An optimized sorcerer with 19/20 progression... in DragonLance.

[E-mail]

Hi!

I usually play either wizard or cleric, but recently Ive been wanting to test my mettle against the archetypical spontaneous caster class; the sorceror. Furthermore I want to take advantage of a neat class found in the Age of Mortals compendium for the dragonlance setting, which offer me some unique advantages that will make for an interesting character.

As the decend into War Mage (AoM PrC) will define my characters role in the party, I will take a minute to describe the cost and benefit of the 5-level progression;

Reqs:
- Feats: Combat Casting, Weapon Focus (any) and Enshew Materials
- Others: Insignificant.

Gains:
- I can add my Cha mod to up to 3 allies AC as an untyped bonus.
- +3 damage/dice on all damage dealing spells. This aparently includes ability damage.
- +2 bonus metamagic feats chosen from a limited list.
- Ignore 10% spell faliure. Enough to wear a +1 padded armor of heavy fortification.
- full casting progression.

Here goes:

ACFs:
 
Metamagic Specialist (PHB2)

Stats (28 pts point buy):

Str: 6
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 6
Cha: 18(+1 at lvl 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 and 24)

Build:

-1: Sorcerer 1 Feat (Improved Initiative), racial bonus feat (Eschew Materials)
-2: Sorcerer 2
-3: Sorceror 3 Feat (Weapon Focus: Ray Spells)
-4: Sorceror 4
-5: Human Paragon 1 Adaptive Learning (Diplomancy), bonus feat (Martial Weapon Proficiency: Shortbow), bonus feat (Light Armor Proficiency)
-6: Human Paragon 2 Feat (Combat Casting), bonus feat (Point Blank Shot)
-7: Human Paragon 3 Ability Boost (+2 charisma)
-8: War Mage 1
-9: War Mage 2 Feat (Precise Shot), bonus feat (Empower Spell)
-10: War Mage 3
-11: War Mage 4 Bonus feat (Maximize Spell)
-12: War Mage 5 Feat (Split Ray)
-13: Abjurant Champion 1
-14: Abjurant Champion 2
-15: Abjurant Champion 3 Feat (Arcane Thesis: Enervation)
-16: Abjurant Champion 4
-17: Abjurant Champion 5
-18: Fatespinner 1 Feat (Quicken Spell)
-19: Fatespinner 2
-20: Fatespinner 3
-21: Fatespinner 4 Feat (Epic Spellcasting)
-22: Fatespinner 5
-23: Argent Savant 1
-24: Argent Savant 2 Feat (Multispell)

Chosen Spells:

0th:
Acid Splash
Detect Magic
Dancing Lights
Light
Ray of Frost
Ghost Sound
Mage hand
Mending
Prestidigitation

1st:
Ray of Enfeeblement
Shield
Silent Image
Grease
Summon Monster I

2nd:
Glitterdust
Ray of Stupidity
Invisibility
Scorching Ray
Shatter

3rd:
Dispel Magic
Ray of Exhaustion
Greater Mage Armor
Fly (Swich for Shivering Touch when Elemental Body can be taken)

4th:
Celerity
Otilukes Resilent Sphere
Enervation
Assay Spell Resistance (Spell Compendium)

5th:
Teleport
Telekinesis
Wall of Force
Cloudkill

6th:
Dispel Magic, Greater
Freezing Fog (Spell Compendium)
Disentegrate

7th:
Plane Shift
Elemental Body (Spell Compendium)
Bigbys Grasping Hand

8th:
Polymorph any Object
Ottos Irresistable Dance
Prismatic Bow (Complete Arcane)

9th:
Shapechange
Time Stop
Gate

So, how do I optimize this sorcerer further? And is there some other wat of getting what Human Paragon gets me that I can take and keep my CL?

[rubberduck]

i would suggest beeing a kobold and having the white dragonspawn template la+1
which will give you a sorc level for free! (among other good things)
then with the rite of the passage you gain another sorc level!
la buyoff will give you 21/20 sorc levels
without la buyoff youre just a fullcaster^^

also you could get +3 to all metal stat with a dragonwrought kobold

[The_Mad_Linguist]

What exactly is it you want from human paragon?

Being a dragonwrought kobold nets you
: As previously mentioned, no aging penalties, so age all the way up to venerable for +3 mentals
: The dragon type, so you can qualify for singer of concordance at level 2 - it has class features, which is more than you can say of levels 2+ of sorcerer
: Weapon Proficiency for light pick and heavy pick (does the War Mage require some sort of martial prof?)
: The opportunity for the greater draconic rite - essentially a level of sorcerer progression in exchange for one feat.



If you can take flaws, I recommend you do.  Two more feats is a good deal...

Pick up Wings of Cover as one of your spells.

Again, the white dragonspawn template is so good for sorcerers it's crazy.  Get it if at all possible.

[telehax]

For what seems to have a blasting prestige class you don't seem to have a lot of blasting.

Here's some good spells you missed:

Wings of Flurry (RoD) Sor4
-1d6/CL damage
 -No damage cap
 -Force Damage
 -Reflex save or daze

Maw of Chaos (SpC) Sor/Wiz 9
-1d6/CL damage per round
 -No damage cap
 -Reflex save or daze each round

Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) Sor/Wiz 7
-Lets you cast standard action spells as quickened and full round spells as standard
I can't really explain much more than that without violating copyright.

Arcane Fusion and Arcane Fusion, Greater (C.Mage) Sor/Wiz 5/8
-Casts a 1+4th level spell/7+4th level spell at the same time, good for nova-ing

[Cam_Banks]

Do you have the War Mage errata from Towers of High Sorcery? Also, be aware that kobolds in Dragonlance are not descended from dragons, but the bakali (lizard men). While the bakali were minions and soldiers for armies in the distant past, they are not genetically related in any way.

Cheers,
Cam

[E-mail]

[The_Mad_Linguist]

So, kobolds are considered monstrous?

Also, be aware that kobolds in Dragonlance are not descended from dragons, but the bakali (lizard men).

Well, duh.  Everyone knows that dragons are degenerated kobolds.

[E-mail]

Anything that makes peasants reach for their torches and pitchforks (or run away in terror) when it walks into the local tavern is monsterous. And kobolds, goblins and dragonspawn usually fall into that category.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I suppose wearing a hat of disguise is out of the question

Anyway, lesser aasimar are humans with an even slighter celestial bloodline - essentially, as normal aasimar

[Cam_Banks]

Kobolds are a player race in Dragonlance. We provided a racial writeup in Dragons of Krynn, which isn't exactly the same as the one in the WotC books.

Towers of High Sorcery revises the War Mage because its class features were too strong. Among other things, the war mage's battle magic can be used for a number of times a day equal to 3 + Con modifier. Metamagic feats, such as Empower Spell, do not affect battle magic as it isn't a variable effect.

As for tylors and true dragons, that seems like it'd work. I would apply the half-dragon template to the tylor to represent it.

Cheers,
Cam

[ErhnamDJ]

Just looking, I see you don't get third level spells until level 7. That's the same as the bard. Just think about that.

You're actually going to use Shivering Touch? And in a world with the word 'dragon' in the name. But you don't even take Limited Wish?

What's up with taking Shield and Summon Monster 1? Will you ever actually cast one of those spells? Does the party have a trapfinder?

Also, you might want to take a look at a little spell called 'Phantom Steed.' It pretty owns. I doubt you'll ever find anything Otto's works on. Just in core you could have Mind Blank, Greater Shadow Evocation, Moment of Prescience, or Prismatic Wall instead. Outside of core, there are about fifty other spells you should take into consideration, most of them giving you tons of immunities for 50 hours a day.

And when you finally get your fourth level spell (when the wizard can teleport), you take... Resilient Sphere? Not Polymorph, not Tentacles, not Scrying, or Dimension Door. But Resilient Sphere. Really?

What do you need Assay Spell Resistance for? The only spells you'll be trying to hit them with are Ray of Enfeeblement/Stupidity/Exhaustion. Are you really going to use a 4th level spell to try and force through some Scorching Rays? And wow are you screwed if they bother to cast Ray Immunity. Especially if they have some way to get around Glitterdust.

You don't really do much when you get fifth level spells either. Your ability to affect an enemy (gotta hope it's not more than one) is pretty limited until you get 6th level spells (and why do you need both versions of Dispel? Retrain the third level one).

[E-mail]

Just looking, I see you don't get third level spells until level 7. That's the same as the bard. Just think about that.

Noted. The more I think about it, the clearer it becomes that I shouldnt trade away caster levels before the epic levels. I think that I will try to get around the need for the Human Paragon class by taking the Otherworldly feat, as it sounds like a solid choice. What book is it in?

You're actually going to use Shivering Touch? And in a world with the word 'dragon' in the name. But you don't even take Limited Wish?

The DM has no problem with the spell, and seeing as I even get +3 damage/dice it seemed like a reliable way of punishing the BBEGs. And about Limited Wish, spells that cos XP makes me cringe, and especially on a spontaneous caster. What would i need that for? When would I ever cast it?

What's up with taking Shield and Summon Monster 1? Will you ever actually cast one of those spells? Does the party have a trapfinder?

Shield: I take 5 levels of Abjurant Champion. Why wouldnt I take Shield and use it all the time?

SM1: I will be acting as the party trapfinder, with my endless army of celestial monkeys and my ability to speak celestial. What can I say... it works. What else would you have me do?

Also, you might want to take a look at a little spell called 'Phantom Steed.' It pretty owns. I doubt you'll ever find anything Otto's works on. Just in core you could have Mind Blank, Greater Shadow Evocation, Moment of Prescience, or Prismatic Wall instead. Outside of core, there are about fifty other spells you should take into consideration, most of them giving you tons of immunities for 50 hours a day.

My spell list is a work in progress at the moment, I will take your suggestions into consideration once I get the build sorted out.

And when you finally get your fourth level spell (when the wizard can teleport), you take... Resilient Sphere? Not Polymorph, not Tentacles, not Scrying, or Dimension Door. But Resilient Sphere. Really?

No. When I finally get fourth level spells, I will be getting Enervation and use it to kick ass. Resilient sphere is for much later in the game, and as mentioned above I will likely redo my spell list later.

What do you need Assay Spell Resistance for? The only spells you'll be trying to hit them with are Ray of Enfeeblement/Stupidity/Exhaustion. Are you really going to use a 4th level spell to try and force through some Scorching Rays? And wow are you screwed if they bother to cast Ray Immunity. Especially if they have some way to get around Glitterdust.

My offensive capabilities depend heavily on Disentegrate and Enervation, and not being able to affect critters with SR would be a bad thing. I may get True Casting instead of Assay Resistance now that I think about it, Assay Resistance seems like one of those spells that are better for wizards anyway. Furthermore I feel that I need to inform you that I am not a total idiot.. I will absolutely not rely on empowered Scorching Rays. Enervation and empowered Enervation is a whole other story.

And about Ray Immunity... I dont think my DM is aware of its existance.

You don't really do much when you get fifth level spells either. Your ability to affect an enemy (gotta hope it's not more than one) is pretty limited until you get 6th level spells (and why do you need both versions of Dispel? Retrain the third level one).

Great idea about Dispel Magic, I will totally retrain the lesser variant when I get the greater. Also, feel free to suggest any spells that you think that I will be better off with than what I have.

Cam:

Do you mean that I cant use Battle Magic on spells that I empower? Why wouldnt that be a viable effect? I will try to get my hands on ToHS before I enter play with this character so I can play the class as it is intended to be played, but until I get the book I will proceed with the AoM version. Has the prereqs changed?

New build:

-1: Sorcerer 1 Feat (Otherworldly), racial bonus feat (Eschew Materials)
-2: Sorcerer 2
-3: Sorceror 3 Feat (Weapon Focus: Ray Spells)
-4: Sorceror 4
-5: Sorceror 5
-6: Sorceror 6 Feat (Combat Casting)
-7: War Mage 1
-8: War Mage 2 Bonus feat (Empower Spell)
-9: War Mage 3 Feat (Improved Initiative)
-10: War Mage 4 Bonus feat (Maximize Spell)
-11: War Mage 5
-12: Abjurant Champion 1 Feat (Split Ray)
-13: Abjurant Champion 2
-14: Abjurant Champion 3
-15: Abjurant Champion 4 Feat (Arcane Thesis: Enervation)
-16: Abjurant Champion 5
-17: Fatespinner 1
-18: Fatespinner 2 Feat (Quicken Spell)
-19: Fatespinner 3
-20: Fatespinner 4
-21: Fatespinner 5 Feat (Epic Spellcasting)
-22: Human Paragon 1
-23: Human Paragon 2 Bonus Feat (Improved Spell Capacity)
-24: Human Paragon 3 Feat (Multispell), Ability Boost (+2 charisma)

So, how about this? Does anyone have an idea as to how I get most out of the first 6 levels? Sorcerer levels are so useless, and especially without a familiar I feel like Im better off with just about any dip that grant CLs.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Being an outsider nets you some nice forms for alter self.  Alter self is pretty much the best second spell you can choose, so... yeah.  Take it as soon as you can, and feel less useless from levels 3-6. 

Mephit forms are great for utility purposes (and there are about a zillion of 'em, so pick whatever one gets fast healing in your circumstance).

Turing into a dwarf ancestor will really help with your defenses once you pass level five (+18 natural armor and DR5/adamantine).


If you end up neutral, take a one-level dip of mindbender (complete arcane) at level six.  Telepathy and a good fort save effectively for free. 

[BowenSilverclaw]

If you end up neutral, take a one-level dip of mindbender (complete arcane) at level six.  Telepathy and a good fort save effectively for free. 

And if you do, don't forget to pick up the Mindsight feat (Lords of Madness)

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Well, initially I wasn't going to suggest that, but then I realized that he had room for a couple of flaws. 

Personally, I'd suggest city slicker (dragon 324), which gives you a significant penalty to handle animal, knowledge(nature), and survival checks, or metal intolerance, which gives you DR -1 against metal weapons (flavored as tying into your outsider heritage, perhaps), but you can decide on which ones you feel are less crippling.

[ErhnamDJ]

And about Limited Wish, spells that cos XP makes me cringe, and especially on a spontaneous caster. What would i need that for? When would I ever cast it?

Whenever you need a spell you don't know. Heal, Raise Dead, Revivify, Antimagic Field, True Seeing, etc.

Shield: I take 5 levels of Abjurant Champion. Why wouldnt I take Shield and use it all the time?

Because using the action to cast it almost always results in a wasted action. It's hardly ever worth wasting your turn casting it when you could toss a Grease or Glitterdust instead. Alter Self also does the same thing, but can give you flight, a swim speed, more AC, and other stuff.

No. When I finally get fourth level spells, I will be getting Enervation and use it to kick ass. Resilient sphere is for much later in the game, and as mentioned above I will likely redo my spell list later.

I don't think you'll get quite what you think from Enervation. Just look at what the spell does: -2.5 attack and saves, and -12.5 hp. That's it. That's all you'll get from Enervation most of the time. Wouldn't you rather have something more exciting? Maybe your friend is now a hydra? Or there's a squirming mass of tentacles everywhere, that no number of foes can get through?

My offensive capabilities depend heavily on Disentegrate and Enervation, and not being able to affect critters with SR would be a bad thing. I may get True Casting instead of Assay Resistance now that I think about it, Assay Resistance seems like one of those spells that are better for wizards anyway. Furthermore I feel that I need to inform you that I am not a total idiot.. I will absolutely not rely on empowered Scorching Rays. Enervation and empowered Enervation is a whole other story.

You don't get Disintegrate until level twelve. Enervation doesn't do much (hardly anything, actually). At this level Grease and Glitterdust are still your powerhouses.

And about Ray Immunity... I dont think my DM is aware of its existance.

Well, Ray Deflection is only one page away from your Ray of Stupidity spell. You can bet your ass he'll see it one of these days. Then it's back to... Grease and Glitterdust.

[Solo]

Ab Champ lets you use shield as a swift action.

I don't see why he's going human paragon though.

[ErhnamDJ]

Ab Champ lets you use shield as a swift action.

Yeah, but at what level? He's planning on taking Quicken right around then. Is Shield ever even worth your swift action?

[Akalsaris]

Just a note, but white dragonspawn was also updated in a later book, I think maybe Dragons of Krynn.  If you're a free-willed one as opposed to the drooling slave of a white dragon, I think the LA is +3 or so.  Which is probably a good thing, given how stupidly powerful that template was originally.

On a sidenote, I don't think I've ever seen a kobold in the dragonlance books.  It's weird, considering how prolific they are on most other worlds. 

Cam Banks mentioned the most important part of the errata.  The other thing changed was that war mages got Intimidate as a class skill.  Yippee.

[E-mail]

If Grease and Glitterdust are still a sorcerers main offensive spells up until around when I get 4th and 5th level spells, would Highen Spell be a good idea for a metamagic feat? Also, I am aware that Polymorph is usually *the* 4th level spell for any arcane caster, but it has been houseruled to death in my meta.