Why each class is in its tier.

[Midnight_v]

but it gives a Fighter something worth something better than Fighter Feats.

Does it? Does it really? To me thats a point of contention.
Unless the argument is one of "rarity" its not really all that different or great.
Arguing that the fighter has "Plenty of feats but only 1 chance for dungeon crasher for example" meh, depends on the feat.
Lets say non-human fighter 6 for example has 7 feats. 3 of Which can be: Shocktrooper, Power Attack, bullrush.
The other 4 could be something like: Education, Knowledge: devotion, Rapid Shot, Martial Study or any of those feats that
or Dodge, Combat Reflexes, Karmic Strike, Combat expertise.
Even Jaronk admits that it stops being a good schickt passed level 6, but moreso It isn't really statistically better at any level because greatswords can still kill most critters, so can a dedicated tripper. Or a standstill artist. Etc. . .

I could be barking up the wrong tree.

[Shiki]

Well, I'd say that most Fighter Feats aren't really worth a damn. You can make a quick list of the best things a Fighter can get by looking up at Lockdown, Jack B. Quick, archetypal chargers, archetypal archers, throwers of some sorts. Not sure if there's some other Fighter Feat(s) out there that is/are worth anything. After sifting through countless walls of text about melee builds of sorts for some time now, I think Fighter 6 can be an okay investment of levels AKA can be used for good effects, as far as hitting people w/ a stick can be your thing during a fight.

[Tshern]

I think the ACFs always have an impact on the tier unless they fundamentally change the class, in which case they have a completely different entry all to themselves, i.e. Wild Shape Ranger is Tier 3, Swift Hunter is Tier 3, and every other Ranger is Tier 4.

What exactly puts Swift Hunter to Tier 3?

[zugschef]

I think the ACFs always have an impact on the tier unless they fundamentally change the class, in which case they have a completely different entry all to themselves, i.e. Wild Shape Ranger is Tier 3, Swift Hunter is Tier 3, and every other Ranger is Tier 4.

What exactly puts Swift Hunter to Tier 3?

yup, exactly what i wondered, too.

[Tshern]

To me Swift Hunter just seems to be able to dish quite a bit of situational damage (range and movement issues), which shouldn't warrant anything higher than Tier 4. They can contribute a bit in the skills department, but so far I haven't seen a single Swift Hunter utilising the actually powerful skills like Diplomacy or UMD.

[Sinfire Titan]

I think the ACFs always have an impact on the tier unless they fundamentally change the class, in which case they have a completely different entry all to themselves, i.e. Wild Shape Ranger is Tier 3, Swift Hunter is Tier 3, and every other Ranger is Tier 4.

Swift Hunter isn't an ACF, it's a feat.

[X-Codes]

I think the ACFs always have an impact on the tier unless they fundamentally change the class, in which case they have a completely different entry all to themselves, i.e. Wild Shape Ranger is Tier 3, Swift Hunter is Tier 3, and every other Ranger is Tier 4.

Swift Hunter isn't an ACF, it's a feat.

Glad I can count on you to pick my nits.

To me Swift Hunter just seems to be able to dish quite a bit of situational damage (range and movement issues), which shouldn't warrant anything higher than Tier 4. They can contribute a bit in the skills department, but so far I haven't seen a single Swift Hunter utilising the actually powerful skills like Diplomacy or UMD.

Why bother with UMD?  SotAO gives Wizard spells.  It also doesn't limit your access to just 1st-4th level Wizard spells, so if you want to use higher-level stuff then just use a scroll.  You don't even need to UMD wands of CLW or Lesser Vigor, because you've got No UMD required.  As for the "range and movement issues," those issues are present in a number of other T3 classes as well: they have to go into melee range and deal damage and have even less access to some means of flight.

[zugschef]

SotAO gives Wizard spells.

and how exactly is that unique to a swift hunter?

[X-Codes]

SotAO gives Wizard spells.

and how exactly is that unique to a swift hunter?

It's not, but you're missing the point.  Why does a Swift Hunter need to use UMD to be awesome when he can already use upwards of 80% of all the wands, scrolls, or whatever you're likely to want in the first place?  Nevermind the fact that you've got an Animal Companion, Wild Empathy, and Handle Animal as a class skill.

I thought it was discussed in another thread that skill optimization generally only got a character as far as Tier 5, anyway.

[zugschef]

]It's not, but you're missing the point.  Why does a Swift Hunter need to use UMD to be awesome when he can already use upwards of 80% of all the wands, scrolls, or whatever you're likely to want in the first place?  Nevermind the fact that you've got an Animal Companion, Wild Empathy, and Handle Animal as a class skill.

I thought it was discussed in another thread that skill optimization generally only got a character as far as Tier 5, anyway.

now what exactly IS your point? if sotao is irrelevant why do you mention it as an argument? i still don't see a single reason why a swift hunter should be considered tier 3 material.

[SorO_Lost]

SorO_Lost brought up that Monk thing pages back, and also that Barbarian thing, which resulted into you bringing up Dungeon Crasher, etc.

I see the points with Bungeoncrasher.

While I think the Barbarian needs to be T5 and Pounce can be obtained by various means. Lion Totem certain is in fact effectively quadrupling the standard Barbarian's damage (more with haste/blinding bracers/etc). It isn't a change in play style but it is a massive improvement over the standard Barb. Same with the DMD for the Monk, being Concealed all the time of course has it's own huge advantages for combat alone, it's not some +2 to something buff. Take a 5ft step after attacking and it's a one in eight shot of attacking the right square for a 50% chance to hit IE 1:16 hit ratio. It prevents target based spells and the Monk's Evasion helps prevent Area spells so you've cut 90% of the spells printed from hitting you (our favorite saveless area spells still work of course). And offensively it's loss of Dex to AC and +2 to attack rolls which can turn out to be a decent increase in chance to hit which when you are a 2/3 BAB class with options for more attacks with less aim a built in effective +2~+10 bonus can be pretty damn great.

Dungeoncrasher on the other hand. When you first get it maybe you are dealing more than charging a foe but it adds a wall requirement. Later on it simply doesn't deal as much as Charging. It's better than any Fighter feat, but not better than his already obtained options. Also someone mentioned SotAO as being a boost to the Paladin, it may not be a Variant or a ACF, but I think it should be noted as well as it also vastly improves the class. Though I don't think it would bump the Ranger up, T3 has full casters/martial adapts and a half caster can't match that no matter how his spell selection improves.

[zugschef]

Same with the DMD for the Monk, being Concealed all the time of course has it's own huge advantages for combat alone, it's not some +2 to something buff.

the impact is really huge... you can totally ignore your ac among other things, because your defense is pretty much set. it changes the way you build your monk fundamentally.

[X-Codes]

]It's not, but you're missing the point.  Why does a Swift Hunter need to use UMD to be awesome when he can already use upwards of 80% of all the wands, scrolls, or whatever you're likely to want in the first place?  Nevermind the fact that you've got an Animal Companion, Wild Empathy, and Handle Animal as a class skill.

I thought it was discussed in another thread that skill optimization generally only got a character as far as Tier 5, anyway.

now what exactly IS your point? if sotao is irrelevant why do you mention it as an argument? i still don't see a single reason why a swift hunter should be considered tier 3 material.

Are you paying attention at all?  Tshern made the assertion that the Swift Hunter doesn't make awesome use of UMD, the point of SotAO is that he doesn't have to.  It's not that SotAO is irrelevant, it's that SotAO makes UMD irrelevant.

With SotAO, the Swift Hunter's spellcasting is comparable to an Adept (a little slower, but a substantially better list), plus it has actual damage potential (Skirmish damage that penetrates Immunity) and makes use of a wide range of skills (trapfinding + trap springing skills, spotting skills, stealth, and Handle Animal with complimentary class abilities, probably also Poison Use through an ACF somewhere).  If you add in some methods for gaining more class skills, you easily have the points necessary to fully fund a Diplomonster or can cover the need for some UMD with SotAO.

If the difference between Tier 3 and Tier 4 is versatility, the Swift Hunter has it.

[Shiki]

Dungeoncrasher on the other hand. When you first get it maybe you are dealing more than charging a foe but it adds a wall requirement. Later on it simply doesn't deal as much as Charging. It's better than any Fighter feat, but not better than his already obtained options.

Just saying, a Samurai can charge aswell. Having the option to is better than not having the option to, which is what I like about Dungeon Crasher. By itself, as levels goes by, it loses effectiveness but you can mix it in an AoO build of sorts and it can do okay, me thinks. What I'm saying is, Charging isn't the all and all of what a melee character can do, IMO.

[X-Codes]

Dungeoncrasher on the other hand. When you first get it maybe you are dealing more than charging a foe but it adds a wall requirement. Later on it simply doesn't deal as much as Charging. It's better than any Fighter feat, but not better than his already obtained options.

Just saying, a Samurai can charge aswell. Having the option to is better than not having the option to, which is what I like about Dungeon Crasher. By itself, as levels goes by, it loses effectiveness but you can mix it in an AoO build of sorts and it can do okay, me thinks. What I'm saying is, Charging isn't the all and all of what a melee character can do, IMO.

Bull Rushing by itself also repositions enemies and potentially provokes AoOs if you push them past an allied character.  It would be as viable of a tactic as Tripping if Tripping didn't have such a better "Improved" feat associated with it.  Dungeoncrasher provides that bonus that Tripping got in the PHB but that Bull Rushing didn't.

Also, pretty much anything that helps out Tripping also helps out Bull Rushing, so there's really not much of a reason to not incorporate Dungeon Crasher into a Tripping build.