fighter can enter an unmodified Eldritch Knight. Being able to mimic a spell with an ability does not count as being able to cast the spell in question.

I'm not convinced by the MTG <-> D&D argument, really. But I do believe that Spell-Like abilities don't count as spells for things, the same issue happens with the Factotum's SLAs in certain places, I believe.

I think the tricky bit is where we ask: what does the phrase in Summon Elemental mean? The easiest thing to say is: "DM Call", since absent a sage ruling on the matter, we can just argue about it.

In order to get the 8d6 cone of cold, you need a large orglash, which requires an 8th-level reserve spell. Now, a standard action to create a thingamajig that shoots 8d6 damage cone of colds for the next 8 rounds is pretty efficient, for certain, especially if you're getting it for free because you already had RES and SU for a standard summoner build.

I consider it a proper argument considering that WotC produces both games. Some of the rulings they make coincide with the comparison between the two systems.

[chaos_redefined]

Like the stack... oh wait... no, the stack doesn't work the same in magic as it does in D&D...

OK... like enchant creatures/spells affecting a creature that changes type.  oh wait... nope...  Sorry...  A human affected by a charm person spell, and wildshapes using the old rules for wildshape was still charmed.  In comparison, a llanowar elf with a wurmweaver coil on it will lose the coil if it changes color.

There are plenty of differences between magic and D&D when it comes to the technical stuff (such as this topic) that relying on a comparison is not the best of ideas.

However, the best person to ask would be your DM.  I'm pretty sure that the summoning handbook specifies that it is shaky territory, and you should ask your DM anyway.

[Radijs]

They are two unrelated systems, they are even two structually diffrent games. Comparing them will only lead to confusion. This is DND and aside from the publisher, the games have got nothing to do with each other.

[Morokael]

I don't know.  A 13th level character getting unlimited 8d6 cones of cold, especially since at least 2/3 of them would be as a "free" action (so far as the character is concerned), would be in the upper reaches of power, IMO.

How does one get unlimited 8d6 cones of cold from the Summon Elemental feat?

[Radijs]

Rashemi Elemental summoning turns any air elemental in to an Orglash which gets cone of cold as an SLA with a caster level equal to their hit dice.

[Morokael]

Ah. Thanks.