Author Topic: WLD: Most balanced campaign?  (Read 38460 times)

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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« on: July 15, 2009, 12:55:03 PM »
I got my hands on WLD the other day I thought I noticed something. Is it just me or does this campaign plug a lot of gaps in 3.5's balance? It goes like this:

Lets say you have a strict DM who optimizes fairly equally with the players.
He doesn't have magic-marts and you enter WLD at level 1.
He keeps to the dungeon's no ethereal-travel-through-walls property
He uses the no-summoning/teleporting or plane shifting out option, the no full spellbook option, and the you will barely ever sleep seriousness. Continuous random encounters causing boredom could be scaled back to running them only when they decide to stop and get sleep. He keeps to WBL, enforces multiclass penalties, and already fixed the broken aspects with a smart list.
He rolls a random encounter every hour (there is still a chance you get lucky and have none, but you won't know ahead of time.
He calculates flat xp gains based on area, so no farming random encounters for crafting XP.
He isn't assured to give you every PrC you want but he will at least allow all 3.5 sources.

I got thinking at how this campaign would really nerf the tier 1's. Specifically:
Wizards[spoiler]Collegiate wizard has been echoed as a must. However rarely will one get the uninterrupted sleep/trance required for spellcasting. They aren't gauranteed an upgraded familiar and the feats only help for another class.[/spoiler]Druid[spoiler]The you-can't-summon effect means your spontaneous casting (which you won't ever have the peace and quiet for) is useless. This also means you can't summon creatures in order to be familiar enough with them for wildshaping. Looks like you will need to be the sub-par shapeshifting variant :(. Your other class features aren't that great for dungeon crawling. Woodland stride! ... oh wait.[/spoiler]
Clerics[spoiler]Your spells still need meditation. Turn undead and domain abilities will still work but alone they make you down a few tiers.[/spoiler]
Archivists[spoiler]I can research any spell! Oh nevermind. But you still get 2 per level.[/spoiler]
Erudites[spoiler]No sleep for PP and not much research, sigh.[/spoiler]
Artificers[spoiler]You also need peace and quiet. But you can still craft... kinda. Any help with them would be appreciated CO, since I never bothered to learn their exceptions. Unlike the rest this class is useful after level 1 - all the way up to 5 without casting.[/spoiler]

However tier 2 Sorcerers will do fine if they don't need to sleep (warforged). Favored Souls and Wu Jens have similar casting, but psions, ardents, and spirit shamans get a nerf (because they are the coolest tier 2's  :lol)

Tier 3 is where the options really start to bloom. Let me know, CO, if you want my dip-depth and usefulness list.

I have been thinking recently about how to crack it and my results have been rather specific. As you can see Druid20 doesn't cut it  ;)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2009, 12:01:54 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
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woodenbandman

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2009, 01:47:37 PM »
I've run part of it at level 1, and it's rather balanced. Dragonborn Warforged Totemist for the WIN. Also making an appearance was the Dragonborn Gnome Bard with Hymn of Healing, and the Dragonborn Mongrelfolk Dragonfire Adept with Entangling Exhalation.

So you see, it's not really a "balanced" game, it's more of a "different" game. Obviously multiclassing penalties are silly, so I wouldn't enforce those, but by nerfing the tier 1s pretty hard, it does help bring balance back, a little. However, a druid still wildshapes, still has an animal companion, still has Wild Empathy (Can you say pokemans?) still has Shilleghlae (It's just a matter of dumping Dex and pumping strength at low levels), can take the shapeshift variant if he wants (So, it's all day instead of waiting until level 5, and I don't need items? Cool, I'm like the cleric without the cleric). So, yeah, they're less broken, but still good. Same goes for all the other tier 1s (unless you never hit a spellbook ever, which you definitely do).

juton

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2009, 02:23:28 PM »
Most balanced, sure it's one of them. Is it completely balanced, no not really. From what I've read the balancing seems to make Tier 3s even better, makes Tier 1s a bit worse, but Tier 5s will still suck hard. Still I would love to try it, because it's just so different, I think different dynamics will emerge which will make for an intersting game.

Negative Zero

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2009, 03:46:41 PM »
I got thinking at how this campaign would really nerf the tier 1's. Specifically, Wizards pretty much never get any spells above level 1, nor could they get the uninterrupted sleep/trance required for spellcasting. They aren't gauranteed an upgraded familiar and the feats only help for another class. However tier 2 Sorcerers will do fine if they don't need to sleep (warforged).

Well, Wizards still get their base of 2 spells known per level, meaning that they get at least 4 spells known of each spell level (unless they want more of a lower level). Sorcerers need 8 hours of sleep, just like Wizards do. Even a Warforged Sorcerer needs to rest for 8 hours, just as a Warforged Wizard would.

Nachofan99

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2009, 04:09:59 PM »
The problem with most players is that if you put them up against a wide variety of encounters and situations (you know, like the DMG tells you to do), they are eventually going to fail, and they don't like failing.

WLD is good and balanced because it FORCES you to experience a wide variety of situations that EQUALLY PENALIZE all characters, regardless of class, over the course of the entire campaign.

As the wizard gets more and more "reality checks" the fighter (gee I wonder how?) starts looking better and better in comparison.

No rest? GG class features
Damn, where did I put my spell components that I don't even have anymore because I'm in WLD?
d4 HD at low levels? GG to trying to survive to 3rd level
Don't know every spell ever created ever? Welcome to reality, where there isn't an easy solution 1 spell away all day, every day.

All of these drawbacks *and far more* are included in 3.5, it's just that they aren't used enough, enforced enough, or known well enough to ever see play-time.  And I can partly understand that, because your player's might *FEEL* they are getting hosed unfairly, but the simple fact is there are drawbacks and limitations to *everything* - otherwise everyone would be a wizard (or cleric, or druid - archivist kinda has his own built in limitation pretty explicitly laid out). But whatever, rant over.

WLD is good.


Alastar

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2009, 06:07:43 PM »
Or, you know, take collegiate wizard and call it a day?

I've been dming WLD, and have enforced the preset spellbook rule, and so far, the wizard in my party does not feel gimped at all.  Granted, he's a gish, but still, no problem.

They have an artificer with them, that helps.

But yeah, in such cramped spaces, fighters realy shine, specially dungeoncrasher variant fighters.  It's almost as if they're made to fight in the dungeon.... weird...

pfooti

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2009, 07:16:55 PM »
I hate the WLD. I hate it because the designers were lazy. It had so very much exciting potential. But then they went and said that you can't take 10s and 20s in this dungeon. That's stupid, plain and simple. It's lazy design. Whenever I have a DM that tells me I can't take 20, I just say, "fine. I'll search / open lock / try whatever 20 times". Taking 10 is the same. Increasing the time it takes to take 20 (one of their suggested changes) is also stupid.

Other than that, any campaign that limits spell access by wizards and doesn't contain a magic-mart is less likely to have runaway power creep, however that doesn't mean much - if "standard" CR/EL rules assume normally-equipped characters, and highly-tuned characters blow them away, undergeared characters will get blown away in turn. Game balance is a delicate thing in something like D&D, and whatever works for some groups won't work for others, but restricting PC access to magic and spells is certainly a good start.

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2009, 07:20:26 PM »
A Cleric only needs 1 hour to pray of every 24 for his spells by RAW.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2009, 08:25:21 PM »
I agree that the "no taking 10 or 20" rule is incredibly stupid.
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Solo

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2009, 08:25:47 PM »
Quote
As the wizard gets more and more "reality checks" the fighter (gee I wonder how?) starts looking better and better in comparison.
The same fighter that can't regain HP through rest or clerical healing?

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Negative Zero

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2009, 08:26:39 PM »
So, more accurately, Crusaders start looking really good. Or Tomb-Tainted parties.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2009, 08:29:02 PM »
Incorporeality, is normally incredible, but the WLD makes it even better.


Wait a second... summons stick around but are insane, IIRC.  Dread necromancers can cast summon undead and just rebuke/command them.
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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2009, 08:32:41 PM »
True, but round/level isn't a long time to spend actions rebuking your summons.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2009, 08:34:54 PM »
True, but round/level isn't a long time to spend actions rebuking your summons.

I thought that they never went away?

Maybe my DM did some houseruling.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 08:36:50 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2009, 08:40:15 PM »
Animate Dead, Create Undead, etc., should work that way, but the Summon Undead line is comparable to the Summon Monster line last I checked.

Kaelik

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 08:42:32 PM »
First things First, Wood and Solo? Maybe it was archer?

Anyone wanna hit that up?

I'm thinking make a WLD game, looking for a DM, some specific rules against the WLD, like bullshit XP penalizing, since this is PbP and slow enough as is, and obviously the take 10/20 rule.

probably not looking for too many more new players, but 1-2 couldn't hurt. Thought I'd mention this here since this is a WLD thread, and likely to have people interested who might not normally visit the PbP section of the board. Definitely need a DM though.

Also, yeah, summons are indefinite as punishment for daring to summon. That's part of the WLD suggested houserules. The point is that Dread Necros (And Clerics) can turn that supposed punishment into an infinite source of free minions.

No rest? GG class features
Damn, where did I put my spell components that I don't even have anymore because I'm in WLD?
d4 HD at low levels? GG to trying to survive to 3rd level
Don't know every spell ever created ever? Welcome to reality, where there isn't an easy solution 1 spell away all day, every day.

Ropetrick
spell component pouch contains everything you ever need from level 1
d4 HD and better con than most characters, also, really easy to stay back.
Collegiate Wizard gives enough spells for any Wizard I've ever had.

Not that any of this even remotely addresses Druid the Greatest of Greats or Cleric The Second Greatest of Greats. Or my Level 1 Wizard with 6 level 1 spells per day (9 known), 4 cantrips that do cloudy conjuration, 9 immediate action teleports, AC 14, 10HP, and saves of -4/+3/+8, and better spot/listen checks then most any other level 1 character. Admittedly, those Fort saves are a bitch. WTB Polymorph.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 08:53:39 PM by Kaelik »

Alastar

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 09:19:38 PM »
A good thing, if someone wants to play that, is to take a shadow sun ninja.

My party has that and the artificier took tomb tainted soul, INFINITE HEALING!

Solo

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 09:32:31 PM »
How do you get -4 to fort saves?

"I am the Black Mage! I cast the spells that makes the peoples fall down!"

The Legend RPG, which I worked on and encourage you to read.

Shadowhunter

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2009, 09:48:29 PM »
Quote
Ropetrick
spell component pouch contains everything you ever need from level 1
d4 HD and better con than most characters, also, really easy to stay back.
Collegiate Wizard gives enough spells for any Wizard I've ever had.

First things first, ropetrick won't work since every spell that relies upon extradimensional spaces flat out won't work in WLD.
So dump-statting Str isn't as free of pain as it is usually.

By RAW, a spell component pouch never runs out, but I for one haven't met any DM that actually allow that. YMMV.

When the book mentions useful skills to possess to repair items, replace lost pieces and such matters, I find it hard to belive they haven't included spell components into that. Let's face it, normal campaign senarios won't delve into the fact that sooner or later the party will need to repair their shoes (regardless of how that would be done, Mending or not) and neither does it matter itself with components. WLD is another beast entierly. Go figure, most modules aren't made to involve the PC's for 2 years straight in game.
Once again, YMMV. The level of attention to details your DM possess pretty much rules this entierly.

The thing about wizards getting hosed is the fact that those spells they gain every level, they gain from studies.
Sure, those doesn't cost anything to inscribe into their spellbooks, but it is still gained through studies and available resource materials. The authours mention this, that there's little inside WLD that gives the opportunity to do so.

Admitedly, they mention a way to circumvent that, that I would use, would I ever play/DM WLD:
Wizards starts of with a full spellbook, which they master graduallly.

Not to mention the availability of lightsources, which admitedly a good party should have covered, but still exist.


The thing about summons is that only one of the options are for them to stick around but they're insane.
Another one is that the spells flat out won't work. It all boils down to DM fiat.

Now, WLD have its shares of problems though, this isn't a fanboy rant.

Whilst it maintain its claim to include every kind of monster, some of the areas are litterally crawling with one kind, making it a bit counterproductive to the unique feeling.

WLD haven't got many options for social interactions, but if you'e after such matters you shouldn't have started it in the first place.

The "can't take 10/20" is plain out stupid, for the reasons pfooti mentioned

My biggest no-no about WLD is that replacing characters are hard. Tossing in a new character that have been there some time before the party is pretty much the only way and I for one think that's a bit cheap. But that's just me.

That said, I'd actually would like to order a "I survived World's Largest Dungeon and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" t-shirt and not be a liar. It takes luck and skills to get through that module in one piece and I'd like to try it.
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JaronK

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Re: WLD: Most balanced campaign?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 10:39:35 PM »
Collegate Wizard pretty much solves the Wizard issue.  Geometer helps too, if it comes to that, though having time to do research is hard. 

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