Author Topic: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.  (Read 54866 times)

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Havok4

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2009, 01:21:11 PM »
16,000 gp is a lot at level 13-16?  16,000 is how much it cost to get both weapon crystals to allow rogues to sneak attack undead and constructs.

Sorry if I have the wrong idea of "min/maxing" but I would not consider 16,000 gp on an item that is only useful some of the time to be "breaking the paradigm" (as lycanthmancer puts it).  I could understand if we were talking about a relic or artifact but this is just 2 mundane crystals, making a big deal out of them is kind of silly.  Plus the fact that rogues having these still don't make them tier three, if anything it proves that they belong here since they are dependent on them to be useful in specific conditions while a factotum can just use inspiration points to do something else.  And let's not forget that the greater augment crystals only work on weapons with a +4 modifer so arguing over availinilty is even more rediculous.

Honestly, if you make equipment and items an issue then all classes would by tier 5-6 (on Athas metal is almost nonexistant) and only magic and psionic users even would ever prosper.  It's not like I'm saying "rogues are pretty good if you give them is super dupper artifact". 

Saying you can't use augment crystals is like trying really hard to make rogues tier four, when such arguments were unnecessary to begin with.

I think the issue is that rogue's need things like augment crystals to be effective against certain enemies while other classes can be effective only using their class abilities. Which puts them below others in terms of the tier system. The right equipment can help keep any class useful and rogues are not an exception to this rule.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 01:22:43 PM by Havok4 »

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2009, 02:34:05 PM »
I remember a person once saying this quote, which feels pertinent:

"Ah, Rogues. Your primary combat tactic is entirely invalidated by half the enemies in the game, and you gotta do all that with alchemist's flasks (which you can't make yourself) anyways to be at your best. And your other options? Why, to use other, more expensive items you can't make yourself."

That's one of the reasons that augment crystals aren't that useful in certain builds. Their best weapon (flasks) cannot be used with them...

dark_samuari

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2009, 02:52:30 PM »
I have never played nor seen played a Wilder, so I never ranked it.

I'd propose the same stance would be taken towards it as with limited spell casters. They can still get powers like Bend Reality and Temporal Acceleration. Over all though you lose the versatility of the Psion for an extreme focus on a limited amount of powers (which if you're building a very specific character isn't always a bad thing).

I'd say they fall into tier 3 probably because while limited in scope but with the right selection of powers they can perform well (especially with the Mind Eye's ACF which allows for a mantle).

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2009, 07:23:33 PM »
Barbarian
Pro - Gestalt Warrior/Aristocrat and then you also get Class Features.

Ranger
Pro - Gestalt Warrior/Expert and then you also get Class Features and Spells.


**

Wilder
Compares to Adept and Warmage. "Spell" levels superior to Adept, "Spells" Known inferior to Warmage.
Much more complicated than Warmage, less expandability than either.
Recharge set-up, makes the Wilder a weird Warlock, but more flexible, that shouldn't try to do anything that a Warlock can do.

Mega Con - You have to devote some of your feats or class levels, to undo the weaknesses of the class.
Pro - Psionics are "broken"  ;) , even in the smallest doses. (maybe this is a Con)
Mega Pro - various CO-board type Psionics tricks are available to a Wilder ... which a Psion automatically can do better.

Samb

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2009, 07:40:18 PM »
I have never played nor seen played a Wilder, so I never ranked it.

I'd propose the same stance would be taken towards it as with limited spell casters. They can still get powers like Bend Reality and Temporal Acceleration. Over all though you lose the versatility of the Psion for an extreme focus on a limited amount of powers (which if you're building a very specific character isn't always a bad thing).

I'd say they fall into tier 3 probably because while limited in scope but with the right selection of powers they can perform well (especially with the Mind Eye's ACF which allows for a mantle).
A straight wilder would certainly be tier 4 since it only gets 11 powers over 20 levels.  The educated variant will net another 5 powers from any power list and your usual feats can pick up some more.  Wilder's can get metamorphosis, which opens the door to a variety of things it can do for any given situation.  The mantled variant pigeon holes the wilders by making them even more focused.  The only way to get around that is to constantly do psychic reformations.

Wilder can do two things better than psions: blast and melee.  At the same level they have much better BAB, and higher ML thanks to wild surge.  The 3/4 BAB and SPV combo make for an undying tank even without metamorphosis.

Psions are plain better due to the wider selection of powers they have, but given the same power and same level a wilder will out-perform a psion.  I mean psion have a whooping 36 powers AND access to exclusive discipline powers in 20 levels without any EK or ACF, a wilder with educated ACF doesn't even have half of that (only 15).

Now there are some "cheats" you can do that are legal by RAW, but that would truly break the game (think wilder with all powers and wild surge).

JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2009, 07:51:33 PM »
16,000 gp is a lot at level 13-16?  16,000 is how much it cost to get both weapon crystals to allow rogues to sneak attack undead and constructs.

Except that most people don't play at 13-16.  The majority of games, from what I've seen (including forum surveys) indicate that the vast majority of games are played well below that level.  Furthermore, Greater Augment Crystals require a +3 or higher weapon... you can't place them on less, so either you need to pay out the nose for those weapons, or you need a Wizard or Cleric to help you out with Greater Magic Weapon, and I always rank a class lower when their ticket to power is "get a Wizard to buff you."  

Now consider that the Greater Demolition Crystal is 6kgp... per weapon.  And as a damage dealing Rogue, you're probably dual wielding.  The Truedeath Crystal is 10kgp... per weapon.  So, at minimum it's going to be 32kgp just to make your primary combat class ability functional on those two types of critters (but not oozes, or perhaps certain elementals with no discernable anatomy).  That's virtually all of a 9th level character's wealth by level.  If you need to buy your own +3 weapons (not every group has a Wizard or Cleric, and not every Wizard or Cleric will buff you anyway, so let's not rely on those), then that's another 18kgp per weapon, for a grand total cost of 68kgp to make your sneak attack work.  Level 12 is the first time you could hope to get that much, and it's still almost a quarter of your Wealth By Level at level 16.

So please, don't downplay those costs.  They're VERY significant.  And that 32k-68kgp you just spent?  That's just to make your abilities function.  That still doesn't change the fact that you're a d6 HD light armored class with insignificant special defensive abilities who is often expected to flank, meaning they have to get away from the party and right next to the enemies.  That's critically dangerous.

JaronK

Samb

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2009, 08:11:37 PM »
16,000 gp is a lot at level 13-16?  16,000 is how much it cost to get both weapon crystals to allow rogues to sneak attack undead and constructs.

Except that most people don't play at 13-16.  The majority of games, from what I've seen (including forum surveys) indicate that the vast majority of games are played well below that level.  Furthermore, Greater Augment Crystals require a +3 or higher weapon... you can't place them on less, so either you need to pay out the nose for those weapons, or you need a Wizard or Cleric to help you out with Greater Magic Weapon, and I always rank a class lower when their ticket to power is "get a Wizard to buff you."  

Now consider that the Greater Demolition Crystal is 6kgp... per weapon.  And as a damage dealing Rogue, you're probably dual wielding.  The Truedeath Crystal is 10kgp... per weapon.  So, at minimum it's going to be 32kgp just to make your primary combat class ability functional on those two types of critters (but not oozes, or perhaps certain elementals with no discernable anatomy).  That's virtually all of a 9th level character's wealth by level.  If you need to buy your own +3 weapons (not every group has a Wizard or Cleric, and not every Wizard or Cleric will buff you anyway, so let's not rely on those), then that's another 18kgp per weapon, for a grand total cost of 68kgp to make your sneak attack work.  Level 12 is the first time you could hope to get that much, and it's still almost a quarter of your Wealth By Level at level 16.

So please, don't downplay those costs.  They're VERY significant.  And that 32k-68kgp you just spent?  That's just to make your abilities function.  That still doesn't change the fact that you're a d6 HD light armored class with insignificant special defensive abilities who is often expected to flank, meaning they have to get away from the party and right next to the enemies.  That's critically dangerous.

JaronK
You misunderstood me.  Items should be assumed to equally available to all characters or the whole tier system that you proposed is on shakey ground.  A rogue even with both crystals will not be tier 3, just like a +5 holy avenger will not make a pally tier 4.  When you judge a class it should be based on all the resources it has at its disposal. 

Melee naturally need to spend more on gear, to say that they encounter a restriction on money while spell slingers do not is automatically setting up a bias where the spell and power users are superior.  Can I safely assume that all the feats in all the books are for the picking just like how all the spells/powers will be there for a mage?  Can I assume that any gear in any source is there for my use just like how you take your spell components for granted?

Rogue belongs in tier 4 because it's just not quite there, but limiting its options on what gear it can and can't use is purely arbitrary and I would say that same statement for any class not just rogue.

JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2009, 08:15:52 PM »
Ah, and my point was simply that part of the reason the Rogue is low is because his primary combat ability (sneak attack), which he needs if he's going to be effective in combat, is unreliable at best.  Too many things are immune to it, overcoming immunity is too costly and difficult, and too many things are very hard to use it on.  Plus, it doesn't do all that much damage anyway.  This makes the Rogue quite possibly useless or a liability in many combats (something that always frustrated me when I played one), and being incapable of contributing in such a common situation is a hallmark of T4 and below.

JaronK

Samb

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2009, 08:37:57 PM »
First you asked a damage dealer if they would spend money on dealing more damage.  Any damage dealer would emphatically say yes and I would have sworn you were being rhetorical until you answered your own question. 

Second, sneak is nothing awe-inspiring but with the right feats it can be quite lethal as with any build.  Let's see, in 20 levels rogue you could do 10d8r1+20 (craven, scared strike and deadly precision) points of damage with each strike if you have a flanking partner and you are using TWF so you will prolly hit 3-4 times out of 6.  So like 30-40d8 on each full attack.  It's no king of smack but not too shabby either. 

Yes it took 6 feats to get there but any smart player with half a brain picks feats that will maximize his strengths and use whatever he can to minimize his flaws.  Don't me wrong I think rogue needs work and I am often frustrated playing them but what gear it has access to is not the reason.  It is more like, despite the items it has open to them they still suck compared to a Factotum.

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2009, 08:57:24 PM »
The issue here is that Rogues are able to contribute in combat primarily thanks to Sneak Attack, which simply does not work on most creatures unless you get items that can fix that, which you cannot get until level ~10. So, for half of your career, you encounter enemies that are outright unaffected by the main reason you are worth using in combat. And then, after about level 10, you have problems using Sneak Attack a bit less often! Woo! This is a real problem that Rogues have to deal with, and those items do not solve the problem, but deal with a few instances of a problem associated with it.

Samb, optimization can bring up any class a few tiers.

JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2009, 11:26:41 PM »
First you asked a damage dealer if they would spend money on dealing more damage.  Any damage dealer would emphatically say yes and I would have sworn you were being rhetorical until you answered your own question. 

Only if they could afford it.  The point is that for the most part, Rogues can't.  The other point is that all of this does nothing to help their damage dealing against everyone else... all it does is allow them to use their primary damage ability against undead and constructs.  The question is more "as a damage dealer, would you spend an incredible amount of money to become effective against a subset of your opponents?"  That's not rhetorical.  Heck, any melee could invest in a pair of Undead Bane Light Maces of Disruption too, but they usually don't, because they want to spend their money on things that work against everyone.

Remember, when a Barbarian wants to spend money on more damage, he doesn't have to spend money just to be able to use his abilities.  His Rage or his Pounce both work quite effectively no matter who he's fighting (assuming he can charge, of course).  So instead of wasting all that money that a Rogue might, he can spend it on getting better weapons (I'm partial to a +1 Valorous Lance).

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Second, sneak is nothing awe-inspiring but with the right feats it can be quite lethal as with any build.  Let's see, in 20 levels rogue you could do 10d8r1+20 (craven, scared strike and deadly precision) points of damage with each strike if you have a flanking partner and you are using TWF so you will prolly hit 3-4 times out of 6.  So like 30-40d8 on each full attack.  It's no king of smack but not too shabby either. 

Yes it took 6 feats to get there but any smart player with half a brain picks feats that will maximize his strengths and use whatever he can to minimize his flaws. 

Those same six feats on a melee class could be spent on something like Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, and Spirited Charge.  They could then spend far less money than your two +3 weapons with their crystals on a +1 Valorous Lance and a Tooth of Leraje.  Suddenly, they have X4 damage on the charge and for a full BAB class can get an extra +180 from power attack and then Greater Magic Weapon.  In fact, a Rogue (who somehow got proficiency, perhaps by making it a Skillful +1 Valorous Lance) could get +120 damage on the charge this way, for a total of 4d8+140+6*str mod damage.  That's actually higher than the sneak attack damage you listed, and easier to do, and works on everyone... and it's still cheaper than what you listed for gear.  And more stunningly... a commoner could do it too.

The point is, sneak attack is too ineffective, which makes Rogues useless a lot of the time.

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Don't me wrong I think rogue needs work and I am often frustrated playing them but what gear it has access to is not the reason.  It is more like, despite the items it has open to them they still suck compared to a Factotum.

Certainly the Factotum blows them away.  But gear is a specific issue for Rogues, because they need very specific things to fix the flaws in their class features, as well as to make any good use of UMD.  A Rogue cares a lot more about the specific gear they have than a Barbarian, for example.

JaronK

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2009, 11:46:43 PM »
Warmage:
Pro: Versatile spellcaster + heighten spell is a great, and only works for the warmage, dread necro, and beguile 'er, I 'ardly know 'er. 
Pro: After level 16, an optimized warmage will have taken the full Rainbow Servant prestige class, and is now able cast everything from the cleric list spontaneously. 
Con: This relies on text overriding tables, which, though official, may grate for some DMs.  And you're still pretty weak for your first fifteen or so levels (early entry tricks notwithstanding).
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dark_samuari

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2009, 11:53:45 PM »
A straight wilder would certainly be tier 4 since it only gets 11 powers over 20 levels.  The educated variant will net another 5 powers from any power list and your usual feats can pick up some more.  Wilder's can get metamorphosis, which opens the door to a variety of things it can do for any given situation.  The mantled variant pigeon holes the wilders by making them even more focused.  The only way to get around that is to constantly do psychic reformations.

Wilder can do two things better than psions: blast and melee.  At the same level they have much better BAB, and higher ML thanks to wild surge.  The 3/4 BAB and SPV combo make for an undying tank even without metamorphosis.

Psions are plain better due to the wider selection of powers they have, but given the same power and same level a wilder will out-perform a psion.  I mean psion have a whooping 36 powers AND access to exclusive discipline powers in 20 levels without any EK or ACF, a wilder with educated ACF doesn't even have half of that (only 15).

Now there are some "cheats" you can do that are legal by RAW, but that would truly break the game (think wilder with all powers and wild surge).

So your argument is that psions outclass wilders in almost every situation, and as true as that is, that isn't what we should be judging this by. We should be judging & analyzing the wilder alone and by itself.

For example, a rather simple Shifter Educated Wilder 20 possesses: Astral Caravan, Astral Construct, Bend Reality, Greater Metamorphosis, Empathic Transfer, Energy Missle, Dispel Psionics, Inertial Armor, Psionic Divination, Psionic Dominate, Psionic Restoration, Psionic Revivify, Reality Revision, Temporal Acceleration, and Vigor. The wilder, while built for a utility build can alter reality, stop time, look into the future, enslave, summon creatures, travel through the planes, sufficiently heal (and raise the dead), polymorph and still help out in combat. Now I fail to see how that is equal the abilities of a barbarian or hexblade.   

Negative Zero

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2009, 01:53:22 AM »
Would you agree that the Educated Wilder belongs in a different tier than the standard one?

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2009, 02:04:08 AM »
In addition, they can grab spells with all those Expanded Knowledge feats, thanks to their friend the Erudite turning them into powers.

Even without going there, though, they can be quite impressive as a melee build. Schism, Metamorphosis, Lion's Charge, Vampiric Blade (my favorite). They have so many options for what powers they can take. Slap on four levels of Slayer at the end of any career and you're above the tier 3s in combat capabilities (and they have the Warblade and Psychic Warrior. What does the Psychic Warrior have the Wilder doesn't? 'Cause it sure as Hell isn't a full casting progression).

If I had to guess at it, I'd say the Wilder is somewhere between tier 2 and tier 3 now that I look at it. Sure, they have the slower "I don't get anything until level four" problem, but so does the Sorc, and he's tier 2. The Wilder certainly has more potential than anything on tier 3 (not counting adding spells to their lists). dark_samurai's Wilder build he just posted can do *almost* anything a psion can, and some things it can't. They can grab Heal (or damn close) off the Ardent list. They are extremely versatile.

What's with all the hate for the Wilder? Sure, it gets annoying when they tug on their braid yet again, but if you can look past that, you'll find something that can do a little more than you'd expect at first glance.

Would you agree that the Educated Wilder belongs in a different tier than the standard one?

(That was posted while I was typing this)

I don't think so. Sure, the four extra powers helps, but you can take EK anyway. Full manifesting, while being able to choose from such a diverse list as the psion list, is still uber powerful. Sure, maybe it's not OVER 9000!!!, but I think we just need to take a step back and realize how much of the Sorcerer mojo the little Wilder has going, i.e. how many times over do you need to be able to destroy the world?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 02:08:07 AM by ErhnamDJ »

Samb

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2009, 02:06:27 AM »
JaronK: What gear a class has access to should be factored into how they rank, but it seems to a double standard when it comes to rogues.  Indeed any warrior could pick up a undead bane disrupting heavy mace (your example), hence they are considered more effective against undead than a warrior without one.  Weapon selection would clearly make a big difference.  

Also, you state that undead and constructs are only subsets of the baddies a rogue will come up against, so then why should I even factor in the fact that sneak attack doesn't work on only a fraction of encounters?  The way everyone is going on you'd think we were in Ravenloft or something.

I mean you are working really hard to convince me that rogues suck when I more or less agree with you, limiting access to gear for a class that you even admitted needed gear the most is only reinforcing the idea that there is a double standard for making rogue terrible and does little justice for the tier system that you made.

I've always played thief in AD&D, trust me when I say 3.5's sneak attack is MUCH MUCH better than back stab.  

So your argument is that psions outclass wilders in almost every situation, and as true as that is, that isn't what we should be judging this by. We should be judging & analyzing the wilder alone and by itself.

For example, a rather simple Shifter Educated Wilder 20 possesses: Astral Caravan, Astral Construct, Bend Reality, Greater Metamorphosis, Empathic Transfer, Energy Missle, Dispel Psionics, Inertial Armor, Psionic Divination, Psionic Dominate, Psionic Restoration, Psionic Revivify, Reality Revision, Temporal Acceleration, and Vigor. The wilder, while built for a utility build can alter reality, stop time, look into the future, enslave, summon creatures, travel through the planes, sufficiently heal (and raise the dead), polymorph and still help out in combat. Now I fail to see how that is equal the abilities of a barbarian or hexblade.   
Gah, energy missile?  Such a n00b waste of an EK, where's share pain (I'd go plane shift instead of astral caravan)? well surging euphoria acts similar to rage in some ways hence the comparison.  It's like saying psywar is the psionic version of fighter, even though it is painfully obvious that psywar would own a fighter.  A wilder would destroy a barbarian or hexblade, but non-psionic users need some frame of reference, especially when it comes to such an unappreciated class like wilder.

Well I think you raise some good points, with the alter reality power chains you can duplicate any power under level 9, hence giving you a way to deal with any situation, and at higher ML thanks to wild surge than a psion only problem is that it costs XP to use them.  By that token wilders might be tier 2.

I do have an educated wilder9/thrallherd1/cognition thief 10 build that by RAW let's me get every power in the game, and the tattoo mastery feat that makes the whole process cost no XP (both in my sig).  This build would easily be tier 1 but also get you banned for making the game un-fun.

Samb

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2009, 02:25:35 AM »
In addition, they can grab spells with all those Expanded Knowledge feats, thanks to their friend the Erudite turning them into powers.

Even without going there, though, they can be quite impressive as a melee build. Schism, Metamorphosis, Lion's Charge, Vampiric Blade (my favorite). They have so many options for what powers they can take. Slap on four levels of Slayer at the end of any career and you're above the tier 3s in combat capabilities (and they have the Warblade and Psychic Warrior. What does the Psychic Warrior have the Wilder doesn't? 'Cause it sure as Hell isn't a full casting progression).
First off let me say that I love wilders.  But they do have their shortcomings and narrow power selection coupled with low amounts of powers makes for their biggest weakness.  The powers that you listed are NOT normally available to wilders.  Schism is telepathy only, metamorphosis is egoist or natural world mantle, lion's charge is psywar or conflict mantle, and vamp blade is psywar.  This is why the ACFs are so great, they solve both problems all in one swoop.  And slayer is not as good as sanctioned mind for wilders since sanctioned mind can bypass daze and stun effects...... no need to worry about enervation now.

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If I had to guess at it, I'd say the Wilder is somewhere between tier 2 and tier 3 now that I look at it. Sure, they have the slower "I don't get anything until level four" problem, but so does the Sorc, and he's tier 2. The Wilder certainly has more potential than anything on tier 3 (not counting adding spells to their lists). dark_samurai's Wilder build he just posted can do *almost* anything a psion can, and some things it can't. They can grab Heal (or damn close) off the Ardent list. They are extremely versatile.
When you factor in the bend reality power chain then not only can do what a psion can do, they can do it BETTER.  I'd say solid tier 2, if tattoo mastery was used then even more brownie points for not even bothering to spend XP.
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What's with all the hate for the Wilder? Sure, it gets annoying when they tug on their braid yet again, but if you can look past that, you'll find something that can do a little more than you'd expect at first glance.
Everyone is scared off by the psychic enervation without even realizing that having +2 ML 90% far out weighs being dazed 10% of the time.  Plus the fact that with schism you don't even lose a turn.....
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Would you agree that the Educated Wilder belongs in a different tier than the standard one?

(That was posted while I was typing this)

I don't think so. Sure, the four extra powers helps, but you can take EK anyway. Full manifesting, while being able to choose from such a diverse list as the psion list, is still uber powerful. Sure, maybe it's not OVER 9000!!!, but I think we just need to take a step back and realize how much of the Sorcerer mojo the little Wilder has going, i.e. how many times over do you need to be able to destroy the world?
I would have to disagree with you here.  Educated wilder just gave you 4 free EKs, which means 4 feats that you can spend on linked power, metapower, and other melee feats.  Know why everyone loves psywar?  They have the cool feats, with educated ACF you come pretty darn close.

dark_samuari

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2009, 02:32:53 AM »
So have I swayed the public?

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2009, 02:45:39 AM »
The biggest problems with the wilder are that the class abilities are crap, don't synergize particularly well, Overchannel is considerably better than wild surge/enervation (especially since the higher level in wilder you are, the closer your chances of enervation reach 100%), and you pay for all of those less-than-awesome class abilities with a retarded power list (meaning 'impeded,' rather than...oh, hell. It's 'retarded' in both senses of the word), and only 1 power known every other level.

I really have to say that wilder is probably my least favorite class in the book (because soulknives at least have the coolness factor going for them).

However, I'd probably rate them a mid-to-high tier 3, just for having psionic powers and so many power points. They'd be considerably higher if enervation weren't such a gawd-awful mechanic.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 02:47:27 AM by Lycanthromancer »
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 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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Samb

  • Curious George
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Re: Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2009, 03:03:01 AM »
The biggest problems with the wilder are that the class abilities are crap, don't synergize particularly well, Overchannel is considerably better than wild surge/enervation (especially since the higher level in wilder you are, the closer your chances of enervation reach 100%), and you pay for all of those less-than-awesome class abilities with a retarded power list (meaning 'impeded,' rather than...oh, hell. It's 'retarded' in both senses of the word), and only 1 power known every other level.

Overchannel is unusable in early level due to granenteed damage (what was psion's hit dice again?) while enervation is only a slight chance and overchannel scales slower than wild surge. At its worst, your power is will work fine 70% of the time at +6ML, so I don't know where you got 100% from.  The PP you lose is affected by your wilder level, but your chances of being dazed are affected only by your wild surge level something that you can pick before you manifest (i personally don't go higher than +3).  I'm a bit disappointed in you lycan, as a self professed guru of psionics that you have such little understanding of how wilders should be played or even how they work.

class features that you claim are terrible:
wild surge: for a slight chance (5-30) of being dazed and losing some PP you can boost you ML.  Beats the crap out of overchannel by scaling faster and usually having no side effects (other than kicking ass) restricting yourself to +3 you only have 15% chance of enervating.  Does +3 ML make that much of a difference?  Do I even need to ask?  Schism will completely negate this (however slight) risk.

surging euphoria: almost makes up your wilder have full BAB.  This just makes wild surge even more attractive and to remind everyone that wilders are strikers.  The more intense your surge the longer it lasts.  I don't think it will work when you are schismed though.  Too bad.

Elude touch: your mileage may vary but I personally like that my CHR gives me bonuses on touch attack AC.  In a ray shotting duel elude touch has saved my ass (well my 3/4 BAB and surging euphoria might have helped more....)

I will agree that volatile mind is garbage but we have a ACF to handle that and makes it great by giving us moar powers that we desperately need.

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I really have to say that wilder is probably my least favorite class in the book (because soulknives at least have the coolness factor going for them).

However, I'd probably rate them a mid-to-high tier 3, just for having psionic powers and so many power points. They'd be considerably higher if enervation weren't such a gawd-awful mechanic.
I'm sorry you don't like them but it doesn't change the fact that they rock  :D  I don't have a problem with wild surge or enervation because you usually come out on top.  I have crunched the numbers and you are feel to look them up in my wilder handbook 2, or you can just take my word for it, wild surge will give you more effective PP for most of your career as a wilder.  Yes, more than a psion even.


So have I swayed the public?
Yeah I'd say so!  Not that I needed swaying since I heart wilders very much, but was disappointed that they were not ranked, or even mentioned.  Reality revision plus wild surge could give psions a real run for their money.  Now it almost seems like we are debating if it is tier 2 or on 1....... Maybe I'll put a post up in the OG thread for a more official placement.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 03:17:11 AM by Samb »