Author Topic: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"  (Read 21886 times)

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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #80 on: July 09, 2009, 04:27:49 AM »
I'll re-iterate for your benefit Kell: Bloodline Levels != LA.  You CANNOT "buy them off" one at a time, nor do you have sufficient XP to do so.  For a standard 20th-level CO build, you have exactly 190 k XP to work with, or 208,700 if you took item familiar at third level.  That gives 18,700 XP to play with.  This is insufficient to buy off a sequence of bloodline levels even if you could, and you can't.

characters are explicitly required to take a "class level of bloodline" in order to gain the abilities of said bloodline.  This sure as hell doesn't sound like LA that can be bought off.  Those rules simply do not apply.

Additionally, the Arcane Disciple feat does NOT grant "access to a domain", it grants access to the same list of spells that a given domain does.  This is NOT the same as having "access to a domain".

Access to a domain is always associated with having the granted power.  Gaining additional spells which just happen to be on the same ones that a particular domain grants access to ~= access to that domain.

I'm not even going to get started again on the bloodlines ; I said my piece earlier and agreed to disagree with what appears to be the CO standard...at least until JaronK is around (hopefully with his bloodline work), selah.  As for the domains, where is this explicitly stated that "access to a domain is tied to that domain's granted power?"  I'm half tempted to make a case, however fringe, for "having access" to both, given the available ACF's, whether I take them or not.  Regardless, however, see above.  There are alternatives to using bloodline progression listed.  Where I play, they are buy-offable ; from the XP figures you gave, that's less than 1k XP to buy it off in fact.  But given that it's not inherently needed, and the Solar grants all the CL the build could ever need, I'll let it rest.

Now, about the domains...lack of Spontaneous Divination means either waiting until epic (a mythal) or hiring/mindraping a ranger/assassin/bard/any-other-divination-we-want-caster to snag some of the nicer ones.  The level aspects of it are a non-issue with regenerative spell slots, but the ones that are straight up absent...not cool.  I suppose a case can be made for shapechanging into a Solar of a Destiny domain deity to get Choose Destiny, but that's shaky at best.
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Archmage Joda

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #81 on: July 09, 2009, 04:41:27 AM »

Additionally, the Arcane Disciple feat does NOT grant "access to a domain", it grants access to the same list of spells that a given domain does.  This is NOT the same as having "access to a domain".

Access to a domain is always associated with having the granted power.  Gaining additional spells which just happen to be on the same ones that a particular domain grants access to ~= access to that domain.

I can easily understand and accept that merely having access to domain spells doesn't equal access to that domain, my only query on that subject was whether getting both the granted power and the spells, albeit from different places, counted.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #82 on: July 09, 2009, 04:46:44 AM »
The real irony will be if I can find a way to tack the same tricks onto an Archivist base :P  The ultimate mage...a divine caster on crack...who knew?

EDIT : And actually...if meeting the prerequisites for an arcane PrC can allow me to add it's levels to a divine casting class (think Algernon, only using only one feat), I can drop the exact same bomb, minus a bloodline, and not even need to take Solar form with an Archivist.  Oh yeah, and in addition to Incantatrix Spellcraft trickery, access to DMM.  Assuming it works, checking Doc Rock's Algernon build now...

EDIT #2 : Gods...Archivist 2 (retrain 2nd level out for Incantatrix 3 at 20th)/Church Inquisitor 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/Primal Scholar 5/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper 4/Incantatrix 2 (3 after retraining)

What it can do : Everything the former could, only without resorting to Shapechange, and with access to Divine feats with those 55 spare feats.  Oh, and that includes DMM.  As if it couldn't auto-persist everything already.  Note also the Rogue will have a hard time sneaking by, and Shadowcraft Mages will be found out REAL quick.  And no telling him to impale himself either :P  Requires Alternate Source Spell/Southern Magician/Dragonblood pool, with the first being prefered, and also will use the Stronghold trick for full spontaneous access to any arcane or divine spell, given enough time to amass them in his prayerbook.  Did you remember to take Otherworldly?  I knew you did!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2009, 05:42:59 AM by KellKheraptis »
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Bauglir

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #83 on: July 09, 2009, 02:45:23 PM »
Oh yeah, if nobody mentioned it, Draconic doesn't grant Dragon type. Type remains unchanged, except for animals, who become magical beasts. At least, this was the case as of the printing of the Draconomicon. Am thinking Dragonwrought Kobold is necessary.
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Archmage Joda

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #84 on: July 10, 2009, 12:05:57 AM »
Also, I thought it was hashed out somewhere about arcane prestige classes not progressing divine casting classes or something along those lines?

Also, what other ways are there to get infinite (or NI) spell slots besides primal scholar trickery and Tainted Scholar/Sorcerer?
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #85 on: July 11, 2009, 12:44:13 PM »
Also, I thought it was hashed out somewhere about arcane prestige classes not progressing divine casting classes or something along those lines?

Also, what other ways are there to get infinite (or NI) spell slots besides primal scholar trickery and Tainted Scholar/Sorcerer?

If said distinction exists, I'd love to see it (and so would Doc Rock, as it would frag his Algernon build).  The first infinite/NI spell slot trick that comes to mind is Warlock 2/Binder 1 with Dark Speech to create an uberswarm hivemind, but that'd been errata'd/overwritten by Fiendish Codex I think...
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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #86 on: July 11, 2009, 04:10:34 PM »
A couple others I came across in my travels after making that post are astral projection item cloning + the spell siphon in complete scoundrel for recharging, and the festering anger + cancer mage combo while being an illumian with aeshkrau sigil (makes bonus spells/day based on strength).
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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #87 on: July 12, 2009, 05:40:21 PM »
Here is my own crack at what the previous build accomplished (namely, persisting, supernatural spell, and functionally NI spell slots):

Illumian Wizard 5/Singer of Concordance 2/Dweomerkeeper 6/Incantatrix 6/Cancer Mage 1

Notes and Disclaimers:
-Assumes Southern Magician is a valid qualification for must be able to cast divine spells.
-Gains entry feats for cancer mage via magical locations in CScoundrel and DCFS.
-Requires evil alignment or ignoring of alignment requisites
 
Fulfillment of goals:
-Gains Persisting and other goodies through Incantatrix
-Gains 2/day supernatural spell (was unsure of how many of each between Dweomerkeeper and Incatatrix to put in)
-By being Illumian with Aeshkrau sigil (bonus spells/day based on strength), and gaining of Festering Anger disease after Cancer Mage level (would bestow curse or its greater form work for this?), gains +2 str daily, and thus has functionally NI spells/day due to keying bonus spells off strength.

Questions/Comments/Concerns/Criticisms?
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #88 on: July 14, 2009, 12:14:28 PM »
I see the Ultimate Mage as being able to cast in an AMF.  Do we know of a way to snag Initiate of Mystra without explicitly being a cleric?  Like, is there a way to "cheat" into Cheaterhood? :P
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #89 on: July 14, 2009, 12:38:54 PM »
I see the Ultimate Mage as being able to cast in an AMF.  Do we know of a way to snag Initiate of Mystra without explicitly being a cleric?  Like, is there a way to "cheat" into Cheaterhood? :P

The writers of the feat were no fun.  It explicitly says "cleric level 3".

Of course, if we could pick it up as a bonus feat... of course, the only way I know how to do that would be rogue10.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 12:40:54 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #90 on: July 14, 2009, 01:10:59 PM »
I see the Ultimate Mage as being able to cast in an AMF.  Do we know of a way to snag Initiate of Mystra without explicitly being a cleric?  Like, is there a way to "cheat" into Cheaterhood? :P

The writers of the feat were no fun.  It explicitly says "cleric level 3".

Of course, if we could pick it up as a bonus feat... of course, the only way I know how to do that would be rogue10.

And being a solar doesn't give virtual cleric levels, just full cleric casting.  Is there any other way around an AMF (like...can MDJ nuke it out of existence?) short of epic spells?  Maybe a Spellblade with immunity to it?

Also, I can't find the embassy trick in my copy of SBG, got a reference for the trick?

Finally, the Hexer, however cheesy it may be, makes all spells available, and whatever it slouches on, Geomancer picks up the slack on.  So ideally, base class is IMO now moot.  It all boils down to who can kick the most ass when the kid gloves are off.  And IMO it's coming down to Archivist, Cleric, and Wizard.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2009, 01:25:44 PM »
Spellblades only work for targeted spells, IIRC.


Hmm... a planar bubble for a plane that bans abjuration would work.
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Suzerain

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #92 on: July 14, 2009, 01:31:30 PM »
Of course, if we could pick it up as a bonus feat... of course, the only way I know how to do that would be rogue10.
As a sidenote, where does it say that characters need not meet the prereqs for bonus feats? In the ranger and monk cases, it is explicitly included in the text that they need not. In the fighter case, it is explicitly stated that he must meet the prereqs. Where does it say what the 'default' is? I've always wondered.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #93 on: July 14, 2009, 01:53:51 PM »
Of course, if we could pick it up as a bonus feat... of course, the only way I know how to do that would be rogue10.
As a sidenote, where does it say that characters need not meet the prereqs for bonus feats? In the ranger and monk cases, it is explicitly included in the text that they need not. In the fighter case, it is explicitly stated that he must meet the prereqs. Where does it say what the 'default' is? I've always wondered.

I believe it's the monster manual.  "Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat.  If this is so, the creature can still use the feat."
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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #94 on: July 14, 2009, 02:57:09 PM »
that seems like a nice leap of faith...
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #95 on: July 14, 2009, 07:44:31 PM »
The_Mad_Linguist, you still haven't said the full trick behind getting spontaneous spellcasting via being a diplomat :P
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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #96 on: July 14, 2009, 07:49:02 PM »
The_Mad_Linguist, you still haven't said the full trick behind getting spontaneous spellcasting via being a diplomat :P

Embassies are considered to be part of their native country.  If you're a hathran, your powers only work in Rasheman.  If you're a Rashemanian diplomat, and declare your stronghold to be an embassy, as long as you're there you get full spontaneous spellcasting.  And given how completely utterly broken stronghold are, I see no reason why you'd ever leave it.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #97 on: July 14, 2009, 07:51:06 PM »
The_Mad_Linguist, you still haven't said the full trick behind getting spontaneous spellcasting via being a diplomat :P

Embassies are considered to be part of their native country.  If you're a hathran, your powers only work in Rasheman.  If you're a Rashemanian diplomat, and declare your stronghold to be an embassy, as long as you're there you get full spontaneous spellcasting.  And given how completely utterly broken stronghold are, I see no reason why you'd ever leave it.

Gotcha, and then either Planar Bubble or Acorn of Far Travel to take it with you.  Sexy :D
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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #98 on: July 14, 2009, 11:00:58 PM »
I really like the embassy thing, and would also appreciate a reference for my use. ;)

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Re: CO Challenge : The Tier 1 of Tier 1 Wizards..."The Ultimate Magus"
« Reply #99 on: July 14, 2009, 11:17:46 PM »
It's a combination of "The hathran must be within the boundaries of Rashemen to use this ability"

and, well, embassies being considered part of the abassador's country rather than where they're geographically located.
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