Why Tier 4s are in Tier 4.

[Chaos josh]

Marshall, at first glance (or in my eyes):

Pros:
Mid Bab, d8 HD, 2 good saves, and the ability to use any Martial weapon, shield (but tower), and armor make it an adequate front line fighter (not the best, mind, but adequate). Auras are activated by a swift action (handy). Diplomacy on a Cha-based class, including free Skill focus (Diplomacy) and an aura adding Cha twice to those checks is nifty. Can grant move actions (which is very useful on a group of Melee classes). Free Skill Focus also means that Exemplar builds are plausible, especially depending on the Auras chosen. Intimidate is a class skill and it's a Cha-based class, although not as good as being able to do it swiftly. Circumstance bonuses on things other than skills are handy.

Cons:
Outranked by Clerics (of course), but also by Bards (Basically auras with caster levels), Factotums (get int/level to certain skills per encounter), and most ToB classes (White Raven does it better). Has no way of swapping out useless auras. Very little support in outside books. Approximately 5 dead levels (including levels where only 1 aura is gained) (6, 10, 11, 13, and 18). Low number of Auras known if multiclassing. Auras are somewhat restricted (60', must hear/understand, int above 3 (problems occur with animals/mindless undead, etc.), and is canceled if she is dazed, unconscious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies.) Circumstance bonuses on skills are common, and much higher than what you can probably give.

[JaronK]

As a note, Marshal 1 is a classic dip for Diplomancers (combined with Binder 1 for Naberius and Warlock 1 for their charming invocation).  Marshal is also incredible in low level army situations... a one or two Marshal 2s leading a group of Crusader 1s makes for a devastating low level unit.

JaronK

[Generic_PC]

If one Marshal has an aura on, and another marshal has the same aura on, do they stack?

[ninjarabbit]

Hexblade

Cons: The hexblade's signature abilty, the curse, is pretty weaksauce by itself and you can only use it a few timesper day. Hexblades can only cast a handful of spells per day and it's a half-caster, meaning you'll have to blow a feat on practiced spellcaster. Speaking of feats most hexblade builds are tight on feats and skill points. The bonus feats a hexblade gets are almost worthless. Hexblades are limited to light armor, not good for a class expected to be on the frontlines.


Pros: The hexblade's spell list has quite a few gems on it like charm person, alter self, glitterdust, invisibility, slow, hound of doom, and polymorph (which qualifies the hexblade for the Minor Shapeshift reserve feat). The hexblade gets better action economy than most melee-types since many of it's abilites are free and swift actions. And since the hexblade has d10 hit dice and full BAB that means it's familiar is pretty durable, making improved familiar a viable feat choice. Arcane resistance is almost as good as divine grace and dark blessing  and stacks with those so it's something to consider when multiclassing.

The hexblade is one of the few classes that gets mettle. Hexblades have a pretty good set of class skills, including all the social skills, ride (good for an improved familiar), and the main arcane spellcasting skills. The dark companion variant is an easy and free way to start debuffing a foe. Many of the debuffing feats and abilities like dreadful wrath and frightful presence are cha-based so it synergizes well with the hexblade.


Overall the hexblade fills the niche of a debuffing warrior decently and would make a good bodyguard/cohort/tank for a spellcaster who uses quite a few save-or-x spells. It does take a moderate level of optimization skill and quite a few splatbooks to make a hexblade work since there isn't much of a margin of error in most hexblade builds.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added: Ninjarabbit's description of the Hexblade, JaronK's note on Marshal dips, and Chaos Josh's Marshal description.

Keep it up 

[ninjarabbit]

Ranger:

The ranger might be the most average class in D&D. It doesn't suck but it doesn't really do anything too well. I'd generally avoid the two weapon fighting combat style and stick to the archery combat style to be an effective ranger.

Cons: Rangers are limited to light armor and only have a d8 hit dice, a problem to those who went the two weapon fighting route. Rangers by themselves don't have a high damage output, especially when fighting against non-favored enemies. Rangers suffer from MAD: needing a decent dex, con, wis, int, and str to be effective. The ranger's animal companion is way too weak to even consider using in combat. Rangers are half-casters so their spells won't be too reliable in combat without a few tricks.

Pros: Rangers get 5 bonus feats total and they don't have to meet any prequisites for their combat feats. 6 skill points/level and a pretty good set of class skills are a very nice thing. Rangers have enough class variants across many splatbooks to keep things interesting. Rangers multiclass well with scouts, paladins, and monks thanks to the class-combo feats. Rangers do have a solid spell list, especially if you have access to certain splatbooks.

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added Ninjarabbit's ranger description.

[Chaos josh]

If one Marshal has an aura on, and another marshal has the same aura on, do they stack?

No, unfortunately.

[JaronK]

The level 4 Hexblade ACF is worth mentioning.  Dark Companion is AWESOME and makes Hexblade 4 a great combination with Paladin of Tyranny 3 or Binder.  -4 (or even -6) to all saves around you is incredibly potent, especially combined with charisma to saves multiple times.  Consider something like Factotum 1/Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Ur Priest 1/Bone Knight 10, for example (Factotum's there mostly to get the skill points needed for the PrCs).

And no, Marshal auras that do the same thing don't stack, but having two Marshals with different auras can be handy.

JaronK

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added JaronK's note about the Hexblade alternative class feature.

When we get a description for the Scout, Spellthief, and Dungeon Crasher variant fighter, I'll move on to tier 3 classes.  Im excited with the way this is panning out 

[Havok4]

Okay I guess I will try to rate scout.

[spoiler]Pro: The main source of damage for this class is skirmish which can be easier to consistently activate than sneak attack. Also you get defensive buffs as part of skirmish as well. The entire class is based around movement and it gets many ability such as fast movement and eventually continuous freedom of movement. The class makes for a good trap finder and has 8+int skill points per level and a good skill list. You also get very nice stealth bonuses such as hide in plain sight and camouflage, which are identical to the ranger features but come much earlier. The bonus feats help keep the class versatile and also for greater flexibility when building the character. Also it is tougher then the closest equivalent class, the rogue, due to battle fortitude and a d8 hit die. And the capstone ability of the class is blind sight which is very nice. Also all abilities are extraordinary which makes them very hard to shut down. All in all they fit a very similar role to that of a rogue in the party.

Con: A very large number of creatures are immune to skirmish which limits its viability. It also takes a significant investment to full attack and activate skirmish and that is usually necessary to do a large amount of damage. Most of the class abilities are done by spells much earlier then the scout gets them. An example is true seeing as it is actually better in some ways then the scout's capstone ability and clerics have been using that spell since level 9. Another big issue is that lack of use magic device on the scout's skill list which limits the options of the class and often keeps it from being viable at higher levels. To be effective as a class you usually need to focus on a specific combat style and this limits your options. The biggest issue with the scout is that their primary purpose, Scouting, can be done from the safety of home with the right divination magic, making their whole purpose somewhat redundant. [/spoiler]

An additional note, the class works very well when multiclassed with ranger, due to the swift hunter feat, which makes ranger and scout levels stack for determining skirmish and favored enemies. Also it allows skirmish damage to be done to the favored enemies regardless of immunity,  which reduces the weaknesses of the class. There is also a great deal of synergy between the two classes.

[Samb]

Added Samb's rogue description.

In the future Samb, would you mind clarifying your view a bit more? In the begining it sounds like you're saying rogues are the best at their job, and then towards the end you say that Factotums are just better. I was a little on the fence about what to add to the guide from your post. It made me do one of these guys  

Thanks  

Not my intention to confuse you.  Basically, rogue would be a tier three if it wasn't for the fact that factotum and beguilers are just as good experts and still able to do other things better than rogues.  Rogues are basically tier 4 just because those classes exist and not really due to any real fault of their own.

I have also seen people argue that a rogue might not have access to the item that allow them to sneak attack on a regular basis.  Which is funny because we assume wizards will always have their spell components.  This is min/maxing, and we should assume all things are equally available to all classes.  For all intents and purposes sneak attack can and will affect all enemies a PC can encounter given enough research.

What tier are wilders in?  I'd nominate them for tier 4 since they resemble barbarians and warlocks, and wild surge combined with only 15 (using educated variant) powers in 20 levels make it very good at one thing but lacking in other fields (the definition of tier four).

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I have also seen people argue that a rogue might not have access to the item that allow them to sneak attack on a regular basis.  Which is funny because we assume wizards will always have their spell components.  This is min/maxing, and we should assume all things are equally available to all classes.  For all intents and purposes sneak attack can and will affect all enemies a PC can encounter given enough research.

I think there's a bit of a difference between a 5 gp purchase from the PHB and sneak attack magic items.

[Runestar]

It appears many of these classes excel as 1-2 lv dips, but pretty much suck afterwards. Seems like the designers simply does not bother playtesting their classes past low lvs, and rely on them improving by a marginal amount every few lvs to extrapolate the remainder. Then they try to fix those classes with feats like daring outlaw or swift hunter (which actually works, to an extent).

Well, that's wotc for you. 

[Lycanthromancer]

Not to mention that it isn't 'min-maxing' at all. That's a totally different paradigm (and one that you, Samb, have misused several times, I think...).

[Gr1lledcheese]

Added Havok4's Scout description and his note on scout/ranger multiclassing.

At Samb: Wilder is not on the Tier list.

[dark_samuari]

At Samb: Wilder is not on the Tier list.

Why?

[ErhnamDJ]

At Samb: Wilder is not on the Tier list.

Why?

My guess is that it is because no one has ever played a Wilder, to see it in action. Personally, I'd put it about on par with the limited casters (Beguiler and Dread Necro). It is a full caster after all. Tier 4? Hahaha.

[JaronK]

Not my intention to confuse you.  Basically, rogue would be a tier three if it wasn't for the fact that factotum and beguilers are just as good experts and still able to do other things better than rogues.  Rogues are basically tier 4 just because those classes exist and not really due to any real fault of their own.

I disagree with that, and consider Rogues to pretty much define Tier 4.  I'll try and find my post on the skillmonkeys in general later, but I feel that the Factotum was created specifically to deal with the Rogue problems. 

I have also seen people argue that a rogue might not have access to the item that allow them to sneak attack on a regular basis.  Which is funny because we assume wizards will always have their spell components.  This is min/maxing, and we should assume all things are equally available to all classes.  For all intents and purposes sneak attack can and will affect all enemies a PC can encounter given enough research.

Spell components are VERY easy to get, usually coming in the spell component pouch (and otherwise being a generic nonmagic item of cheap value).  That's not true for something like the Truedeath Crystal, which is FAR more expensive (and thus far less available by the DMG) and only available if you've got MIC.  Wands of Gravestrike in my opinion are not a viable solution, due to a variety of complications involved.  Oozes are still pretty impossible to sneak attack, and many enemies are just hard to sneak attack (such as those with Blindsight and a very dangerous full attack).

What tier are wilders in?  I'd nominate them for tier 4 since they resemble barbarians and warlocks, and wild surge combined with only 15 (using educated variant) powers in 20 levels make it very good at one thing but lacking in other fields (the definition of tier four).

I have never played nor seen played a Wilder, so I never ranked it.

JaronK

[Samb]

16,000 gp is a lot at level 13-16?  16,000 is how much it cost to get both weapon crystals to allow rogues to sneak attack undead and constructs.

Sorry if I have the wrong idea of "min/maxing" but I would not consider 16,000 gp on an item that is only useful some of the time to be "breaking the paradigm" (as lycanthmancer puts it).  I could understand if we were talking about a relic or artifact but this is just 2 mundane crystals, making a big deal out of them is kind of silly.  Plus the fact that rogues having these still don't make them tier three, if anything it proves that they belong here since they are dependent on them to be useful in specific conditions while a factotum can just use inspiration points to do something else.  And let's not forget that the greater augment crystals only work on weapons with a +4 modifer so arguing over availinilty is even more rediculous.

Honestly, if you make equipment and items an issue then all classes would by tier 5-6 (on Athas metal is almost nonexistant) and only magic and psionic users even would ever prosper.  It's not like I'm saying "rogues are pretty good if you give them is super dupper artifact". 

Saying you can't use augment crystals is like trying really hard to make rogues tier four, when such arguments were unnecessary to begin with.