Author Topic: 4e Multiclassing  (Read 4087 times)

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Dielzen

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4e Multiclassing
« on: May 31, 2008, 09:31:15 AM »
I've read the book, I've read posts here and on the "other site" and I still don't quite understand.

I take 4 feats to get 3-4 powers from another class, and that's all I really get?  That doesn't really seem like multiclassing, seems more like level-dipping in 3.5

Unless I'm missing something (which I hope I am), it's nowhere near the utility that 2e characters had that were multi-classed, which was what I thought they were trying to lean towards.

AlienFromBeyond

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2008, 09:38:18 AM »
Well, first feat gets you some neat stuff and access to the rest. With just this one alone, you can take paragon paths of the class you multiclassed into, though technically not epic destinies (Warlock Archmage would be pretty sick). If you take the first feat and the 3 power swapping feats, you can then, instead of taking a paragon path, get extra powers (no swapping) of the class you multiclassed into. This is to replace the powers you would get from the paragon path, except you get nothing to make up for the abilities of the paths, some of which are quite awesome.

X-Codes

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2008, 10:37:47 AM »
I have to say, I'm somewhat disappointed in 4e multiclassing.  If all powers of a given level are supposed to be equal in their own right, then the feats that let you swap powers of equal level for those of another class are quite weak mechanically.  The only feats that seem worthwhile are the ones unique to each class as they give access to class-specific feats and paragon paths in addition to a useful power.

Will I ever use Paragon Multiclassing?  Well, maybe.  I'll be looking for better uses for Paragon Multiclassing when I write my Paladin guide.

PhoenixInferno

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2008, 10:48:18 AM »
For now, they're almost required because there aren't that many other great feats to take anyway.

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2008, 12:37:44 PM »
Hardly.  The other feats may give small bonuses, but at least they give bonuses.

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but Feats in D&D remind me a lot of Talents from WoW.  They have seemingly minor effect on their own, but at the same time they really do define your character.

brislove

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2008, 06:52:05 PM »
It seemed odd to me as-well, until I made one.

There are a couple things to note.

The most important is that you only get 4 dailies and 4 encounter powers. So the feats make you 25% multi-class

Paragon Multi-classing. Instead of taking a paragon class, you can just take spells from your "multi-class". You lose a couple class features, but you aren't pigeon-holed into 3 specific abilities, and you swap out an at-will from your primary class for an at-will from your secondary class. (this includes another daily, at-will, utility and encounter, making ~50% of your attack powers multi-classed)

Also you can swap the powers that you got from the feat for free at every level, in addition to any retraining, so you can always have a higher level power from either class

If you take a paragon class from your "multi-class" you gain it's 3 powers, since those powers are in-line with your secondary class (in theory) they also give you 1 encounter, 1 utility and 1 daily, making you a pretty even split.

Then if you take eternal Seeker Epic destiny, you can do some power swapping, so by the time things are done the only thing really denoting what your primary class was are it's class features. You only gain class features once, multi-classing gets you powers and paragon options.

Llochlyn

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2008, 07:56:25 PM »
I asked somewhere else, but haven't really got the answer I was looking for.

Here is a bit of text from paragon multiclass rules :

Quote
"you can choose to continue to gain powers from that class rather than take a paragon path. If you choose this option, you gain several benefits yadayadablah"
But, in Pact Initiate, the warlock multiclass feat, there's this :
Quote
"you can pursue the warlock paragon path based on that pact."

... wich contradict each other. Feats are made to break the rule though, so I understand from this you're allowed to pick stuff from a Warlock Paragon Path when you're not a warlock.

But, what stuff, exactly ? Powers, Paragon path features, power swaps from the paragon list ?

brislove

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2008, 08:09:30 PM »
... wich contradict each other. Feats are made to break the rule though, so I understand from this you're allowed to pick stuff from a Warlock Paragon Path when you're not a warlock.

"you can pursue the warlock paragon path based on that pact."

But, what stuff, exactly ? Powers, Paragon path features, power swaps from the paragon list ?

You can take the paragon path. The whole thing, all of it. OR you can take powers from your secondary class, instead of taking a paragon path.

AlienFromBeyond

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #8 on: June 02, 2008, 08:24:02 PM »
Quote
"you can choose to continue to gain powers from that class rather than take a paragon path. If you choose this option, you gain several benefits yadayadablah"
But, in Pact Initiate, the warlock multiclass feat, there's this :
Quote
"you can pursue the warlock paragon path based on that pact."

... wich contradict each other.
...no they don't. The Warlock paragon paths all have prerequisites of one of the three Warlock pacts. All it is saying is you can take the paragon path that has the pact you choose as a prerequisite despite the fact that you don't actually have that pact, since the feat doesn't give you any of them.

Llochlyn

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #9 on: June 02, 2008, 08:44:48 PM »
Ahem, but you're not supposed to be able to take a paragon path at all when going 'full multiclass'... Ok I was confused.

Wait, let me try and get this straight. Options :

a) Take all the feats, and the ability to do the power swap. No paragon path.

b) Take all/some of the feats and a paragon path for your primary class.

c) Take all/some of the feats and a paragon path for your secondary class, wich I hadn't seen you could until now.

Ok, all clear, thanks :p
« Last Edit: June 02, 2008, 08:53:56 PM by Llochlyn »

Eepop

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2008, 09:20:39 PM »
Here's an example of what a Gish Character might have available to them, if they went all out with 4E multiclassing:

For times sake, this is at level 20, the end of your paragon path.

Fighter with multiclass feats and paragon multiclassing as wizard.

Powers: (2 At Will, 5 Encounter, 4 Daily, 5 Utility)
At Will
1 from Fighter List
1 from Wizard List
Encounter
2 from Fighter list
1 from Wizard list from highest level of encounter powers available
1 from Wizard list from 7th level or lower
1 from Wizard list of first level at will powers
Daily
2 from Fighter List
1 from Wizard list from highest level of daily powers available
1 from Wizard list from 19th level or lower
Utility
3 From Fighter List
1 from Wizard list from highest level of utility powers available
1 from Wizard list from 10th level or lower


So as you can see the split of powers is pretty darn even.  The Fighter side is 1 utility ability ahead, and a few of the wizard powers have a cap on how high they can be.  So the character is more fighter than it is wizard, but its probably about a 60/40 split at most.

If someone wants to argue that this isn't "multi" enough, you can go ahead and try.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for the second usual gripe about 4e multiclassing: the opportunity cost.  A 20th level character has 12 free feats. A full multiclassed character has 4 multiclassing feats, and 8 free feats.  So the versatility gained in multiclassing needs to provide equal or more benefit to a character's 1/3 worst feats at level 20.  Thats going to be a judgment call in each situation, but lets go with our fighter/wizard example and list some wizardy powers that the fighter would have that a non-multiclassed fighter would not have access to.

At will from the Wizard List: Let's go with the classic, Magic Missile.  Range 20, can be used when given a basic ranged attack, vs reflex.

Encounter power from wizard list: Crushing Titan's Fist, range 20, area burst 2, vs reflex, immobilize targets, squares take 4 squares worth of movement to move through.
Encounter power from wizard list (7th level or lower): Spectral Ram, range 10, vs fortitude, push target 3 squares and knock them prone.
Encounter power from Wizard at will list: Scorching Burst, Range 10, area burst 1, vs reflex.

Daily power from wizard list:Acid wave, close blast 5, vs reflex, ongoing damage
Daily power from wizard list(19th level or lower): Evard's Black Tentacles

Utility power from wizard list: Fly, fly speed of 8, sustain minor (woohoo something to use your minor actions on)
Utility power from wizard list(10th or lower): Arcane gate, create portal that makes two squares within range 20 effectively adjacent to each other, minor action cast, minor action sustain


Is the versatility gained better than just having those 4 feats to use for other stuff? Only time will tell, but its not any where near the "equal level powers are equally useful, so a power swap of the same level doesn't get you anything".  I can tell you that a non-multiclassed fighter sure as hell won't be making portals, flying, and immobilizing an area burst 2 from 20 squares away.  Gaining the ability to do something that there is no conceivable way you could do otherwise is an increase in power, how much of an increase is still to be determined.  But that can only be found in play, not through theorizing on a message board.

All that said, I do think you'd do best to "multiclass" by taking 1-4 of the feats as desired, and taking a paragon path from the other class as opposed to paragon multiclassing.  The requirement to have all 4 feats and losing your paragon path doesn't seem to justify the gain from paragon multiclassing.  A fighter/bloodmage looks like it could do some cool stuff, although thematically its a bit different from the standard gish.  Even if you have to use paragon multiclassing to get the concept you want, it shouldn't be that much worse.

Eepop

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2008, 09:29:54 PM »
As for the specific options here they are, in order from least multiclassed to most potent multiclassed (imho of course):

1) One class, no multiclassing.
2) One class, 1-4 feats.
3) One class, 1 feat, 1 paragon path from feat's class.
4) One class, 4 feats, paragon multiclassing (see previous post)
5) One class, 4 feats, 1 paragon path from feat's class.

Additional multiclass-ish options are:
1) The skill training and jack of all trades feats that let you "multiclass" your skill abilities.
2) Half elves get an encounter ability that comes from any other classes at will list (can be a 3rd class even).
3) Eternal seeker epic destiny, get multiclassing ish stuff at 21st and 26th levels.  And their level 30 ability is chosen from other epic destinies' level 24 options.
4) Armor proficiency and weapon proficiency feats.
5) Class specific feats from the class which you have the initiate feat for.

tarbrush

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #12 on: June 03, 2008, 01:19:46 AM »
Thankyou for providing some worked examples, I'm having big Wall of Text issues with workign out what each class is about and how exactly multiclassing should work.

My problems with multiclassing.

a)  It's a hassle.  Swapping in and out up to 3 powers every time you level seems to really contradict 4e's philosophy of being straightforward to manage.
b)  No way to get class features.  I can sort of understand this.  Sort of.  But I still think it's the wrong decision.  If you're prepared to burn 4 feats and forsake your paragon path (or take a cross class PP) there ought to be some way of getting at least one of the class features of the other class (my 'not multi enough' argument :P)
c) Losing the feats.  This ties into my other big gripe with 4e in that most feats look weak insipid and uninspired.  No description, no flair and pretty routinely no power.  I accept that some feats are both flavourful and useful.  But many are toughness/combat casting all over again.  I'm not saying that every feat needs to be Blood Spiked Charger, but really, most of the feats are rubbish. 

I suppose what I'm most dissappointed about is that the fundamental 4e setup seems like it could support a truly intuitive, user friendly and flavourful set of multiclass rules without compromising balance or simplicity.  And while the current rules are very definitely balanced, they just lack horribly in ease of use and flair.  They could have been A+ and they're scraping a B-.  That upsets me.

Runestar

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2008, 04:20:22 AM »
You can freely swap them in at every lv (and they don't even count towards your retraining limit).

For example, if my fighter with wizard training took acolyte power at 8th lv, I can normally only swap in a 6th lv wizard utility power. At 10th lv, I learn a new 10th lv utility power, and can swap it out for a 10th lv wizard utility. And repeat this at lv16 and 22. Same for the other feats, so you could keep leapfrogging your way up the power ladder.

Your lv30 fighter could in theory cast meteor swarm (and only meteor swarm), yet be incapable of using the simplest of cantrips or any other spells... :P
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Squash Monster

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2008, 06:58:42 AM »
The first multiclass feat is one of the most powerful Heroic tier feats.  The rest... well they are only really worth it if you have something specific in mind.

How exactly are we doing notation with the new system?  We can't really write it Wizard 5 / Fighter 1 / Whatever 8 anymore.

My recommendation would be to keep the slashes, with the first class listed being the starting class.  We can also note paths with the same notation.  IE:
No multiclassing: Class / Paragon Path / Epic Destiny
Full multiclassing: Class / Second Class / Epic Destiny
Partial multiclassing: Class / Second Class / Paragon Path / Epic Destiny
This leaves only one possible ambiguity, which is how much you multiclassed if you did partial multiclassing.

DaveTheMagicWeasel

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2008, 08:13:43 AM »
Personally, I think Base Class (Multiclass) / Paragon / Epic is the way, with the specific option chosen for the base class specified, e.g:

Inspiring Warlord (Paladin) / Champion of Order / Demigod is a Warlord with the Inspiring Presence option, the Soldier of Faith feat, and then CoO path, etc

Whereas Inspiring Warlord (Paladin) / Paladin / Demigod is the same, but he's taken all four feats and used Paragon Multi-classing for Paladin.  That could then be shortened to just Inspiring Warlord / Paladin / Demigod if it catches on, with the (Paladin) multiclass implicit in the fact of taking Paladin at Paragon.

Oh, and I also think "Cross-classing" would be a better name than Multi-classing.  Since you don't have multiple classes anymore, you just crossover and yoink some of their stuff.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2008, 12:04:27 PM by DaveTheMagicWeasel »

Shadeseraph

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Re: 4e Multiclassing
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2008, 08:40:21 PM »
I haven't play a 4E campaign yet, so I can't say if paragon multiclassing and paragon path multiclassing are even on the power side, so I won't make an argument there.

My personal fear is that the increased requirements on ability scores and on equipment can be the real bane of a multiclased character. The dependence on 3 ability scores for all classes and the distributed ability score preference between classes creates a situation where almost all multiclassing characters will need at least 4 attributes.

Looking at some tables, two pieces of equipment of a given level roughly equate to a single weapon of two levels higher. Bonus-wise, that means that you lose about a single point of attack with powers from both sources.
Also, assuming a character trying to even his main ability scores, we could put some examples:
10+6(9)+0+2+4=22
10+4(5)+2+2+4=22
10+4(5)+2+2+4=22
10+3(3)+0+2+0=15
10+0+0+2+0=12
8+0+0+2+0=10
(base + point + race + lvls11-21 + lvls 4-8-14-18-24-28)
alternatively, 24/24/18 would be another attribute distribution I think would be easily found on multiclassed characters.
Compared to the max ability score available to a character:
10+8(16)+2+2+6=28
that's another -2/-3 to hit. Many of the reasons because multiclassing was effective in 3.5 was because of getting abilities for the secnod class which didn't depend on the class main ability. Ray spells / Non ST spells on multiclassed wizards, polymorph, SA independent from weapon used, and so on. Now, there is almost no power that doesn't depend on one of the class main abilities, so that -3 (item + scores) to hit can hurt.

Well, I will try to do a comparative between the pure classed character expected to-hit ratio and the dual-classed character expected to-hit ratio.

BTW, I am aware that some builds can overcome these restrictions, I am trying to guess the general negative impact on multiclassed characters. I am in no way comparing it to 3.5, even if I have used it why ability scores are pretty important to multiclassed characters.
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