Why Tier 2s are Tier 2s

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added Samb's psion description.

I'll likely post tier 1 tomorrow, or later tonight depending on whether my coworker will be in. Just got the Binder online vestiges left.

[JaronK]

The Binder one is easy.  One of the vestiges lets you cast Summon Monster as though you were a sorcerer of your binder level once per 5 rounds (so at Binder 16, you can cast Summon Monster VIII at caster level 16).  This lets you keep up and endless stream of versitile minions up all the time, often with nifty spell like abilities to help out.  They even get a template.  Other vestiges make you an incredible item crafter as well.

JaronK

[SorO_Lost]

Which visage does that?

[Negative Zero]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718

Zceryll.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added JaronK's description of a Binder vestige and Negative Zero's link to online vestiges.

See you all in Tier 1!

[woodenbandman]

There is that temp PP trick in ToM

Which one?

Psycarnum Infusion + Azure Talent.

Expend your psionic focus, get power points!

[awaken DM golem]

Magic of Incarnum - and don't forget the 1pp Cognizance Crystal, to have the 1 pp "available", so you can re-obtain Psi-Focus after expending it.

**

G Cheese - why'd you go and post the Tier 1 thread already?! Yer stealing the thunder of the Tier 2s. It's not fay-yer (pout).

**

Ardent
Pro - Very easy psi-Gish builds. Access to any power via Mind's Eye Substitute Powers. Tleilaxu_Ghola liked them so much, he made TWO threads about them. CO-trickery makes it the psionic early entry and early advancement class. Think of it as a Psychic Warrior without the feats, but with 7s 8s and 9s. Can be used to "fix" any ML losing PrC, thus un-violating one of Caelic's commandments. Can take Schism and Metamorph earlier than any other Psi-class, so you win. Can lose 4 ML but still have it's full top end casting. Can lose 7 ML and still have access to 9s. Is the preferred dual caster class, for Psi + Arcane or Divine.

Con - Without Mind's Eye updates, the power selection was/is very funky. You have 1/2 the "spells" of a Cleric, that does almost the exact same things. You have to take Practiced Manifester feat, to get the most important rule advantage. Can't really be built for a Lock-style build. Carnivore still preferred Psion over Ardent, when making Tashalatora Monk builds. You have to open the Complete Psionic book to read about it, and make a saving throw against nausea ... 

[Solo]

Sorcerers become significantly more flexible if you allow Psychic Reformation, though the XP costs will mean that you can't use it very often.

Of course, if you rebuild correctly, you shouldn't have to  use it very often.

One thing to keep in mind about sorcerers vs wizards is that in most games, wizards can't be played to their fullest extent, so the power gap narrows a little.

Still, the class is poorly designed. There is no reason for the slower spell progression.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added Solo's sorcerer stuff.

To Awaken DM Golem: Ardent?

[lans]

Sorcerers become significantly more flexible if you allow Psychic Reformation, though the XP costs will mean that you can't use it very often.

Of course, if you rebuild correctly, you shouldn't have to  use it very often.

One thing to keep in mind about sorcerers vs wizards is that in most games, wizards can't be played to their fullest extent, so the power gap narrows a little.

Still, the class is poorly designed. There is no reason for the slower spell progression.

The trick is to make an item of it. I believe for a 20th level character it would cost under 20k.

[Necrosnoop110]

In regards to Psions: Pros: 1.) Power points are far easier to keep track of than spell-slots

I don't really get this one. How is keeping a running tally of numbers easier than just crosses off spell-slot boxes?

Thanks,
Neco

PS - Loves your work (all involved as well)  

[snakeman830]

In regards to Psions: Pros: 1.) Power points are far easier to keep track of than spell-slots

I don't really get this one. How is keeping a running tally of numbers easier than just crosses off spell-slot boxes?

Thanks,
Neco

PS - Loves your work (all involved as well)  

Because you're dealing with one easily adjusted number instead of 30+ boxes spread over 10 levels.  Takes up a heck of a lot less room on a character sheet.

[Sinfire Titan]

In regards to Psions: Pros: 1.) Power points are far easier to keep track of than spell-slots

I don't really get this one. How is keeping a running tally of numbers easier than just crosses off spell-slot boxes?

Thanks,
Neco

PS - Loves your work (all involved as well)  

Was this thread necro absolutely required? Seriously, thread's been dead for two years.

[Necrosnoop110]

In regards to Psions: Pros: 1.) Power points are far easier to keep track of than spell-slots

I don't really get this one. How is keeping a running tally of numbers easier than just crosses off spell-slot boxes?

Thanks,
Neco

PS - Loves your work (all involved as well)  

Was this thread necro absolutely required? Seriously, thread's been dead for two years.

(1) It was necro-ed before I got to it.
(2) I never understood peoples negative reaction to thread necro-ing. What's the big deal?

Peace,
Necro

[Sinfire Titan]

(1) It was necro-ed before I got to it.
(2) I never understood peoples negative reaction to thread necro-ing. What's the big deal?

1: BS, and you know it.
2: Because you can start a new thread and get a much more accurate answer instead of having newer readers read through the entire thread and having older readers think you are contributing something important.


Thread necromancy is fine here (to an extent; we'd like it more if the necromancer contributed something important), but other forums don't like it.

[Lycanthromancer]

In regards to Psions: Pros: 1.) Power points are far easier to keep track of than spell-slots

I don't really get this one. How is keeping a running tally of numbers easier than just crosses off spell-slot boxes?

Thanks,
Neco

PS - Loves your work (all involved as well)  

Because basic addition and subtraction should be easy for anyone outside of grade school?

[Necrosnoop110]

In regards to Psions: Pros: 1.) Power points are far easier to keep track of than spell-slots

I don't really get this one. How is keeping a running tally of numbers easier than just crosses off spell-slot boxes?

Thanks,
Neco

PS - Loves your work (all involved as well)  

Because basic addition and subtraction should be easy for anyone outside of grade school?

I personally have no problems either way. It just seems like it is simple addition and subtraction with numbers of power points one way and with number of spell slots the other way.

[Lycanthromancer]

In regards to Psions: Pros: 1.) Power points are far easier to keep track of than spell-slots

I don't really get this one. How is keeping a running tally of numbers easier than just crosses off spell-slot boxes?

Thanks,
Neco

PS - Loves your work (all involved as well)  

Because basic addition and subtraction should be easy for anyone outside of grade school?

I personally have no problems either way. It just seems like it is simple addition and subtraction with numbers of power points one way and with number of spell slots the other way.

It's one number as opposed to ten numbers (number of slots from 0-10). Generally smaller numbers of numbers are easier to manage.

[Necrosnoop110]

In regards to Psions: Pros: 1.) Power points are far easier to keep track of than spell-slots

I don't really get this one. How is keeping a running tally of numbers easier than just crosses off spell-slot boxes?

Thanks,
Neco

PS - Loves your work (all involved as well)  

Because basic addition and subtraction should be easy for anyone outside of grade school?

I personally have no problems either way. It just seems like it is simple addition and subtraction with numbers of power points one way and with number of spell slots the other way.

It's one number as opposed to ten numbers (number of slots from 0-10). Generally smaller numbers of numbers are easier to manage.

Alright, I'll concede. I'm easy. Just doesn't seem like that big of a difference.

[Jackinthegreen]

I've known people that prefer multiple small number over single larger ones, and vice versa.  After thinking about it for a bit, I'd say I prefer spell slots if only because that's what I'm used to.  At each new level I make note of how many slots I have per level, then fill up the slots with a set of spells.  I don't have to keep track of how many PP I just spent since one spell is one slot, period.  I mark that off on my paper as being used for the day.  Admittedly, if I felt like learning psionics right now it'd be easy to memorize how many PP each power takes up per level.  That's just me though.  *shrug*

While we're on the subject of Tier 2's though, I'm curious about how people would interpret the Arcane Swordsage variant described along with the Unarmed version.  Replace a maneuver with a spell from the sorc/wiz list?  T2 at least.  Wait a sec, he recovers these spells just like maneuvers by spending a full round action in meditation?  O_O  Sure he can only ready 12 at a time, but he can cast them as many times per day as he wants.  Still probably T2 due to limited spells known, but being able to use these spells essentially as many times per day as he wants is quite powerful.