Author Topic: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3, #1 of 2.  (Read 54040 times)

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Samb

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2009, 06:35:11 PM »
Tier 3 is considered the "best" tier.  Just read JaronK's original thread.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2009, 07:09:52 PM »
I do like me some tier 2, though. I just loves me some WWoMD (Walking Weapons of Mass Destruction).

Which is why I'm okay with the psychic warrior; my op-fu is good enough to make them tier 2 if I want to.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2009, 07:16:17 PM »
Wildshape variant ranger:

The wildshape ranger trades his combat style feats for fast movement (as a barbarian) and wildshape (as a druid, small and medium animals only). This is generally considered a step up from the normal ranger.


Cons: The wildshape ranger is pretty much a liability before level 5, assuming str and dex were dumped. He's limited to small and medium animals when wildshaping, limiting combat option when compared to the druid. Also since you aren't going to get any more wildshape forms after level 5, it severely limits the incentive to keep taking ranger levels. The wildshape ranger still has the sucky animal companion.


Pros: The wildshape ranger is able to dump his str and dex scores, getting rid of the MAD that rangers normally have. Wildshaping creates much more flexibility in combat: pouncing as a leopard, tripping as a riding dog, grappling as a black bear, constrictor snake, or crocodile, weapons and armor as a baboon, and more. He still gets the normal ranger goodies like 2 bonus feats, spellcasting, 6 skill points/level, and evasion. The wildshape ranger can qualify for PrCs like Master of Many Forms and Warshaper.

Generic_PC

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2009, 07:21:16 PM »
@Lycanthromancer: You'll notice that it takes little to optimize Beguilers or Dread Necromancers up to Tier 2, especially if you have a slightly more liberal DM.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2009, 07:27:27 PM »
While not posting any pros and cons here, I'd like to point out something.

Being a tier 3 is NOTHING to be ashamed of. 

Basically, an optimized open splatbook tier 3 can compare favorably against a core only optimized tier 1.  

Certainly a necropolitan human dread necromancer2/Rainbow Servant 10/Mage of the Arcane Order 7/Sand Shaper 1 is greater than or equal to a wizard/archmage in terms of raw magical power, since he has 96% of all core spells in his repertoire, and more slots for them.  


But, yeah, tier 3 is the one you want to balance classes against.  You can do neat things without being paralyzed by indecision.
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Samb

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2009, 07:51:19 PM »
@Lycanthromancer: You'll notice that it takes little to optimize Beguilers or Dread Necromancers up to Tier 2, especially if you have a slightly more liberal DM.
Are you implying that psywar is harder to optimize?  With a leinant GM anything is possible.


Anyway Lycan I was thinking about psywar's problem with higher level powers and maybe psychic chiurgery can deal with it?  SRD specifically states that they can "manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level."  So they might not be able to pick the power, but they can have it "installed".  You will need a telepath or cognition thief that can manifest chierguery and the powers you want for this to work but the possibilities are amazing.

Needless to say, this can apply to any manifesting class.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 07:52:52 PM by Samb »

Generic_PC

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2009, 08:09:26 PM »
No, I wasn't saying that at all. But with DMs which allow some tricks, most of tier 3 can be optimized to tier 2. It's just like how Barbarians can become chargers and, with access to a couple books, be doing enough damage to match the ToB classes.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2009, 09:16:18 PM »
Anyway Lycan I was thinking about psywar's problem with higher level powers and maybe psychic chiurgery can deal with it?  SRD specifically states that they can "manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level."  So they might not be able to pick the power, but they can have it "installed".  You will need a telepath or cognition thief that can manifest chierguery and the powers you want for this to work but the possibilities are amazing.

Needless to say, this can apply to any manifesting class.

SRD20.org says: "If desired, you can use this power to directly transfer knowledge of a power you know to another psionic character. You can give a character knowledge of a power of any level that she can manifest, even if the power is not normally on the character’s power list. Knowledge of powers gained through psychic chirurgery does not count toward the maximum number of powers a character can know per level."

Good idea, but it doesn't work.

However, a psychic warrior can go with the mantled psywar ACF, and then he can use trigger-items of higher level powers (see: sticks and stones).

Also: UPD. (You can get massive bonuses to any skill you want with the right feats, and you can UPD powers from other classes easily enough.

But still, you can get metamorphosis on your power list, and that's considerably more powerful than some level 7 powers, so...)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 09:22:21 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

dark_samuari

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2009, 09:25:45 PM »
However, a psychic warrior can go with the mantled psywar ACF, and then he can use trigger-items of higher level powers (see: sticks and stones).

And that ACF can become really powerful you allow the modification of a mantle as in accordance with the Ardent ACF.

Samb

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2009, 09:38:13 PM »

SRD20.orgmetamorphosis on your power list, and that's considerably more powerful than some level 7 powers, so...)

SRD states that a psywar can "manifest any power that has a power point cost equal to or lower than his manifester level."  So at level 17 he could use level 9 powers.  I don't see the conflict.  Either way, temp accel could be used since it is only a 6th level power.  A psywar with fission=win.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2009, 09:42:37 PM »
I c wat u did thar.

Does that mean a 13th level psychic warrior can take Expanded Knowledge for 6th level powers, despite not getting them normally until much later?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 09:45:35 PM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Samb

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2009, 09:59:36 PM »
At level 20 you can only pick level 5 powers with EK and at psywar13 you can only pick 4th level powers.  In fact you cannot even take 6th powers not on psywar list when you go epic since there are no 7th level powers to speak of.  You might be able to use epic EK to get it, but before that I think psychic chiuergy might be the only way.

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2009, 10:02:25 PM »
At level 20 you can only pick level 5 powers with EK and at psywar13 you can only pick 4th level powers.  In fact you cannot even take 6th powers not on psywar list when you go epic since there are no 7th level powers to speak of.  You might be able to use epic EK to get it, but before that I think psychic chiuergy might be the only way.

Why not? It uses the same wording as what I quoted.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Samb

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2009, 11:50:17 PM »


Why not? It uses the same wording as what I quoted.

Quote
Benefit
Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can
I can see where you are coming from the problem is what does "can manifest mean"?  Is it "can potentially manifest" or "can manifest at this time"?

If it was the former then you could take a 6th level power at 14 and manifest it.  If it is the latter then you can't pick it at all unless you have a level 7 power in your power list already.  If it is the former then psywar just got a huge bump in quality powers and are now only limited by 9th powers.

JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2009, 12:21:36 AM »
Tier 3 is considered the "best" tier.  Just read JaronK's original thread.

Not exactly, Tier 3 is the one I think is best... because it fits my playstyle and is the power level I like best.  That doesn't make it best for everyone.  I fully understand people who prefer other tiers.  Heck, I'm doing an all Tier 6 game right now, and it's a heck of a lot of fun (mostly commoners).  And we're just starting up a game where most folks are heavily optimized Tier 1-3, but intentionally playing stupid (we're kick in the door righteous paladins, basically... but using Cleric/PrC Paladins). 

JaronK

Endarire

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2009, 01:51:09 AM »
The best tier is what works for your group.  In a cooperative game where teammates care about one another, the tier 1 casters who play their mental stats should realize making the job easier for the lower tier martial characters tends to win fights sooner.
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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2009, 02:08:20 AM »
There are other groups that have mostly irrelevant tier systems, or distorted tiers, because of how they play. When you have a DM that doesn't rely on rolls for diplomacy, and the campaign centers around intrigue and such, the main encounters are all about the players roleplay skill, and characters become mostly irrelevant.
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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2009, 02:16:13 AM »
Or if, just to give a hypothetical example, your campaign world has large spires, around which magic use is possible, but farther away from which there are greater and greater caster level penalties, making it all but impossible to cast spells, then the magic-reliant tier 1 and 2 become somewhat less impressive.
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Generic_PC

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2009, 02:25:40 AM »
Actually, the game I'm playing now requires Spellcraft checks to cast any spell. It makes ToB really nice.
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JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 3s are in Tier 3.
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2009, 04:11:07 AM »
Actually, the game I'm playing now requires Spellcraft checks to cast any spell. It makes ToB really nice.

I'm assuming Item Familiar isn't allowed in that game.

JaronK